The 'X-Pics' - video captures

#71

Source - Discovery Channel

Colour footage of probably ERA #9. The circuit isn't Silverstone. Starkey Straight at pre-war Donington? Earl Howe in 1937 Donington Grand Prix? But looks like it's summer.

#72

Source - Sport channel

Absolutely unknown track for me. Not Montlhery.

#73

Source - recent FIA Gala feature from Eurosport

British beach race? Bugatti on first two frames?

#74

Source - Discovery Channel's Nazi Grand Prix

Raymond Mays' win in Crystal Palace. Which race?

#75

Source - Discovery Channel

500cc support race for 1950 or 1951 British Grand Prix.

#76

Source - Discovery Channel

1930s sport car.

#77

Source - Discovery Channel

Probably Achille Varzi. In Auto Union?

#78

Source - Discovery Channel

Probably Cooper himself in a 500cc Cooper at British hillclimb.

#79

Source - Discovery Channel's Nazi Grand Prix

Cannon start in 1920s.

#80

Source - Premier

Spa sport car crash.

71. Definitely not Lord Howe. Why can't it be Silverstone?
72. Why not Montlhery?
73. Could be Southport. Could be Luis Fontes in the Invicta
74. Are you sure it's not a hillclimb?
75. With Moss in a Kieft, it must be 1951
76. Not a sportscar
78. Very early - 1946?

#74 The pennant in the third picture says "Crystal Palace Cup". But I thought he only ran twin rear wheels in hillclimbs. It could be creative editing but he's wearing the same clothes in all the pictures.

#80 It looks like a Lister in the first picture which would make it Archie Scott Brown's fatal crash in 1958

72 Could this be Littorio? Used for Rome GP 1931-2.

74 1939 Crystal Palace Cup. I've seen other references to Mays (and Bira) using double rears at the Palace in slippery conditions.

74
Did part of Crystal Palace look like the top 2 pictures?

71 Perhaps Cuth Harrison in R8B/C, possibly at Silverstone in 1950 (International Trophy?), but quite a few people drove this car in this configuration. Barker's ERA book has a picture of the same car, carrying #9, captioned "Silverstone 1950". Note the revised lower bodywork, streamlined over the suspension. Distinctive.

#76 looks very much like a Delahaye (the converted sportscar - 145) and it looks like Dreyfus in the driving seat - but I can't find a race where the Delahaye ran with the number 10. It's not the SEFAC is it, as entered for the 1938 Grand Prix de l'ACF (number 10)?

Originally posted by Vitesse2
72 Could this be Littorio? Used for Rome GP 1931-2.

Definitely Littorio. Matches the only footage I've seen, which led to me starting a thread in TNF about the circuit.

Angst: I'd just reached the same conclusion, having first wondered if it was the 155! I think it's "Raph" at Donington in 1938.

#77 - Comotti in the Delahaye. Perhaps from the same race as #76?

Originally posted by D-Type
#74 The pennant in the third picture says "Crystal Palace Cup". But I thought he only ran twin rear wheels in hillclimbs. It could be creative editing but he's wearing the same clothes in all the pictures.

Mays almost always wore the same clothes to race in, I believe. Light blue overall and shirt and dark blue tie. Schweeet!

Originally posted by D-Type
#80 It looks like a Lister in the first picture which would make it Archie Scott Brown's fatal crash in 1958

Err, surely that's the driver walking away in picture 4? Was there a fire involved in AS-B's crash?

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Angst: I'd just reached the same conclusion, having first wondered if it was the 155! I think it's "Raph" at Donington in 1938.

I missed that one. Probably shoots down my thoughts about #77 then.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


Definitely Littorio. Matches the only footage I've seen, which led to me starting a thread in TNF about the circuit.

Oh, yes - I'd almost forgotten that! It was called Italy's AVUS? Can anyone add anything to the little in that thread?

Originally posted by angst
#77 - Comotti in the Delahaye. Perhaps from the same race as #76?

I think you're right on Comotti, but I also thought it could be Brivio. Difficult to tell with the cap.

Originally posted by David McKinney
74
Did part of Crystal Palace look like the top 2 pictures?

No idea, David. But if the pre-War paddock was as primitive as the post-War one, it would fit!

And I've just remembered that it was Abecassis who first used double rears there.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
And I've just remembered that it was Abecassis who first used double rears there.

Before Hadley?
(I'm not arguing - it's a question )

I'm going on Chula's testimony there. Somewhere in "Road Star Hat Trick", I think, but I can't pin it down immediately.

Whatever, it was accepted practice to use double rears at the Palace, although Chula doesn't mention it specifically for anyone in 1939.

# 80 again -
Yes it definitely looks like a driver in picture 4. Did anybody else stop at the scene of the accident after the race?
Archie died of burns so the Lister definitely did catch fire.

