Coupe Des Alpes results and photo identification sought

Does anyone know where I could possibly find a results site for the Coupe Des Alpes?

I'm trying to identify the following cars/years/drivers:





And this is possibly a Saab from a Scandinavian Rally, in the 1960s, about to crash. Could anyone please identify where, what and when?



Thanks!

The third one looks more like a Volvo to me

I think the first shot comes from the Shell film covering the 1958 Alpine Rally - caution is advised...

DCN

blue #212 looks like an Alfa Giulietta sprint to me..

I'm 90% certain that the third shot is taken from the Castrol film "The Flying Finns" covering the 1968(?) 1000 Lakes rally and that the Volvo is about to launch itself into a series of rolls....

Is the car on the outside of picture one possibly a Denzel?

Fred

I think so. Denzel and Triumph in first pic, Alfa Sprint in second, Volvo in third...

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Does anyone know where I could possibly find a results site for the Coupe Des Alpes?

If it is identical to the "Alpenfahrt" then you'll find results from 1970 - 1973 here.

That looks like the Austrian Alpine Rally to me, a different event altogether.

I can't remember where I got the 'Coupe Des Alpes' info from, in the first place. Possibly from the source tape. But, there is a good chance that it's wrong.

Österreichische Alpenfahrt was an Austrian rally.
Coupe des Alpes was a French (or Swiss?) rally.

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich


Coupe des Alpes was a French (or Swiss?) rally.

Basically French, organised by the "A.C. de Marseille et Provence" and starting always from the Vieux Port (Old Harbour) in Marseille and finishing in some trendy Mediterranean spots like Cannes, Nice, Antibes or Monaco depending on the year. The route was usually splitted in three legs and around 3000/3500 km long including the Alpine passes of Switzerland and Northern Italy.


Carles.

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Does anyone know where I could possibly find a results site for the Coupe Des Alpes?

Nobody knows?

In my memory I have Renè Trauttmann as a winner in some Lancia in 19 .. 67?
And perhaps Jean François Piot in a Ford Escort Rs and Paddy Hopkirk in a Cooper S, but I'm not sure...

Originally posted by jarama
The route was usually splitted in three legs and around 3000/3500 km long including the Alpine passes of Switzerland and Northern Italy.

How far east did the route go? Because those two pictures look suspiciously like the the ascent to the Stelvio Pass in Italy, which is getting over towards the Dolomites.

If anyone is interested here is the 1951 Coupe des Alpes - Entry List.

No. Nationality Car Class Driver Co-Driver

2 F Panhard Up to 750cc R.Stempert ?.Schwartz
4 F Panhard Up to 750cc E.Legre M.Noix
7 CAN Panhard Up to 750cc Kenny? Dave?
8 F Renault Up to 750cc L.Picon Turquetil
9 F Renault Up to 750cc J.L.V.Sandt A.M.Sandt
10 F Renault Up to 750cc G.Savon ?
11 F Panhard Up to 750cc A.Gerakis J.Olive
12 F D.B. Up to 750cc F.Auriach Mme Auriach
14 F Renault Up to 750cc Landon Mme Landon
24 F Simca 750-1100cc M.Angelvin Mme Angelvin
25 I Fiat 750-1100cc P.Butti ?
31 GB M.G. 1100-1500cc R.Flower J.Hockridge
32 GB M.G. 1100-1500cc Ernest MacMillen ?.Titterington
33 GB Jowett 1100-1500cc W.H.Robinson W.James
34 GB Jowett 1100-1500cc T.C.Wise M.S.Wilson
35 GB Jowett 1100-1500cc T.Smallhorn C.A.Lillicrap
36 GB H.R.G. 1100-1500cc John Gott G.W.Gillespie
37 GB M.G. 1100-1500cc E.G.Juer ?
38 GB M.G. 1100-1500cc T.G.Cunane E.de Wadder
39 GB H.R.G. 1100-1500cc W.Shepherd S.R.Williamson
40 F Simca 1100-1500cc V.Miternique Mme Miternique
41 F Jowett 1100-1500cc J.Armengaud ?
42 F M.G. 1100-1500cc E.de Regibus Dr. Chaix
43 GB M.G. 1100-1500cc J.Lord A.K.Cooke
44 F Simca 1100-1500cc J.Therbert Houdusse
45 E Simca 1100-1500cc ?.de Caralt Borrell I.Blesa
47 GB Lancia 1100-1500cc ?.Everest ?
51 GB Sunbeam 1500-2000cc D.Perring G.Griffiths
53 I Lancia 1500-2000cc F.Bocca V.Sambaj
54 GB Frazer-N. 1500-2000cc G.A.Duff E.Winterbottom
55 GB Bristol 1500-2000cc H.C.O'H.Moore C.A.Leavens
57 NL Lancia 1500-2000cc G.Puijenbroek-Wroom A.J.de Beer
58 NL Lancia 1500-2000cc A.A.Kowenberg G.Puijenbroek-Wroom
60 I Lancia 1500-2000cc F.Gatta A.Cappelli
61 I Lancia 1500-2000cc R.Piodi A.Frairia
62 GB Lancia 1500-2000cc C.M.Needham Mrs Needham
63 D BMW 1500-2000cc A.Falkenhausen K.Falkenhausen
64 GR Lancia 1500-2000cc L.Pappou L.F.Ashfield
66 I Lancia 1500-2000cc C.Garbuio G.Peghin
67 L Citroen 1500-2000cc L.Tibesat Mme Vax
71 GB Sunbeam 2000-3000cc J.N.Pearman J.Cutts
72 GB Sunbeam 2000-3000cc George Hartwell W.R.Chipperton
73 GB Healey 2000-3000cc A.D.Tasker J.Blackwell
74 GB Aston M. 2000-3000cc Tommy Wisdom Mrs Wisdom
75 GB Healey 2000-3000cc E.B.Wadsworth C.Corbishley
77 GB Morgan 2000-3000cc D.W.Price P.Price
78 GB Sunbeam 2000-3000cc A.Lilley A.Y.Lilley
79 F Ford 2000-3000cc F.Dubout J.Niboyet
81 I Alfa R. 2000-3000cc ?.di Stefano P.Ercole
91 GB J. XK120 Over 3000cc Ian Appleyard Pat Appleyard
93 CH J. XK120 Over 3000cc J.Habisreutinger ?.Horning
94 GB Allard Over 3000cc T.N.Blockley C.R.Campbell
95 GB Jaguar Over 3000cc K.S.Richardson Mrs Richardson
96 GB Jaguar Over 3000cc H.Sutcliffe Mrs Sutcliffe
98 GB Allard J2 Over 3000cc Godfrey Imhof R.W.Robertson
99 GB Jaguar Over 3000cc ?.Grant-Norton D.A.W.Loader
100 GB Allard Over 3000cc J.R.J.Mansbridge Mrs Mansbridge
101 GB Allard Over 3000cc M.Wick C.Wick
103 F Delahaye Over 3000cc G.Saisse Mme Saisse
104 F Talbot Over 3000cc ?.Fraissinet Mme Fraissinet
105 E Allard Over 3000cc S.Fabregas J.Iglesias
108 E Jaguar Over 3000cc ?.Solar-Pantaleoni ?.Apezteguia
109 CH Jaguar Over 3000cc H.J.Senn ?.Herve
110 GB Jaguar Over 3000cc W.A.McKenzie ?.Gatsonides
111 GB Jaguar Over 3000cc G.M.Samworth G.Samworth
112 NL Delahaye Over 3000cc R.Tielens C.Polis

