Grand Prix Masters... missing the point? (merged)
#1
Posted 03 September 2004 - 16:10
Crowds will flock from everywhere to see Mansell spin on a white line on the final lap whilst waving to the crowd. Soaked in petrol he will push the car across the finish line before collapsing on the podium and bumping his forehead. I think not.
Someone has missed the point. Why, at great expense, build boring Euro-standard cars for these past heroes. There is a rich seam of historic Williams, Lotuses, Brabhams etc that would fit the bill (and possibly the bums) readily available.
Rosberg reunited with his Williams re-living his 160mph qualifier at Silverstone, I'll be there...
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#2
Posted 03 September 2004 - 17:02
#3
Posted 03 September 2004 - 18:39
#4
Posted 04 August 2005 - 14:53
http://www.gpmasters.com/LONDON (0900GMT) 4th August 2005: Some of the greatest and most legendary names in world motorsport are preparing to be reunited in a ‘world-first’ Grand Prix Masters Series. The Altech Grand Prix Masters of South Africa will be the inaugural event for the 2006 series and takes place in Kyalami on 11th – 13th November - a circuit Grand Prix racing last visited back in 1993.
The international cast of champions and characters boast a treasure trove of history between them and include Emerson Fittipaldi (Brazil), Alain Prost (France), Ricardo Patrese (Italy), Alan Jones (Australia), Stefan Johansson (Sweden), Andrea de Cesaris (Italy), René Arnoux (France), Jan Lammers (Netherlands) and Christian Danner (Germany) to name but a few with other names due to be announced shortly. Between 14 and 16 cars are anticipated for the inaugural grid in Kyalami with the total prize fund for the opening race being $500,000. The minimum age criteria is set at 45 years of age.
Brazilian racing legend Emerson Fittipaldi (twice F1 World Champion, Indy 500 winner, and CART Champion) expressed his anticipation at the prospect of being reacquainted with his former adversaries:
“I'm very excited about the Grand Prix Masters World Series. Reuniting champions and great drivers from the past in a racing environment where we'll have very powerful cars with minimal technological driver-aids will make for great entertainment and fun for both the drivers and spectators alike. The ingredients for an extremely compelling series are all here.”
Awaiting the arrival of the protagonists will be 600 brake horse power machines capable of exceeding over 200mph! The all-new single seater race car has been designed and built by Delta Motorsport (Northamptonshire, UK). Powered by an 80-degree 3.5-litre V8 Nicholson McLaren Cosworth engine, the Grand Prix Masters cars will produce in excess of 600bhp. Based on the highly successful Cosworth XB Indycar engine, Nicholson McLaren have developed this normally-aspirated version offering more than 600bhp at 10,400rpm while maximum torque is achieved at over 320 lb ft at 7,800rpm. The engine combines compact dimensions, minimum weight, maximum strength and awesome power output. The 650kg cars (excluding driver) will be equipped with a six-speed paddle shift gearbox and at the opening race in Kyalami, drivers are expected to be exposed to corning g-loads of around 2.5g! Electronic driver aids have been kept to a minimum and a stable aerodynamic platform has been defined in an effort to maximise driver input, involvement and overtaking.
Scott Poulter, CEO Grand Prix Masters said: “The Grand Prix Masters World Series will feature the gladiators from a romantic era where daredevil drivers wrestled unforgiving machines to high duel on the open race track. The pioneers and champions from that era will be reunited on 13th November in what promises to be a spectacular curtain raiser to our 2006 World Series. While many are finalised, there are still negotiations taking place with several circuits and promoters about next year and at this stage, we haven’t ruled anything out – including the possibility of a street race in North America!”
A maximum if 16 cars will form the inaugural grid with a total of 20 being considered for the 2006 championship. The technical and safety compliance application for both cars and circuits is currently in process with the FIA (governing body of motor sport worldwide).