That is - sadly - the Scott Brown accident...

DCN

Originally posted by David McKinney

73. Could be Southport. Could be Luis Fontes in the Invicta

Certainly looks like Southport beach - in particular those dunes in the background.

Thank you all for help.

#71

Source - Discovery Channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Colour footage of probably ERA #9. The circuit isn't Silverstone. Starkey Straight at pre-war Donington? Earl Howe in 1937 Donington Grand Prix? But looks like it's summer.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
71. Definitely not Lord Howe. Why can't it be Silverstone?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
71 Perhaps Cuth Harrison in R8B/C, possibly at Silverstone in 1950 (International Trophy?), but quite a few people drove this car in this configuration. Barker's ERA book has a picture of the same car, carrying #9, captioned "Silverstone 1950". Note the revised lower bodywork, streamlined over the suspension. Distinctive.[/QUOTE]
If it's Silverstone, house and trees on the background must be inside the track. Were they really on airfield?

#72

Source - Sport channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Absolutely unknown track for me. Not Montlhery.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
72. Why not Montlhery?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
72 Could this be Littorio? Used for Rome GP 1931-2.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Definitely Littorio. Matches the only footage I've seen, which led to me starting a thread in TNF about the circuit.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
Oh, yes - I'd almost forgotten that! It was called Italy's AVUS? Can anyone add anything to the little in that thread?[/QUOTE]
I think it should be Littorio. But I found nothing in the Internet about these races and circuit itself.

#73

Source - recent FIA Gala feature from Eurosport

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
British beach race? Bugatti on first two frames?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
73. Could be Southport. Could be Luis Fontes in the Invicta[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ruairidh
Certainly looks like Southport beach - in particular those dunes in the background.[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much! I never heard about Southport races. Now searched at British Pathe and found the same footage for 1932 race at this page. Here are the same pictures:

http://www.britishpa...thport&frame=73
http://www.britishpa...thport&frame=74
http://www.britishpa...thport&frame=88

IDENTIFIED

#74

Source - Discovery Channel's Nazi Grand Prix

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Raymond Mays' win in Crystal Palace. Which race?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
74. Are you sure it's not a hillclimb?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by D-Type
#74 The pennant in the third picture says "Crystal Palace Cup". But I thought he only ran twin rear wheels in hillclimbs. It could be creative editing but he's wearing the same clothes in all the pictures.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
74 1939 Crystal Palace Cup. I've seen other references to Mays (and Bira) using double rears at the Palace in slippery conditions.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
Mays almost always wore the same clothes to race in, I believe. Light blue overall and shirt and dark blue tie. Schweeet![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
74
Did part of Crystal Palace look like the top 2 pictures?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
No idea, David. But if the pre-War paddock was as primitive as the post-War one, it would fit!

And I've just remembered that it was Abecassis who first used double rears there.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
Before Hadley?
(I'm not arguing - it's a question [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
I'm going on Chula's testimony there. Somewhere in "Road Star Hat Trick", I think, but I can't pin it down immediately.

Whatever, it was accepted practice to use double rears at the Palace, although Chula doesn't mention it specifically for anyone in 1939.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. IDENTIFIED

#75

Source - Discovery Channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
500cc support race for 1950 or 1951 British Grand Prix.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
75. With Moss in a Kieft, it must be 1951[/QUOTE]
Is Moss #7? Is #31 a Cooper? There was a 1951 British Grand Prix color footage in that Discovery Channel feature. Please someone post more information on that meeting 500cc race.

#76

Source - Discovery Channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
1930s sport car.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
76. Not a sportscar[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by angst
#76 looks very much like a Delahaye (the converted sportscar - 145) and it looks like Dreyfus in the driving seat - but I can't find a race where the Delahaye ran with the number 10. It's not the SEFAC is it, as entered for the 1938 Grand Prix de l'ACF (number 10)?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
Angst: I'd just reached the same conclusion, having first wondered if it was the 155! I think it's "Raph" at Donington in 1938.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by angst
I missed that one. Probably shoots down my thoughts about #77 then.[/QUOTE]
I have nothing to add and to help. Sorry.

#77

Source - Discovery Channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Probably Achille Varzi. In Auto Union?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by angst
#77 - Comotti in the Delahaye. Perhaps from the same race as #76?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
I think you're right on Comotti, but I also thought it could be Brivio. Difficult to tell with the cap.[/QUOTE]
Background really looks like Donington. As Discovery Channel uses well known footages for its features, we just need to check our video collections to find these frames.