Fred

I spent a lot of time tabulating that nicely and look how it turned out! Why was that?

Fred

Because you forgot to use the code mode.
Put "code" in brackets [] before and "/code" in brackets [] behind your tabulation.

No.	Nationality	Car	Class	Driver				   Co-Driver



2	F	Panhard	Up to 750cc	R.Stempert	?.Schwartz

4	F	Panhard	Up to 750cc	E.Legre					M.Noix

7	CAN	Panhard	Up to 750cc	Kenny?					Dave?

8	F	Renault	Up to 750cc	L.Picon					Turquetil

9	F	Renault	Up to 750cc	J.L.V.Sandt	A.M.Sandt

10	F	Renault	Up to 750cc	G.Savon					?

11	F	Panhard	Up to 750cc	A.Gerakis					J.Olive

12	F	D.B.	Up to 750cc	F.Auriach					Mme Auriach

14	F	Renault	Up to 750cc	Landon					Mme Landon

24	F	Simca	750-1100cc	M.Angelvin	Mme Angelvin

25	I	Fiat	750-1100cc	P.Butti					?

31	GB	M.G.	1100-1500cc	R.Flower					J.Hockridge

32	GB	M.G.	1100-1500cc	Ernest MacMillen	?.Titterington

33	GB	Jowett	1100-1500cc	W.H.Robinson	W.James

34	GB	Jowett	1100-1500cc	T.C.Wise					M.S.Wilson

35	GB	Jowett	1100-1500cc	T.Smallhorn	C.A.Lillicrap

36	GB	H.R.G.	1100-1500cc	John Gott					G.W.Gillespie

37	GB	M.G.	1100-1500cc	E.G.Juer					?

38	GB	M.G.	1100-1500cc	T.G.Cunane	E.de Wadder

39	GB	H.R.G.	1100-1500cc	W.Shepherd	S.R.Williamson

40	F	Simca	1100-1500cc	V.Miternique	Mme Miternique

41	F	Jowett	1100-1500cc	J.Armengaud	?

42	F	M.G.	1100-1500cc	E.de Regibus	Dr. Chaix

43	GB	M.G.	1100-1500cc	J.Lord					A.K.Cooke

44	F	Simca	1100-1500cc	J.Therbert					Houdusse

45	E	Simca	1100-1500cc	?.de Caralt Borrell	I.Blesa

47	GB	Lancia	1100-1500cc	?.Everest					?

51	GB	Sunbeam 	1500-2000cc	D.Perring					G.Griffiths

53	I	Lancia	1500-2000cc	F.Bocca					V.Sambaj

54	GB	Frazer-N.	1500-2000cc	G.A.Duff					E.Winterbottom

55	GB	Bristol	1500-2000cc	H.C.O'H.Moore	C.A.Leavens

57	NL	Lancia	1500-2000cc	G.Puijenbroek-Wroom	A.J.de Beer

58	NL	Lancia	1500-2000cc	A.A.Kowenberg	G.Puijenbroek-Wroom

60	I	Lancia	1500-2000cc	F.Gatta				   A.Cappelli

61	I	Lancia	1500-2000cc	R.Piodi				   A.Frairia

62	GB	Lancia	1500-2000cc	C.M.Needham	Mrs Needham

63	D	BMW	1500-2000cc	A.Falkenhausen	K.Falkenhausen

64	GR	Lancia	1500-2000cc	L.Pappou					L.F.Ashfield

66	I	Lancia	1500-2000cc	C.Garbuio					G.Peghin

67	L	Citroen	1500-2000cc	L.Tibesat					Mme Vax

71	GB	Sunbeam 	2000-3000cc	J.N.Pearman	J.Cutts

72	GB	Sunbeam 	2000-3000cc	George Hartwell	W.R.Chipperton

73	GB	Healey	2000-3000cc	A.D.Tasker	J.Blackwell

74	GB	Aston M.	2000-3000cc	Tommy Wisdom	Mrs Wisdom

75	GB	Healey	2000-3000cc	E.B.Wadsworth	C.Corbishley

77	GB	Morgan	2000-3000cc	D.W.Price	P.Price

78	GB	Sunbeam 	2000-3000cc	A.Lilley	A.Y.Lilley

79	F	Ford	2000-3000cc	F.Dubout	J.Niboyet

81	I	Alfa R.	2000-3000cc	?.di Stefano	P.Ercole

91	GB	J. XK120	Over 3000cc	Ian Appleyard	Pat Appleyard

93	CH	J. XK120	Over 3000cc	J.Habisreutinger	?.Horning

94	GB	Allard 	Over 3000cc	T.N.Blockley	C.R.Campbell

95	GB	Jaguar 	Over 3000cc	K.S.Richardson	Mrs Richardson

96	GB	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	H.Sutcliffe	Mrs Sutcliffe

98	GB	Allard J2	Over 3000cc	Godfrey Imhof	R.W.Robertson

99	GB	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	?.Grant-Norton	D.A.W.Loader

100	GB	Allard	Over 3000cc	J.R.J.Mansbridge	Mrs Mansbridge

101	GB	Allard	Over 3000cc	M.Wick	C.Wick

103	F	Delahaye	Over 3000cc	G.Saisse	Mme Saisse

104	F	Talbot	Over 3000cc	?.Fraissinet	Mme Fraissinet

105	E	Allard	Over 3000cc	S.Fabregas	J.Iglesias

108	E	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	?.Solar-Pantaleoni	?.Apezteguia

109	CH	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	H.J.Senn	?.Herve

110	GB	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	W.A.McKenzie	?.Gatsonides

111	GB	Jaguar	Over 3000cc	G.M.Samworth	G.Samworth

112	NL	Delahaye	Over 3000cc	R.Tielens	C.Polis

It should work if you count every single digit or letter.

There are detailed results in French magazines of the times, up to the very late 60s.

As far as I remember, any car finishing with zero penalty was granted a "Coupe des Alpes". WInning it several years (I would say three) in a row granted something like "Golden cup" or something like that.

There was an overall clasification as well, anyway.

Zero penalties on the road sections > Coupe des Alpes
Three non-consecutive Coupes > Coupe des Alpes en Argent (silver)