Alan Jones (Australia) gave the WilliamsF1 team its first Constructor’s World Championship back in 1980 and has lost little of his racing instinct: “Some of us haven’t raced for nearly 25 years but rest assured we will be ready and hungry on 13th November. Once you get behind the wheel of a racing car you want nothing but victory. We all have egos and we all think we are better than each other and when those red lights go out in Kyalami in around ten weeks from now, the desire and commitment will be nothing short of absolute.”
The protagonists who for many years generated the high drama and greatest sporting spectacles of all time are aiming to treat fans with not only an epic show but also open accessibility to those attending race events. Various concepts and promotions are being discussed and finalised with the aim being to bring the fans closer than ever to their heroes, the machinery and ultimately, the spectacle.
“The fans are by far our priority audience with Grand Prix Masters,” continued Scott. “Put another way, our aim is to deliver NASCAR-style entertainment values whereby fans, spectators and enthusiasts alike can all identify with the excitement and personalities involved. Comprehensive worldwide broadcast syndication rights with live transmissions will help boost significantly the reach and appeal of former world champions brought to life in a modern and contemporary environment,” said Scott. “Speed, excitement, dramatic confrontation and gladiatorial combat amongst some of the greatest and fearless names in motor racing is what fans want. Combined with extremely powerful machines with minimal technological driver-aids and what you have is a purist’s dream and one which we are all very excited about.”
On the medical side, The Grand Masters World Series is delighted to announce the appointment of Dr Stephen Olvey M.D. as Chief Medical Officer. Dr Olvey is best known in motor sport as leading the development of safety in Champ Car where he held the position of Chief Medical Officer for over 20 years and is widely credited as leading the team that saved the life of Alex Zanardi after his horrific accident during a Champ Car race in Germany in 2001. Steve has worked with most of the drivers on the current roster for Grand Prix Masters. Speaking from his faculty office in Miami Steve said: “I am very proud to be an integral part of the Grand Prix Masters team and to renew my working relationship with these guys who I have seen develop from young drivers into World Champions.”
#5
Posted 04 August 2005 - 15:14
I may be missing the attraction here, but I don't see this as likely to be a great success? What do others think?
#6
Posted 04 August 2005 - 15:18
Some of the greatest and most legendary names in world motorsport...
...Andrea de Cesaris (Italy)...Jan Lammers (Netherlands) and Christian Danner (Germany)...
#7
Posted 04 August 2005 - 15:42
The only thing I could query is why another spec car, wouldn't it have been easier/cheaper/more sensible to use either the GP2 or A1GP machinery? - But hey, that's a business decision.
GPM isn't stealing drivers or meetings or track time from any other series; backing will (I guess) come from long-time personal backers of the drivers involved, all of whom are fairly marketable, so I doubt it's even depriving youngsters of budget.
It sounds fun. Racing needs fun. I'm all for it.
#8
Posted 04 August 2005 - 16:12
Originally posted by petefenelon
Hmmm. Someone gives you the opportunity of watching proper racers, most of whom display decidedly old-fashioned (at least relative to modern European single seater racing) characteristics like personality! and charisma! and actual talent! in identical 600bhp cars that are probably somewhere around the spec of late 80s/early 90s atmo F1 cars with a bit less grip.... I think it'd be churlish to refuse ;) -- then again, they're targeting this series pretty much at the guys I grew up watching, the drivers who were around from the mid-70s to early-90s....
It sounds fun. Racing needs fun. I'm all for it.
I don't know. I want to agree that its a good idea and we will see the likes of Prost COMPETE against Emmo and Patrese. And we will see again the set of skills and techniques we grew up loving (with lighter relief in seeing whether Andrea still seeks to break all known records regarding mechanics' ability to repair car damage in limited time).
But the other side of the coin is that, like it or not, sportsmens skill, motivations and edge decline with age and so what is it that we're actually going to see?