#78

Source - Discovery Channel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Probably Cooper himself in a 500cc Cooper at British hillclimb.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
78. Very early - 1946?[/QUOTE]

#79

Source - Discovery Channel's Nazi Grand Prix

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Cannon start in 1920s.[/QUOTE]

#80

Source - Premier

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kvadrat
Spa sport car crash. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by D-Type
#80 It looks like a Lister in the first picture which would make it Archie Scott Brown's fatal crash in 1958[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
Err, surely that's the driver walking away in picture 4? Was there a fire involved in AS-B's crash?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by D-Type
# 80 again -
Yes it definitely looks like a driver in picture 4. Did anybody else stop at the scene of the accident after the race?
Archie died of burns so the Lister definitely did catch fire.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Nye
That is - sadly - the Scott Brown accident...[/QUOTE]
Thank you. In which part of the circuit did it happen? IDENTIFIED

Originally posted by Kvadrat
#71

Source - Discovery Channel

If it's Silverstone, house and trees on the background must be inside the track. Were they really on airfield?

I got it! Here's frame from 1969 British Grand Prix. View to Abbey.


Source - British Petroleum Tribute to Jackie Stewart

The same building on the background. Is it that farm after which The Farm Straight was named? Never saw it in Silverstone pictures.

So the driver would be Brian Shaw-Taylor in 1951 British Grand Prix

Originally posted by Kvadrat
#79

Source - Discovery Channel's Nazi Grand Prix

Cannon start in 1920s.

1908 ACF Grand Prix.

Just to finally confirm the Mays picture, I've today come across two pictures of the race, which both clearly show that Mays used double rears. One is a distant shot of the finish (in the Bourne Historical Society booklet "Raymond Mays of Bourne"), the other an action shot (in Chula's "Blue and Gold"). The latter also confirms the race number 12.

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Was there a fire involved in AS-B's crash?

Unfortunately, yes. There was an explosion shortly after the car overturned and just before it stopped moving. What I find very eerie, is the crowd of spectators with their backs turned to the accident. If anyone was hurt, or killed, they never saw it coming.

Here is a picture of the burned out wreck. Looks like the car was brought back to the garage area, along with some broken body pieces.

***Warning: The link below shows aftermath of a fatal accident***

http://www.crasheram...ownSpawreck.jpg

***Warning: The link above shows aftermath of a fatal accident***


Kvadrat , I'd very much like to see your capture of this. The one I have is a bit blurry and difficult to see fine details. You may post it at Crasherama, if not here.

I will do.

How can you see Crasherama pictures? I still can't (Access forbidden).

Thank You.

I'm not sure why you cannot see the pictures. We will try to solve the problem in the near future.

#78 is Shelsley Walsh in 1947. JC and Brandon's Cooper 500's also pic of the Strang in the paddock.

Originally posted by Richard Neale
#78 is Shelsley Walsh in 1947. JC and Brandon's Cooper 500's also pic of the Strang in the paddock.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Kvadrat
#78

Source - Discovery Channel

IDENTIFIED

In pic #73 is that John Bolsters 'Bloody Mary' behind the Invicta ????????

No
I should recognise what it is, but the right chip won't kick in at the moment. Looks like a Frazer Nash, but I don't think that's what it is

Originally posted by Kvadrat
#73

Source - recent FIA Gala feature from Eurosport

British Pathe 1932 Southport race film dated August 18. It's Thursday. So was the race on Saturday, August 13? Does anyone have correct date for the race?

Correct date is 13 August

Originally posted by Kvadrat

#72

Source - Sport channel

I think it should be Littorio. But I found nothing in the Internet about these races and circuit itself.

That was 1932 Rome Grand Prix according to this clip from http://www.maserati.com.

Here are some frames from the clip:

Khadrat ann David

The cars filmed at Southport, 13th August, 1932 are #38 Noel Carr in his Bugatti T35C who finished 7th on handicap, the sideways Invicta #47 of A.C. "Bill" Lace who was 6th on handicap and the 1500cc Frazer-Nash #33 of Adrian Conan-Doyle, one of the sons of the famous author. The Frazer-Nash ran well but expired in a cloud of steam. His brother Dennis drove a mighty Mercedes-Benz SSK from scratch but was never in the hunt. He also retired. The winner was Jack Bartlett in his Salmson in front of Bill Thompson (Austin 7 s/c) and Jack Field (Bugatti T35B), the fastest of the finishers. Luis Fontes was at Southport but in his little MG Midget C-type and finished 10th.

John

John, thank you for the information.

#77
I'm sure : he's not the great Achille Varzi.
Bye

#77

I'm quite positive it's Baconin Borzacchini: http://www.latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_022405

Thank you, I'll serach for Borzacchini portraits.

Kvadrat

The driver #77 may be Walter Baumer, the Mercedes-Benz reserve driver and Austin exponent.

John

I am reliably informed that it is definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, Walter Bäumer.;)

Good spot, John.