Three consecutive Coupes > Coup des Alpes d' Or (gold)

I also don't know how they determined overall classification -there must have been some sort of special stages.
BRG, It did include the Stelvio some years.

I'm still looking for a results site for you. I have a list of winners in a book. If you're interested I'll copy it out.

Originally posted by D-Type
I'm still looking for a results site for you. I have a list of winners in a book. If you're interested I'll copy it out.

Good!

Originally posted by D-Type

I also don't know how they determined overall classification -there must have been some sort of special stages.
BRG, It did include the Stelvio some years.

There were always some kind of tests to solve ties. Back in the fifties were driving tests, hill climbs and speed tests like circuit races @ Monza or flying kilometer @ the italian autostrada . By the early sixties the tests consisted mainly in hillclimbs and secteurs séléctifs (a kind of special stage with a handicap according to the cubic capacity of the car). By 1968/1969 or so, the secteurs were converted in full special stages without any handicap.


Carles.

Sorry, the book I thought had results doesn't include the Alpine Rally.

Contemporary reports and at least the most basic results:
International Alpine Rally 1948-1969. Portfolio Unique Master book. En anglais. 205x290.Couv souple. 126 pages. 23,50 Eu - Still available, it seems, at:
http://www.editions-...-les-grands.htm

While we are waiting if someone points us to a webpage with the complete results...


1947
no outright classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Gaston Descollais, Bugatti
- Clermont, Lancia

1948
no overall classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Ian Appleyard / Dick Weatherhead, SS Jaguar 100 3 1/2-litre
- Leslie Potter, Allard J1
- Gaston Descollais, Lancia
- Claude, Lancia
- George Murray-Frame, Sunbeam-Talbot 90
- M. Gautruche, Citroën traction
- Robin N. Richards, HRG
- F. Auriach, Simca

1949
no overall classification
Unpenalized finisher:
- M. Gautruche, Citroën

1950
no outright classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
- Signoret, Dyna-Panhard
- Lapchin, Dyna-Panhard
- M. Grosgogeat, Dyna-Panhard
- Burgerhout, Dyna-Panhard

1951
no overall classification
- Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
- Goff Imhof / R.W. Robertson, Allard J2
- J. Habisreutinger / Walo Hörning, Jaguar XK120
- George Duff / Eric Winterbottom, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica
- Tommy & Elsie Wisdom, Aston Martin DB2
- Edgar Wadsworth / C. Corbishley, Healey Silverstone X2
- John Gott / G.W. Gillespie, HRG
- R. Piodi / A. Frairia, Lancia
- Dr. M. Angelvin & wife, Simca
- Patrick? Landon & wife, Renault

1952
1) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen, BMW 328
2) Maurice Gatsonides / George Samworth, Jaguar XK120
3) M. de Régibus, Renault
4) Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120


1953
1) Helmut Polensky / Walter Schlüter, Porsche 356 1500 S
2) Sauerwein / Gastell, Porsche 356 1500 S
3) Jacques Herzet / Lucien Bianchi, Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta Vignale
4) Zeller / H. Wencher, Porsche 356 1500 S
5) Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
6) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica

1954
no overall classification, but classes
Up to 750cc, Jean Rédelé / Louis Pons, Renault 4CV
751-1100cc, Heinz Meier / Luba, DKW F91 3=6
1001-1300cc, Wolfgang Denzel / Stroinigg, Denzel 1300
1601-2000cc, Hal O'Hara Moore / John Gott, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica
2001-2600cc, Burton / Burke, Aston Martin DB2
Over 2600cc, Eric Haddon / Charles Vivian, Jaguar XK120

1955
cancelled after the Le Mans disaster

1956
1) Collange, Alfa Romeo Giulietta
2) Claude Storez / Robert Buchet, Porsche 356 Carrera 1500 GS

1957
cancelled after the Suez crisis

1958
1) Bernard Consten / Roger de Lageneste, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
2) Guy Clarou / Géle, Alfa Romeo Giulietta
3) Riess / H. Wencher, Alfa Romeo Giulietta

1959
1) Condrillier / Robin, Renault Dauphine
2) Kühne / H. Wencher, DKW
3) Paddy Hopkirk / Jack Scott, Sunbeam Rapier


Tomorrow I'll follow with the 60ies...


Carles.