True competition or a somewhat sadder sight of once-great (or almost great/good) talent going through the motions in cars that bear no visual connection with the time/place that we associate these guys with. So it may be fun, but it ain't going to be "racing".
Maybe I'm just being grouchy today but the latter "entertainment" doesn't thrill me and I think that is what its gonna end up being.
#9
Posted 04 August 2005 - 16:25
#10
Posted 04 August 2005 - 16:51
Originally posted by llmaurice
As long as the men haven't lost too much of their original verve I reckon it would still be a good spectacle . A lot better than some of the Master ,TGP and 5000s we've seen of late being lapped in 3 laps at Silverstone .
Exactly. These are competitive guys, if they thought they'd "lost it" they wouldn't be out playing. Give them time to get used to the cars, give the ones who've been out of the cockpit for a while a few sessions in the gym, and I reckon it'll be Proper Racing. I'd expect there to be a certain degree of risk-avoidance in their driving (no bumping and barging and ideally no gratuitous blocking) but these are the kind of blokes who are going to Go For It when the lights go out.
#11
Posted 04 August 2005 - 16:54
If Alan Jones's comment is right then once the starting light goes out we should be in for some good racing. I'll be interested to hear Riccardo's views now that he has signed up for this race. Back in December he had a few questions: "It is easy to say 'yes, I am going to race' but to jump into a 600bhp racing car and race competitively you have to approach things professionally, you need to be fit. This would be real racing and so you need to be prepared, and there's the question of safety also. The races are for prizemoney and so there would be real competition involved, not just a demonstration." Obviously his questions have been answered and he's keen to get behind the wheel again.Originally posted by llmaurice
As long as the men haven't lost too much of their original verve I reckon it would still be a good spectacle.
Hopefully, this first race in South Africa will be widely televised :
#12
Posted 04 August 2005 - 19:21
We will see a load of identical racing cars go by, and the programme will say the man inside is a driver with a name we recognise from the past... how are we to know? Big Deal.
Unless Keke joins in...that might be different...
#13
Posted 04 August 2005 - 20:39
Originally posted by David Beard
Unless Keke joins in...that might be different...
#14
Posted 04 August 2005 - 20:55
Originally posted by David Beard
Unless Keke joins in...that might be different...
#15
Posted 05 August 2005 - 07:22
The present crop of drivers, in any case, have all their personality and individuality beaten out of them at an early stage by their employers and are forbidden from saying anything in any way ineresting in interviews.
It's the' out of touch' men at the top who are at fault .......people who are not even motor racing enthusiasts. Bringing back a few old blokes isn't going to solve this one.
#16
Posted 05 August 2005 - 07:49
And, I don't know who Scott Poulter is, but judging from the first sentence of his statement, he is clearly a master of bullshit.
#17
Posted 05 August 2005 - 07:57
TGP is great, but as you say the cars are more important. GPM's aim seems to be to put the emphasis on the drivers. If the "masters" of the past want to race again good on them.Originally posted by David Beard
We have TGP, and it's great. The cars are more important (and their designers, of course) These heroes have had their fun...why give them free playtime, and ego re-inflation, now?
One doubt I have is who will actually be racing. The wording on the GPM website isn't very clear. Prost, Fittipaldi, Jones, Patrese, Arnoux, de Cesaris, Johansson, Lammers, Danner, Capelli, Caffi & Stuck are all listed as "likely to race".
Elsewhere it mentions that Caffi, Stuck & Capelli have all "signed agreements recently that they will be available to race." de Cesaris has "confirmed his intent to race". Fittipaldi " is looking to race". The only drivers who appear to have agreed to race are Arnoux, Jones, Danner, Prost & Johansson.
#18
Posted 05 August 2005 - 12:28
#19
Posted 05 August 2005 - 12:34
Originally posted by RTH
The sterility of contemporary Grand Prix racing isn't the fault of the present drivers........it's the people governing the sport. The cars are in all ways deadly dull, they all look exactly the same, and cornering on rails are tedious to watch.
