Big cars, sprint cars, midgets

How they differed from each other technically? Engine capacity, dimensions? Was 'big cars' official name of the class?

In short: "Big cars" was a term that appears to have come into use in the 30s, for dirt cars that ran on the big mile- and half-mile tracks as opposed to short tracks (quarter-mile or even shorter). This is slightly confusing, since the term was used for many years for both Champ (dirt) cars and Sprint cars. Often, these two categories used practically the same engines, the only difference being in the wheelbase (Champ cars were usually 100 inches long, Sprints less). Also, Champ cars was a term used exclusively for cars to be raced on the AAA (later USAC) National Championship trail, while there were several Sprint car circuits (= sanctioning bodies), such as IMCA, CRA and, of course, AAA.

In the thirties, Midgets became a very popular phenomenon, with races almost every day of the week, every week of the year. This continued right until the early fifties. Midgets were the racing car for the man on the street, and several sanctioning bodies and circuits developed, with widely varying intensity of competition and professionalism. Generally, I believe, capacity limit for Midgets was 90 cubic inch (ca. 1500cc), but later that varied, too.

Once a driver decided to become really serious, he needed to progress to "Big cars", meaning in effect Sprints - the most popular circuit in the 30s was the Pacific Coast Championship, and I may be able to find some tech rules by some digging, given a little time. These races were held mainly on half-mile or 5/8-mile tracks, and occasionally even on the miles. In the 40s and 50s, races on the miles were generally for Champ cars, and shorter tracks for Sprints - although there were exceptions, of course!

I know this is very confusing, since I don't believe I have digested it myself completely : Maybe someone can take over? Jim? Don? Gerald?

I am at the office and leaving for a meeting, so will reply this evening on some of this, although Michael has managed to do a good job on the broad idea and why this is a challenge.

Originally posted by fines
In short: "Big cars" was a term that appears to have come into use in the 30s, for dirt cars that ran on the big mile- and half-mile tracks as opposed to short tracks (quarter-mile or even shorter). This is slightly confusing, since the term was used for many years for both Champ (dirt) cars and Sprint cars. Often, these two categories used practically the same engines, the only difference being in the wheelbase (Champ cars were usually 100 inches long, Sprints less). Also, Champ cars was a term used exclusively for cars to be raced on the AAA (later USAC) National Championship trail, while there were several Sprint car circuits (= sanctioning bodies), such as IMCA, CRA and, of course, AAA.

In the thirties, Midgets became a very popular phenomenon, with races almost every day of the week, every week of the year. This continued right until the early fifties. Midgets were the racing car for the man on the street, and several sanctioning bodies and circuits developed, with widely varying intensity of competition and professionalism. Generally, I believe, capacity limit for Midgets was 90 cubic inch (ca. 1500cc), but later that varied, too.

Once a driver decided to become really serious, he needed to progress to "Big cars", meaning in effect Sprints - the most popular circuit in the 30s was the Pacific Coast Championship, and I may be able to find some tech rules by some digging, given a little time. These races were held mainly on half-mile or 5/8-mile tracks, and occasionally even on the miles. In the 40s and 50s, races on the miles were generally for Champ cars, and shorter tracks for Sprints - although there were exceptions, of course!

I know this is very confusing, since I don't believe I have digested it myself completely : Maybe someone can take over? Jim? Don? Gerald?

If you read John Gilbert's Outlaw Sprint Car Racer about his career fromt he teens to WWII, he raced sprint cars, on tracks up to 2 miles in length.
It is a very interesting read, that will teach you items about early racing you will get nowhere else.

Excellant book that will open more than a few eyes.
Bob

Get hold of a copy of "The BIG Wheel". Mine is on video. With Mickey Rooney as the star it features heaps of midget, roadster and as Mickey often called them "big cars".
Plenty of actual footage of post war racing, nostalgic workshop and pit scenes. Culminating in the 1947 ? Indianapolis 500. The film is old and grainy but where else are you going to find this sort of history?
Now if I can find a copy of "To Please a Lady" with Clark Gable!

"Big Cars" is often used in reference to both Sprinters and Champ Cars, mostly because both classes are physically larger than Midgets. Champ Cars usually ran a 100-inch wheelbase (postwar, at least), Sprinters something like 88-90, and Midgets were down around 75 (I don't have my books handy atm). IIRC, both Sprinters and Champ Cars ran same or similarly sized engines, usually blown Offenhausers, although there were occasional forays into stock block territory. Occasionally you'd see the smaller cars running with the big boys, which only serves to confuse the issue. But the early sixties, Sprinters had evolved far enough from Champ Cars that the two were not usually seen on track at the same time.

Midgets, while noticeably smaller, looked a lot like the bigger cars, especially when built buy Kurtis or Watson, who of course built both types. Midgets also usually ran Offys (1500cc blown, I think), although Ford V8-60 mills were not uncommon. I've also seen a few powered by outboard motors and Harley V-Twins. These too have evolved to be unrecognizable when compared to an old car (although one still sees the occasional Offy powered car out there).