Some additions for 1952 :

1) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen (D), BMW 328
2) Maurice Gatsonides / George Samworth (NL/GB), Jaguar XK120
3) M. de Régibus / Pierre Chaix (F), Renault
4) Ian & Pat Appleyard (GB), Jaguar XK120

5. René Fabre / Jacques Fabre (F), Panhard Dyna
6. Picou /Turquetil (F), Renault
7. Gatta / Ickx (I), Lancia Aurelia
8. George Murray Frame / John Pearman (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
9. Mike Hawthron / 'Chippy' Chipperton (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
10. Stirling Moss / John Cutts (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
11. Max Nathan / Schellhaas (D), Porsche 356
12. Dr. Angelvin (F), Renault
13. Jacques Herzet / Boudon (B), Jaguar
14. Frazer / Scott (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
15. Tommy Wisdom (GB), Aston Martin
16. Sutcliffe / Sutcliffe (GB), Jaguar XK120
17. De Caralt / Prince Metternich (E/D), Porsche
18. Scott (GB), HRG
19. Marion (F), Citroen
20. Alan Tasker / Peter Riley (GB), Healey
21. Kolaczkowski / Kolaczkowski (USA), Sunbeam-Talbot
22. Rudolf Sauerwein / Sauerwein (D), Porsche 356
23. Gathieu (F), Peugeot

A.G. Imhof / Tom Lush, Allard
John Gott, Jowett Jupiter
Tommy Wise (GB), Jowett Jupiter
Bennett, Jowett Javelin
Landon, Renault
De Moussac, Renault
Clarous / Clarous (F), Renault
Vial, Renault
Mme. Bousquet, Renault
Persoglio, Renault
Schwartz, Renault
Auriach, Renault
Helmut Polensky (D), Porsche 356
Heinrich Count von der Mühle (D), Porsche 356
Mlle. Therion, Porsche
Molinelli, Porsche
Edgar Wadsworth, Healey
Grant Norton, Jaguar XK120
Ralph Sleigh / Martin, Jaguar XK120
Raymond Flower / Llewellyn, Jaguar XK120
Moffett / de Loriol (USA/F), Jaguar XK120
Martignoni, Jaguar
Cotton, Jaguar XK120
Gerakis (GR), Panhard Dyna
Nancy Mitchell / Kelleher, Sunbeam-Talbot
Gorge Hartwell, Sunbeam-Talbot
Leslie Johnson (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
Slatter, Sunbeam-Talbot
Furmann (B), MG
Roeloffzen (NL), MG
Butti, Osca
Mills, Morgan
Dickson, Morgan
Peter Bolton, Morgan
Puijenbroek, Lancia
Plateo, Lancia
Comtessa della Chiesa, Lancia
O’Hara Moore, Frazer Nash
Potter, Frazer-Nash
Needham, Lea-Francis
McKenzie, Ford Zephyr
Savon, Simca Aronde
Noix, Fiat
Shepherd, HRG
Richmond, HRG

Start (Marseille) : 88
Unpenalized Crews at Finish (Cannes) : 23
Distance: 3291 KM

Originally posted by eukie

Unpenalized Crews at Finish (Cannes) : 23

There were certainly 23 classified finishers, but only 10 of them unpenalized, so gaining the valued Coupe des Alpes trophy


Carles.

The 60ies:

1960
1) Roger de Lageneste / Henri Gréder, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
2) Pat Moss / Ann Wisdom, Austin-Healey 3000
3) José Behra / Richard, Jaguar Mk2 3.8
4) Eugen Böhringer / Socher, Mercedes-Benz 220 SE
5) Bobby Parkes / Howarth, Jaguar Mk2 3.8
6) René Trautmann / Jean-Claude Ogier, Citroën ID 19

1961
1) Donald & Erle Morley, Austin-Healey 3000
2) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
3) Paddy Hopkirk / Jack Scott, Sunbeam Rapier
4) Henri Gréder / Charron, Alpine A106
5) Peter Harper / Peter Procter, Sunbeam Rapier
6) René Trautmann / Jean-Claude Ogier, Citroën ID 19

1962
1) Donald & Erle Morley, Austin-Healey 3000
2) Hans-Joachim Walter / Walter Schlüter, Porsche 356B Carrera 2 Coupé
3) Pat Moss / Pauline Mayman, Austin-Healey 3000
4) Mike Sutcliffe / Roy Fidler, Triumph TR4
5) René Trautmann / Chopin, Citroën DS 19
6) Jean Vinatier / CHarron, Ford Zodiac

1963
no outright classification, but two classes
GT, 1) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
Touring, 1) Rauno Aaltonen / Tony Ambrose, Morris Cooper S 1071

1964
no outright classification, but two classes
GT, 1) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ
Touring, 1) Vic Elford / David Stone, Ford Cortina GT

1965
no overall classification, but three categories
Touring, 1) René Trautmann / Claudine Bouchet, Lancia Flavia Zagato
GT, 1) Bernard Consten / Jean Hébert, Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ
Proto, 1) Simo Lampinen / J. Ahava, Triumph Spitfire

1966
1) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA
2) Roger Clark / Brian Melia, Ford Lotus-Cortina
3) Rauno Aaltonen / Henry Liddon, Austin Cooper S 1275
4) Jean-François Piot / Jean-François Jacob, Renault 8 Gordini
5) Henri Gréder / Gilbert Staepelaere, Ford Lotus-Cortina
6) Günther Klass / Rolf Wütherich, Porsche 911

1967
1) Paddy Hopkirk / Ron Crellin, Morris Cooper S 1275
2) Bernard Consten / Jean-Claude Peray, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA
3) Jean-Claude & Michel Gamet, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA
4) Harry Källström / Gunnar Häggbom, Renault 8 Gordini
5) Jean-Claude Andruet / Maurice Gélin, Alpine-Renault A110 1300S
6) Sylvia Österberg / Ingalill Edenring, Renault 8 Gordini

1968
1) Jean Vinatier / Jean-François Jacob, Alpine-Renault A110 1440
2) Barailler brothers, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA
3) René & Claudine Trautmann, Lancia Fulvia Coupé Rallye HF 1.4

1969
1) Jean Vinatier / Jean-François Jacob, Alpine-Renault A110 1600S
2) Jean-Claude Andruet / Patrice Écot, Alpine-Renault A110 1600S
3) Jorma Lusenius / Seppo Halme, Alpine-Renault A110 1600S
4) René & Claudine Trautmann, Lancia Fulvia Coupé Rallye HF 1.6
5) Harry Källström / Gunnar Häggbom, Lancia Fulvia Coupé Rallye HF 1.6
6) Jean-Pierre Nicolas / Claude Roure, Alpine-Renault A110 1300S

1970
cancelled

1971
1) Bernard Darniche / Alain Mahé, Alpine-Renault A110 1600S
2) Jean Vinatier / Jean-François Jacob?, Alpine-Renault A110 1600S
3) Jean-François Piot, Ford Escort RS1600



Carles.