The present crop of drivers, in any case, have all their personality and individuality beaten out of them at an early stage by their employers and are forbidden from saying anything in any way ineresting in interviews.
It's the' out of touch' men at the top who are at fault .......people who are not even motor racing enthusiasts. Bringing back a few old blokes isn't going to solve this one.
RTH your words are spot-on. SPOT-ON.
I would like to add, that if this series goes on,
we'll see the drivers of the past, also them, in an indian queue all along the race track.
For the duration of the whole race, for the duration of the whole serie.
This will be another damage for the TNF members, because it will take out from our fantasy
the beautiful images of the past.
This is really a bad joke.
Ciao to all.
MonzaDriver.
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#20
Posted 05 August 2005 - 13:18
Originally posted by David Beard
We have TGP, and it's great. The cars are more important (and their designers, of course) These heroes have had their fun...why give them free playtime, and ego re-inflation, now?
We will see a load of identical racing cars go by, and the programme will say the man inside is a driver with a name we recognise from the past... how are we to know? Big Deal.
Surely, if it wasn't for the likes of drivers from days indudging in a bit of "free playtime" then the Goodwood Revival (for example) wouldn't exist! We pay to watch Sir Stirling Moss, John Surtees, Damon Hill, etc blasting old machinery around the track. And I bet there is a bit of "ego re-inflation" in there too as they prove that they can still cut it with the youngsters.
I go to lots of races and see drivers in racing cars with names I remember from various reincarnations. They may not be "historic" in the ancient sense necessarily, but it's nice to know that they are still climbing into racecars for my entertainment - and hopefully enjoying themselves too.
Just because the drivers who have signed up for Grand Prix Masters aren't as old as Sir Stirling and aren't driving 'historic' cars, it doesn't make it any less worthwhile.
MonzaDriver: if it's going to spoil your fantasy of the past then you don't actually have to watch it. But I know that I will jump at the chance to see the likes of Prost fighting it out with Jones and the prospect of finally watching Keke Rosberg race in the flesh fills me with glee.
#21
Posted 06 August 2005 - 06:30
#22
Posted 06 August 2005 - 07:28
Is THAT what we want??? Racertainment?? I know, I don't. Anyway, this concept works for the Senior PGA Golf tournment but I don't think it translates well to auto racing (or most other sports). This is single-seater IROC racing afterall. I've just never found these spec-racer series to be enough to capture my interest. It would be like the PGA changing the Senior Tour rules to say that everyone must golf with the same set of cheap department store clubs to see who's really the best!
#23
Posted 06 August 2005 - 11:19
Originally posted by john aston
I'd rather watch F3
You're a man with a higher boredom threshold than me, then! If F3 had another 100bhp and half the downforce I might wake up during the "races". As it is, it's entirely a triumph of aero grip and low-powered engines over watchability!
Dallara have (through no fault of their own) killed F3 by having entirely too good a car in terms of downforce and grip, and the FIA are at least contributory in their negligence, allowing it to limp on with the strangulated, air-restricted engines.
The 2006 FAtlantic car in the States looks about right - 300bhp and most of its modest amount of downforce through ground effect not wings so at least they should be able to run close...
#24
Posted 06 August 2005 - 17:29
I would delete all wings, have a mandatory 4 " of daylight under the cars at all times, no difusers, narrow the width of the cars they have been allowed to grow vastly in width and length in the last 30 years, delete the expensive to buy and service sequential gearboxes have a simple mandatory gearbox only and single wiring loom and ECU replace the air restrictor with a sealed 8000 limiter, no exotic metals CF limited to just the tub and limit testing to the friday before each race only during the season and one set of tyres only for Fri - Sun and a regime of vigorous cost cutting all round - especially the entry fees and associated competitor costs.
But then sense never prevails in motor racing these days , so I expect it to just quietly die off.