Well, car looks like Mercedes, background is Donington's. It's Baumer in 1938 Donington Grand Prix.

Thank you.

#76 picture must be from the same film, so that's "Raph" in the same race.

#75 picture still left unidentified, but it's most probably 1951 British Grand Prix 500cc race.

I've got new set of video frames for identification and will post them soon.

#75 ~~

Car #7 is Moss in a Keift and the car in the last frame is an Emeryson ~~~

I'll have to dig out a Program this evening to find more ~~~

Kvadrat

Frames 75 from 500cc supporting race at the British GP, 14 july 1951.

From what I can make out #7 is, of course Stirling Moss in the "works" Kieft-Norton and next to him is #31 Charlie Headland in the Sparkbrook Motors Cooper Mk5-Norton, then Alan Brown #16 in the Ecurie Richmond Cooper Mk5-Norton just coming up to join the front row, Peter Collins in the #40 JBS-Norton and #15 Eric Brandon in the other Ecurie Richmond Mk5. The sixth man on the front row, Jack Moor in his Wasp (Iota)-Norton is not visible but he was to finish 3rd.

The red car, #38 from the second row, is Charles Arengo in his eponymous JAP device and the metallic green (?) car along side is Jack Westcott in his JBS-Norton, #24.

In the fourth frame it looks like David Brake, doing anything but, in his Cooper Mk5-Norton #36 and Don Parker in his JPS-JAP #18 painted in his favourite maroon colour.

The 5th frame shows #39 Ken Watkins in the front-engined Emeryson-Norton with #10 being Ray Merrick in his Cooper Mk5-Norton. Somewhere in the middle of the pack there is #20 driven by a Mr B.C.Ecclestone who finished 10th in his Cooper Mk5-Norton.

Perhaps the most startling image from these frames is seeing the yellow-shirted Ken Wharton trying to fire up his Cooper Mk4-Norton by pushing it, in the middle of the swarming pack!! He was successful, the engine fired and Wharton fell to his knees, scrambled to his feet and leapt in. He then proceeded to drive through the field to finish 2nd to Moss!!

John

Exactly the info I was going to post this evening when I got home John !!!!

Thank you. Which sources do you use on 500cc racing?

Here they are.

#91

Lotus Cortina at Crystal Palace. Clark? Year? Race?

#92

Taken from the same TV Feature. That's probably after the same race victory. He and Chapman demonstrate Indy 500 trophy and newspaper with Indy victory headlines.

A couple of rally questions

#93

Monte Carlo rally. Year? Car? Driver?

#94

Swedish Rally.

#95

Mercedes W25. Montlhery?

#96

Taken from Motorfilms Quarterly intro. One of first Grands Prix? 12A and 12C must be from the same works team.

#97

Taken from Porsche feature. Nurburgring 1000 km race? Year?

#98

Porsche probably in Carrera Panamericana or Mille Miglia. Note yellow wagon of "... Corse" team.

#99

One of early Caracciola's wins.

#100

Pau? Delahaye? Year?

Originally posted by Kvadrat
#98

Porsche probably in Carrera Panamericana or Mille Miglia. Note yellow wagon of "... Corse" team.

It says "Servizio Corse" and above it you can see the bottom of the Agip six-legged dog. So I guess Agip were fuel suppliers, probably in Italy then.

No 97 was filmed, I think, at the end of the supporting race held on the morning of the 1956 German GP at the Nurburgring. The winner was Hans Hermann in Porche 1500RS #51, second was Stirling Moss in a 150S Maserati #32 and third Roy Salvadori in the Cooper T39-Climax with its lights on. Maserati drivers Behra and Perdisa, as well as Moss, all took part in this race despite them being in the Grand Prix in the afternoon. Perdisa crashed and was slightly injured so Umberto Maglioli took over his "works" 250F for the Grosser Preis and Maglioli's Scuderia Guastalla car was withdrawn. Imagine Michael, Jenson and co having a bash in a Touring car race before a GP!

No 98, might be a shot of the Porsche team doing a "recce" for the 1956 Mille Miglia or for the 1956 Targa Florio that Maglioli/ von Hanstein won.

No 99 (I am guessing) is Caracciola probably after winning the 4PS (40 laps, 27km) race at the Berlin Stadiom at Charlottenberg, on 29 April, 1923 with Fritz Wusthoff's Ego 4/14.

Re 500cc racing the sources are the race programme, the F3 Black Book, and contemporary reports from Autosport, Motor Sport, The Autocar and The Motor.

John

Completely O/T John, but I'm just reading some 1977 A/Sports, courtesy of Roger.

Halfway thru' that year they ran a Crossword Quiz, the winner being announced a couple of weeks later, as J Humphries from Stafford. Are you related per chance ?