Originally posted by jarama



There were certainly 23 classified finishers, but only 10 of them unpenalized, so gaining the valued Coupe des Alpes trophy


Carles.

That`s true, sorry for that. Two more annotations after re-reading my sources:
- Martignoni: Jaguar or Lancia ?
- Polensky and von der Mühle: not sure if they were two seperate entries or teamed together

Carlos, thanks for the results.
I have some additions, however I don't know the source of the 1947-1952 period.
The source from 1953 and on is "Das Grosse Buch vom Rallysport" by Herbert Völker.

Originally posted by jarama
While we are waiting if someone points us to a webpage with the complete results...


1947
no outright classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Gaston Descollais, Bugatti
- Clermont, Lancia

1 Clermont
2 Descollais

1948
no overall classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Ian Appleyard / Dick Weatherhead, SS Jaguar 100 3 1/2-litre
- Leslie Potter, Allard J1
- Gaston Descollais, Lancia
- Claude, Lancia
- George Murray-Frame, Sunbeam-Talbot 90
- M. Gautruche, Citroën traction
- Robin N. Richards, HRG
- F. Auriach, Simca

1 Aplleyard
2 Potter
3 Murray Frame
4 Gautruche
5 Claude
6 Descollais

1949
no overall classification
Unpenalized finisher:
- M. Gautruche, Citroën

1950
no outright classification
Unpenalized finishers:
- Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
- Signoret, Dyna-Panhard
- Lapchin, Dyna-Panhard
- M. Grosgogeat, Dyna-Panhard
- Burgerhout, Dyna-Panhard

1950
1 Ian & Pat Appleyard
2 Signoret - Guidourbenche
3 Lapchin - Plantivaux
4 Burgerhout - Sijthoff
5 Grosgogeat - Biacini
6 Murray Frame - J.N. Pearman, Sunbeam Talbot

1951
no overall classification
- Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
- Goff Imhof / R.W. Robertson, Allard J2
- J. Habisreutinger / Walo Hörning, Jaguar XK120
- George Duff / Eric Winterbottom, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica
- Tommy & Elsie Wisdom, Aston Martin DB2
- Edgar Wadsworth / C. Corbishley, Healey Silverstone X2
- John Gott / G.W. Gillespie, HRG
- R. Piodi / A. Frairia, Lancia
- Dr. M. Angelvin & wife, Simca
- Patrick? Landon & wife, Renault

From this one I have a totally different result but maybe it's another Alp Rally
1 Landon, Renault
2 Anglevin, Simca
3 Gott, HRG 1500
4 Duff, Frazer Nash
5 Piodi, Lancia
6 Wisdom, Aston Martin

1952
1) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen, BMW 328
2) Maurice Gatsonides / George Samworth, Jaguar XK120
3) M. de Régibus, Renault
4) Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120

Despite I am fully convinced of the correctness of the given result (by Eukie) I want to give also another ranking I have. Maybe someone knows to which rally this one belongs (or it may be an in between result. Most names are mentioned in the results list.
1 De Régibus
2 Fabre
3 Picou
4 Von Falkenmhausen
5 Gatta
6 Murray Frame

1953
1) Helmut Polensky / Walter Schlüter, Porsche 356 1500 S
2) Sauerwein / Gastell, Porsche 356 1500 S
3) Jacques Herzet / Lucien Bianchi, Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta Vignale
4) Zeller / H. Wencher, Porsche 356 1500 S
5) Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
6) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica

1954
no overall classification, but classes
Up to 750cc, Jean Rédelé / Louis Pons, Renault 4CV
751-1100cc, Heinz Meier / Luba, DKW F91 3=6
1001-1300cc, Wolfgang Denzel / Stroinigg, Denzel 1300
1601-2000cc, Hal O'Hara Moore / John Gott, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica
2001-2600cc, Burton / Burke, Aston Martin DB2
Over 2600cc, Eric Haddon / Charles Vivian, Jaguar XK120

1953 no comments

1954
1 Rédélé - Pons, Renault 4CV
2 Lesur - Fulgoc, Renault 4CV
3 Meier - Luba, DKW
4 Denzel - Troinigg, Denzel (the S is missing)
5 Guiraud - Beau, Peugeot 203
6 Barbier - Rastit, Peugeot 203

1955
cancelled after the Le Mans disaster

1956
1) Collange, Alfa Romeo Giulietta
2) Claude Storez / Robert Buchet, Porsche 356 Carrera 1500 GS

3 Rickert - Kripplen, Porsche Carrera 1500
4 Blanchard - Jouanneaux, Denzel
5 Estager - Pebrel, Ferrari 3000
6 Strähle - Wencher, Porsche 1300

1957
cancelled after the Suez crisis

1958
1) Bernard Consten / Roger de Lageneste, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
2) Guy Clarou / Géle, Alfa Romeo Giulietta
3) Riess / H. Wencher, Alfa Romeo Giulietta

4 Ballisat - Bertaut, Triumph
5 Harrison - Habershorn, Ford Anglia
6 Harper - Jopp, Sunbeam

1959
1) Condrillier / Robin, Renault Dauphine
2) Kühne / H. Wencher, DKW
3) Paddy Hopkirk / Jack Scott, Sunbeam Rapier

4 Rey - Guilhaudin, DB
5 Riley - Pitts, Ford Zephyr
6 Jopp - Leston, Ford Zephyr



Gerrit Stevens

Are the single names solo drives or simply 'co-driver unknown'

Herbert Völker gives a few other data.