#25
Posted 06 August 2005 - 20:44
As for the original topic, I feel very uncomfortable about an 'Old Masters' series. In some the competitive flame is still as strong as ever, but in others it isn't and they will be merely touring (admittedly faster than you or I could ever drive) so the results are meaningless. As the years go by, the reflexes are not as needle sharp as they were. Possibly more significant, if an injury does occur the ability of the body to recover is significantly slower. How would anybody feel if one of these 'Old masters' were to be killed or seriously injured?
Goodwood is different - it's a one off event and the results are essentially irrelevant. Even so, it has put Jack Brabham into hospital twice! Which is, I think, twice more than his racing career did.
#26
Posted 06 August 2005 - 21:35
Originally posted by D-Type
How would anybody feel if one of these 'Old masters' were to be killed or seriously injured?
Exactly the same as I would if any other racing driver was killed or seriously injured - nobody forces them into the cockpit - they know and accept the risks, they're doing it "for fun" and bad things sometimes happen to good people.
#27
Posted 06 August 2005 - 22:34
Me too......Whatever the consequences.Originally posted by petefenelon
It sounds fun. Racing needs fun. I'm all for it.
Any guesses as to who gets the TV coverage?
Jp
#28
Posted 07 August 2005 - 02:33
I agree with petefenelon and jonpollak - it sounds fantastic, a visionary idea.
#29
Posted 07 August 2005 - 05:37
#30
Posted 07 August 2005 - 09:34
They are of course there for aspiring drivers to climb their personal ladders to whatever success they earn - or can afford .
Just consider for a moment the lap times that F3 car attain with their relatively strangled motors but superb roadholding when driven flat out everywhere .
F3 always had been and still is the most significant step in most single seat drivers careers.
Why so many folk seem to only relate to the top formulas beats me . If only they considered what the humble FF1600 and 2.0l cars have done and still do in terms of lap times they may be able to expand their spectating pleasure.
#31
Posted 07 August 2005 - 10:41
#32
Posted 07 August 2005 - 14:10
Yes, equal cars so they can demonstrate their SKILLS.
Can't I be more clear that that what the GPM is going to be about?
And why couln't retired drivers have another go? why would it be forbidden to them to enjoy again their passion : racing?
#33
Posted 10 August 2005 - 11:07
My doubts were unfounded. I have spoken to Riccardo today and he has confirmed that he has signed to race in South Africa. He has done an interview with Autosport, which I assume will appear in tomorrow's issue.Originally posted by Maldwyn
One doubt I have is who will actually be racing. The wording on the GPM website isn't very clear. Prost, Fittipaldi, Jones, Patrese, Arnoux, de Cesaris, Johansson, Lammers, Danner, Capelli, Caffi & Stuck are all listed as "likely to race".
#34
Posted 16 August 2005 - 13:30
How many of the names linked to the series have RECENTLY driven a 600bhp single seater at competative speeds ? Given the advances in aerodynamics, suspension technology and tire compounds since c1980, even if the power to weight ratio is roughly equivalent to F-1 c'80, the cars will be appreciably faster.
Alan Jones is quite correct in stateing that once the flag falls he and his fellow competators will drive hard. How many are still capable of driving fast and safely ? History shows us numerious drivers who's skills have deteriorated over time and ultimately suffer an accident that effectively ended their career. One of these drivers is prominently linked to this series...
Best,
Ross
#35
Posted 17 August 2005 - 11:31
#37
Posted 01 September 2005 - 08:52
Can they make it a condition of his contract that Nigel has to regrow his moustache? For me, Nigel isn't Nigel without the mo'......
#38
Posted 01 September 2005 - 11:11
Originally posted by Hank the Deuce
Personally, I'd crawl over a mile of broken glass to see half of the names mentioned here drive lawnmowers around the garden. If they're having half a go, there'll be plenty of mastery on display... be nice if the balance between grip and go favours the "go" bit...