Originally posted by jarama
The 60ies:

1960
2) Pat Moss / Ann Wisdom, Austin-Healey 3000
4) Eugen Böhringer / Socher, Mercedes-Benz 220 SE
5) Bobby Parkes / Howarth, Jaguar Mk2 3.8

2 Moss - Riley (could this be Ann Wisdom married?)
4 Gott - Shepherd, Austin Healy 3000
5 Oreiller (Henri?) - Masoero, Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ

1961 & 1962: no comments

1963
no outright classification, but two classes
GT, 1) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia SZ
Touring, 1) Rauno Aaltonen / Tony Ambrose, Morris Cooper S 1071

2 Aaltonen - Ambrose
3 Taylor - Melia, Ford Cortina GT
4 Seigle-Morris - Hercock, Ford Cortina GT
5 Trautmann - Cherel, Citroen DS 19
6 Mrs. Mayman - Mrs. Domleo, BMC Mini Cooper

1964
no outright classification, but two classes
GT, 1) Jean Rolland / Gaby Augias, Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ
Touring, 1) Vic Elford / David Stone, Ford Cortina GT

From this one the source is most likely the Dutch car magazine "Autovisie" however I am not sure
2 Morley - Morley, Austin Healey 3000
3 J. Rey - Hanrioud, Porsche 904 GTS
4 Aaltonen - Ambrose, BMC Mini Cooper S
5 Elford - Stone, Ford Cortina GT
6 Carlsson - Palm, Saab 96 Sport

1965
no overall classification, but three categories
Touring, 1) René Trautmann / Claudine Bouchet, Lancia Flavia Zagato
GT, 1) Bernard Consten / Jean Hébert, Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ
Proto, 1) Simo Lampinen / J. Ahava, Triumph Spitfire

2 Maekinen - Easter, BMC Mini Cooper S
3 Taylor - Melia, Ford Lotus Cortina
4 Hopkirk - Liddon, BMC Mini Cooper S
5 Piot - Jacob, Renault R8 Gordini
6 Vinatier - Melot, Renault R8 Gordini

1966 & 1967 no comments
since 1968 the Coupe des Alpes results are not given by Völker

According to my sources the 1951 Coupe des Alpes was the 14th edition. Which would mean, before 1947 there were 9 other editions and the first one in 1910.

Thanks again Carles and sorry for misspelling your name in my previous mail.

Gerrit Stevens

Originally posted by eukie


Two more annotations after re-reading my sources:
- Martignoni: Jaguar or Lancia ?

I dont' know for sure, but all the entries in my database of B. Martignoni are @ the wheel of italian cars, firstly Fiats and then Lancias.


Carles.

Gerrit,

AFAIK the first Coupe des Alpes rally with overall classification was the '52 edition. Up to 1951 the overall classification was unofficial ('though according to the penalties + the tie-deciding tests you could define if Appleyard was the theoric 1st, Potter the theoric 2nd and so...) 'cause the organisers classifications were estrictly according to the cylinder capacity classes.

Carles.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gerrit stevens
[B]



From this one I have a totally different result but maybe it's another Alp Rally
1 Landon, Renault
2 Anglevin, Simca
3 Gott, HRG 1500
4 Duff, Frazer Nash
5 Piodi, Lancia
6 Wisdom, Aston Martin



This probably results from the comments on my previous post. The names are the same, 'though in different order.


Carles

Originally posted by gerrit stevens


1954
1 Rédélé - Pons, Renault 4CV
2 Lesur - Fulgoc, Renault 4CV
3 Meier - Luba, DKW
4 Denzel - Troinigg, Denzel (the S is missing)
5 Guiraud - Beau, Peugeot 203
6 Barbier - Rastit, Peugeot 203

By 1954 the organisers reverted to the previous standards publishing only classifications by classes, not overall. Then, Rédelé and Lésur were 1st and 2nd in the "Up to 750cc Class", Meier 1st in the "751-1000cc Class", Denzel, Guiraud and Barbier were 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the "1001-1300cc Class" and so...


Carles.

Originally posted by D-Type
Are the single names solo drives or simply 'co-driver unknown'

Are "unknown co-drivers", the rules not allowing the "solo" drives.


Carles.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Herbert Völker gives a few other data.



2 Moss - Riley (could this be Ann Wisdom married?)
4 Gott - Shepherd, Austin Healy 3000
5 Oreiller (Henri?) - Masoero, Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ


Gerrit Stevens

Riley certainly was Ann Wisdom after the marriage with Peter Riley... anyway the marriage was held, if my database is correct, after the '62 Monte-Carlo (finishing on 27th January) and before the '62 Safari (19th-23rd April), so in 1960 she was still Ann Wisdom.


Carles.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Herbert Völker gives a few other data.




4 Gott - Shepherd, Austin Healy 3000
5 Oreiller (Henri?) - Masoero, Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ


Gerrit Stevens

According to my database, John Gott / Bill Shepherd finished 8th overall ('though 4th in GT Category) while Henri Oreiller / Fernand Masoero were 5th in GT Category.


Carles.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
[B


According to my sources the 1951 Coupe des Alpes was the 14th edition. Which would mean, before 1947 there were 9 other editions and the first one in 1910.

You're right. AFAIK the editions pre-2nd World War, were held artenaltively in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France and Germany (I don't know the order) and changing the organiser commitee every year. After the war, the rally organised by the "Automobile Club de Marseille et Provence" (depending on the year named Rallye International des Alpes, Critérium International des Alpes, Critérium International de la Montagne or simply, Coupe des Alpes) was the most important of all, 'though the Austrians held the Int.Österreichische Alpenfahrt as well.


Thanks again Carles and sorry for misspelling your name in my previous mail.

Please, don't worry. Only difference, Carles is in Catalan while Carlos is in Spanish ;)

Gerrit Stevens [/B]

Originally posted by jarama

You're right. AFAIK the editions pre-2nd World War, were held artenaltively in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France and Germany (I don't know the order) and changing the organiser commitee every year. After the war, the rally organised by the "Automobile Club de Marseille et Provence" (depending on the year named Rallye International des Alpes, Critérium International des Alpes, Critérium International de la Montagne or simply, Coupe des Alpes) was the most important of all, 'though the Austrians held the Int.Österreichische Alpenfahrt as well.

Herbert Völker does also gives results from the Österreichischer Alpenfahrt from 1964 until 1973

About your other comments. I know Völker has several errors; e.g. he gives the same result for the East Africa Safari Rally 1954 and 1955, so I immediately believe your remarks in your other messages.

I am still looking for the results (top six at least) of a number of other European rallys like
1000 Lakes before 1961
Mittnatsolen (Sweden) before 1965
Blumenrally (San Remo before before 1964
Tulpenrally before 1953
Rallye Sestrières
Rallye de Genève
and some others

Maybe I will start a thread on some of these rallyes (or is it rallies or rallys),

Gerrit Stevens

BTW I am wondering sinc you are Catalonian you are choosing Jarama i.s.o. Montjuic.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens

I am still looking for the results (top six at least) of a number of other European rallys like
1000 Lakes before 1961
Mittnatsolen (Sweden) before 1965
Blumenrally (San Remo before before 1964
Tulpenrally before 1953
Rallye Sestrières
Rallye de Genève
and some others


I can help you with some of these results.


BTW I am wondering sinc you are Catalonian you are choosing Jarama i.s.o. Montjuic.

Up to 1999 I was running a bar in Barcelona named "Jarama". Then I entered in the world of Internet, and in the moment of register myself in TNF I choose the name of the bar...

Gerrit,
are you aware of this forum?

Originally posted by jarama
While we are waiting if someone points us to a webpage with the complete results...

1953
1) Helmut Polensky / Walter Schlüter, Porsche 356 1500 S
2) Sauerwein / Gastell, Porsche 356 1500 S
3) Jacques Herzet / Lucien Bianchi, Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta Vignale
4) Zeller / H. Wencher, Porsche 356 1500 S
5) Ian & Pat Appleyard, Jaguar XK120
6) Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen, Frazer Nash High Speed Le Mans Replica

1953 provisional results as published in "Autocar" (GB)

Start (Marseille) : 101 Teams
Finish (Cannes) : 54 Teams (25 unpenalized)

1. Helmut Polensky / Walter Schlüter (D), Porsche
2. Rudolf Sauerwein / O. Castell (D), Porsche
3. Jacques Herzet / Lucien Bianchi (B), Ferrari
4. Kurt (?) Zeller / Hans Wencher (D), Porsche 356
5. Ian Appleyard / Pat Appleyard (GB), Jaguar
6. Alex von Falkenhausen / Kitty von Falkenhausen (D), Frazer Nash
7. Von Hoesch / Bossanyi (D), Porsche
8. Gatta / Cottino, Lancia
9. Giovanni Lurani / Di Stambuy, Lancia
10. Fraikin / Olivier Gendebien, Jaguar
11. Stempert / Schwartz, Panhard
12. Buzto Marques / Slobet, Porsche
13. Fabregas / Apeztegua, Lancia
14. Stirling Moss / J. Cutts (GB), Sunbeam Alpine
15. Schwob d’Hericourt / A. de Roquefort, Panhard
16. José Maria De Caralt / Blesa (E), Porsche
17. Chieusse / Chieusse, Panhard
18. George Murray-Frame / Pearman (GB), Sunbeam Alpine
19. Persoglio / Gatinel, Renault
20. John Fitch / Peter Miller (USA), Sunbeam Alpine
21. Poletti / Cipriani, Simca
22. Mansbridge / Mansbridge, Jaguar
23. Asso / Borelly, Alfa Romeo
24. Sheila van Damm / Ann Hall (GB), Sunbeam Alpine
25. Marion / Champel, Citroen
Further classified as finishers :
26. R. Fabre / J. Fabre, Panhard
=. Gerakis / Gravier, Panhard
=. Cavallini / Cavallini, Fiat
29. Dalfiume / Baré, Citroen
30. Parucci / Martin, Panhard
=. O’Hara Moore / Gott (GB), Frazer Nash
=. Rastit / Caubet, Peugeot
33. Raymond Flower / Ortenalli, MG
34. Harry Sutcliffe / Sutcliffe (GB), Frazer Nash
35. Bennett / Gallford, Sunbeam-Talbot
36. Mitchell / Leavens, Ford
37. Lee / Dando, Sunbeam-Talbot
38. Giro / Iglesias, Porsche
39. Slatter / Massey (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
40. Vegler / Giraud, Ferrari
41. Barthelemy / Krier, Aston Martin
42. Auphan / Tessore, Citroen
43. Roubaud / Servizet, Renault
44. Noix / Grazyuski, Peugeot
=. Gilberte Thirion / Renaud, Porsche
46. Borgeaud / Conte, Jaguar
47. R.S. Henson / J.A. Cooper, Jaguar
48. De Regibus / Chapus, Renault
49. Mattock / Worthington, Jaguar
50. Kat / Bronfield, Rover
51. Arnaud / Caire, Renault
52. Needham / Gramp, Hillman Minx
53. Wurstenberger / Heuberger, Aston Martin
54. Deutsch / Rousselle, Aston Martin
Retired:
Maurice Gatsonides (NL), Ford Taunus
Dr. Barker (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
G.T. Gibson / J.E. Milne (GB), MG
W.H. Waring / Bennett (GB), Jaguar
Galliford (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
Elliott (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
Hörning / Habisreutiger (CH), Jaguar
W.A. McKenzie (GB), Hillman Minx
Hammersley, Lancia
„Hervé“, Aston Martin
George Hartwell / Scott (GB), Sunbeam-Talbot
Collins, Sunbeam Alpine
Leslie Johnson (GB), Sunbeam Alpine
Buschmann (D), Porsche
Franzer / Price, Sunbeam-Talbot
Stempert, ?
Bernestein, Jowett
Cunane, Jowett
Burgess, Aston Martin
Edgar Wadsworth (GB), Healey
Derek, Morgan
Charles Fothergill (GB), Vanguard
Tozzi Condivi, Sunbeam-Talbot
Grosgogeat (F), Panhard

Originally posted by ReWind
Gerrit,
are you aware of this forum?