I agree with that sentiment about lawnmowers! People like Emmo, Prost and Jones are absolute heroes from the last era when you really were taking your well being and future fitness in your own hands to race cars. I really hope this gets a niche like Golf Masters has. If only Bellof, Senna and Gilles were in the starting lineup...
#39
Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:03
These once great drivers are now well past their sell-by date. I suspect that they are not in the same physical shape as when they were racing in anger and, more importantly, I think that levels of motivation will be less than zero.
It will be little more than a Sunday afternoon trot in which the drivers, rather than the cars, are historic.
I'd much rather see our blessed fathers investing more time, effort and money in providing us wee spectators with some thrilling junior formulae.
Grumpy Edward
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#40
Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:33
I don't think anyone expects Jack Nicklaus to perform the way he did when he was winning majors, but his reception at St Andrews shows that people still want to see him play golf.Originally posted by SEdward
I'm rather worried that the whole thing will be a complete washout. When I read that members are pleased to see that Keke is coming back, then I can only think that they are completely deluded if they expect to see a repeat of his feats of the past.
#41
Posted 02 September 2005 - 15:18
Will they paint the cars in schemes similar to what the drivers competed with (perhaps without the actual word advertising?)
#42
Posted 02 September 2005 - 19:21
Originally posted by SEdward
I'd much rather see our blessed fathers investing more time, effort and money in providing us wee spectators with some thrilling junior formulae.
Grumpy Edward
They've come pretty damn close with GP2, the balance of aero to mechanical grip and grip to power are just about right. The cars move round a bit, and take some driving!
#43
Posted 02 September 2005 - 20:40
I have a real hard time believing that the will to win will deteriorate much in these guys, much less to zero.Originally posted by SEdward
...more importantly, I think that levels of motivation will be less than zero.
DREW
#44
Posted 03 September 2005 - 00:40
Originally posted by DREW
I have a real hard time believing that the will to win will deteriorate much in these guys, much less to zero.
DREW
I don't know. Many agree with Drew - once a tiger always a tiger, I'm really not as convinced. Some drivers do seem to me to lose the "spark" they once had, it's really not automatic that they retain the will to win.
#45
Posted 03 September 2005 - 04:23
I expect to see lots of errors, lots of spins and I just hope no injuries. However, these are grown men and they are free to do as they wish.
In my humble opinion, I just find it a bit strange that these wealthy men that have already put so much time into racing do not have other, more meaningful objectives in their lives!!
Driving in circles
Whatever rocks your boat I suppose
#46
Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:10
I don't know about the rest, but Riccardo Patrese certainly does have other things to do with his life. Showjumping competition being one. But he's viewing it as a chance to meet up with old friends, have fun and enjoy a little bit of racing.Originally posted by man
In my humble opinion, I just find it a bit strange that these wealthy men that have already put so much time into racing do not have other, more meaningful objectives in their lives!!
#47
Posted 03 September 2005 - 22:18
Originally posted by Ruairidh
I don't know. Many agree with Drew - once a tiger always a tiger, I'm really not as convinced. Some drivers do seem to me to lose the "spark" they once had, it's really not automatic that they retain the will to win.
But those that have lost the spark probably won't be competing. I'd be very surprised to see Damon Hill take part for example. (I haven't been following who's gonna take part, so I'll look very stupid now if DH does...)
#48
Posted 04 September 2005 - 08:55
"I took a decision a while ago that I've taken enough risks with my life and I don't want to take anymore. It's not like the Seniors Tour in golf. This is motor racing and there are risks involved. I don't think 50-year-old guys are really cut out to take risks with their lives."
#49
Posted 04 September 2005 - 09:55
#50
Posted 05 September 2005 - 02:48
GP Masters - Well I suppose its kind of like your dad going through a mid-life crisis, buying a convertable Porsche and then trying to pull somebody half his age at a student disco!
Sounds like almost every James Bond film....