ReWind

thanks for pointing me to this forum.


Gerrit Stevens

@ Gerrit: You're welcome!

I already noticed you being busy over there.

Does anyone know where I could possibly find a results site for the Coupe Des Alpes?

I'm trying to identify the following cars/years/drivers:





And this is possibly a Saab from a Scandinavian Rally, in the 1960s, about to crash. Could anyone please identify where, what and when?



Thanks!

I sympathize, as I've been combing the web for at least 3 years trying to find a complete list of entrants in the 1958 Coupe Des Alpes Rally. Most magazine articles listed the top class finishers only (due to space). Rarely do they even mention the race numbers. The book on the Alpine Rally is a compilation of contemporary magazine articles, with the same limitations (this forum pretty well reprints those results). There were booklets published prior to some of the early races listing all entrants, so it is possible to gather this data together someday, I hope!

Edited by Phil Anderson, 12 November 2009 - 19:54.

I had never seen the earlier posts before. I can't see the photos in the first post quoted above (just red Xs) but from later posts, is one of the blue Alfa No.212 ? This was not a competitor but was a "spoof" entry used for film sequences in the Shell film "Coupe des Alpes".
Probably the best place for information (in French) is here:
http://www.forum-aut...sujet343197.htm
where I understand a book is being planned by the thread opener.

Alpine Rally Results 1952
General Category
With points gained on formula in daily
special tests (speed trials at Monza, hill-
climbs on mountain passes).
 1. #216 Alex & Kitty von Falkenhausen BMW 328 Won 2000cc class                     B53-4973 517.823 points
 2.      Maurice Gatsonides/George Samworth Jaguar XK120 Won unlimited class                 501.393
 3.      Ernest de Régibus/Pierre Chaix Renault Won 750cc class                              493.3
 4.      Ian Appleyard/Pat Appleyard Jaguar XK120                                   NUB 120  492.809
 5.      René Fabre/Jacques Fabre  Panhard Dyna                                              486.371
 6.      Louis Picon/Turquetil  Renault 4CV                                                  478.963                   
 7.      Ferdinando Gatta/Jacques Ickx  Lancia Aurelia                                       466.155 
 8. #320 George Murray Frame/John Pearman  Sunbeam-Talbot 90 Won 3000cc class        LHP 821 455.747                                  
 9. #326 Mike Hawthorn/'Chippy' Chipperton  Sunbeam-Talbot 90                        KNX 955 450.819
10. #316 Stirling Moss/John Cutts  Sunbeam-Talbot 90                                 LHP 823 450.412 
11.      Max Nathan/Schellhaas  Porsche 356 Won 1500cc class                                 530.220 plus 20 lost
12.      Dr. Marc Angelvin  Renault                                                          457.925 plus 20 lost 
13.      Jacques Herzet/Boudon  Jaguar XK120                                                 40 lost
14. #306 Frazer/Scott  Sunbeam-Talbot                                                MEL 63  50 lost
15.      Tommy Wisdom  Aston Martin DB2                                                      55 lost                                         
16.      Sutcliffe/Sutcliffe  Jaguar XK120                                                   75 lost
17.      De Caralt/Prince Metternich  Porsche                                                90 lost 
18.      Scott  HRG                                                                          140 lost
19.      Marion  Citroën                                                                     150 lost 
20.      Alan Tasker/Peter Riley  Healey Silverstone                                         210 lost
21. #324 Count W. Kolaczkowski/Mrs.Kolaczkowski Sunbeam-Talbot                       KWK 397 210 lost
22.      Rudolf Sauerwein/Sauerwein  Porsche 356                                             220 lost
23.      Gathieu  Peugeot                                                                    325 lost

The above is 'best efforts' based on a number of sources. RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 18 February 2016 - 16:23.

A book about the Alpine Rally was released last year 2015.

 

The title is The Rise and Fall of the French Alpine Rally by renowned Alpine Rally historian Martin Pfundner with much help from Andrew Swann

 

The ISBN is 978-3-85119-361-9

 

Price around 49 Euros

 

Its listed on Reinhard Kleins Rally Web Shop site http://www.rallyandr...ywebshop/Books/

 

ALL the entry lists/results for every Alpine Rally covered by in 60 pages in the book from 1932 to 1970. For example the 1952 rally mentioned above has 3 pages of entry list/results.

 

192 pages with text in English, lots of black & white photos.

 

At long last a very good book about the AlpineRally with as complete set of entry lists and results, unless of course you can fill in some blanks!!!

 

Ref the 1952 Alpine Rally there were 14 Sunbeam Talbots on this event. Below is copied direct from my spread sheet.

 

                                                                                       comp no o/a   class

80 GWD 102  Mrs MITCHELL/Dr D KELLEHER 204 RET   Hart spec LEL 333 GR HARTWELL/S PRICE 300 RET   Mk2 D/H OPA 6 DH PERRING/MARSHALL 302 RET   Mk2A LLJ 900 Dr JP SLATER/CRAMP 304 RET   Mk2A MEL 63 AB FRASER/SCOTT 306 14 4 Mk2A LHP 823 S MOSS/J CUTTS 316 10 3 Mk2 KUE 90 L JOHNSON/D HUMPHREY 318 RET   Mk2 LHP 821 G MURRAY-FRAME/J PEARMAN 320 8 1 Mk2 KKV 780 J FITCH/P MILLER 322 RET   Mk2 KWK 397 Count W KOLACZKOWSKI/KOLACZKOWSKI 324 21 8 Mk2A KNX 955 M HAWTHORN/WR CHIPPERTON 326 9 2 Mk2A MVM 797 R HENSON/COLLINSON 336 RET   Mk2A FVY 520 ELLIOT/ELLIOT 342 RET   MK2 D/H ETH 816? CINEMA CAR PRESS    

 

Chris

Disclaimer: I have neither seen nor copied information from this book. RGDS RLT

http://forums.autosp...dpost&p=7392593