Sorry this is still vague, I've not got any books or articles handy right now (all packed away!)

-Wm.

While we're in this area, what exactly was a 'roadster'?
I know they were front engined, powered by unsupercharged Offy engines and ran at Indy. Presumably the term only applies to those that had offset engines and driving positions. Does that mean they were a particular type of Champ Car?

Originally posted by D-Type
While we're in this area, what exactly was a 'roadster'?
I know they were front engined, powered by unsupercharged Offy engines and ran at Indy. Presumably the term only applies to those that had offset engines and driving positions. Does that mean they were a particular type of Champ Car?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head, they were a specific style (as specific as indy cars can be anyway) of FE Indy car.
If you put one nest to a dirt track style FE car, of the same erea, the difference is obvious.
On occasion there were some roadster sprint cars, Greg Weld being a driver who drove one. ( This is on memory)
Go to the Trackforum nostalgia section, there are a lot of people posting there who are from Indianapolis.
Bob
PS--Some were tried with other engines, but most were Offenhausers.
If you look at race results beyond Indy sometimes you will see different variations.

Kurtis built a few Roadster style midgets, with offset engines and low-slung bodywork. after that, the more traditional midgets were called "uprights". Roadster style midgets didn't appear to catch on, though.

-WDH

The term "Big Cars" seems to come into being during 1920s, but really takes hold in the early 1930s. As best I can figure, it seemed to start with the IMCA and then the other "outlaw" organizations before it found its way into the AAA lexicon. Its derivation seems to be deceptively simple: while the AAA was spotlighting its little jewel-like 122 and 91-cubic inch cars on the board tracks, IMCA and the others were running cars with larger displacement engines on the dirt tracks all over the East, Midwest, and Pacific Coast. The cars were literally bigger than the Millers and Duesenbergs, but the term "Big Car" seems to be initially used as a general term in the late 1920s, there being some gaps in my research as to earlier in the decade.

Even before the planked board tracks began to disappear from the scene in the late 1920s, there were many within the AAA racing community already pressing for a separate dirt track championship, in great part bacause IMCA and others were clobbering the AAA in certain "markets," IMCA have a lock on many of the Western and Midwestern fairground tracks. Their race card of a number of a number of short qualifying heats, consolation rounds for a few more to make the main event, and a relatively short main event (usually 50 miles, occasionally 100 miles, but rarely over that) was a winning formula. Although the AAA had a firm base in the Los Angeles area -- Ascot -- and a few other dirt tracks here and there, it was obvious they needed to step up their game, especially since the Contest Board was supposed to be self-supporting.

The collapse of the board tracks and other changes in how the AAA Contest Board approached racing by the Spring of 1929 really changed the parameters for the sport. The AAA took aim at the market that IMCA and the others dominated -- and in which AAA essentially did not do as well as it could -- and when the rules approved in late 1928 for use in 1930 opened up the engine sizes, the AAA now had a winning hand. For obvious reasons, the new cars got the moniker "Big Cars" since they were literally larger than the older 122 and 91 cars.

As Michael points out, there was an explosion of racing at this time in many parts of the country. The typical program of short heats -- "sprints" as they were called in the mid-1920s by the AAA, consolation races, finals and trophy dashes worked. Interestingly, there was just about enough business to go around so that the AAA, IMCA, CRA, and others all managed to moreorless co-exist for a good while. The "Big Cars" were the coin of the realm and at some point much later on, by the mid-1950s it seems, came to be called Sprint Cars and those Big Cars used on the National Championship Trail became "Champ Cars."

In the mid-1930s, a new class of racing cars arose in Southern California. Small, relatively inexpensive, needing only quarter-mile or shorter tracks, the Midgets were wildly popular from the git-go, spreading from the Pacific Coast to the East in the blink of an eye. However, there were those on the Contest Board were somehow could not deal with calling a racing car class "Midgets" and so they got the Contest Board to officially dub the class as the "Small Car" class. So, you had the Champ Cars, the Big Cars (there often being not much difference twix a Champ Car and a Big Car except where it ran and some tech specs), and the Small Cars -- which everyone persisted in calling Midgets, even members of the Contest Board.

Sorry, pretty much down and dirty, but it might help at least a little bit.

Roadsters are an interesting problem in nomenclature. Originally, they were developments of the California "jalopy" concept and during the post-WW2 period were kudzu like the Midgets in the racing world. A.J. Watson, Rollie Vollstedt, and many others got their start building roadsters. There are several stories as to how the Indianapolis Roadsters got their name, but they certainly differed from most their immediate predecessors which were often simply dirt track cars modified for the IMS. In some ways, they were a return to what had been the case in the immediate pre-War period when Wilbur Shaw figured out that the best way to win at the IMS was to realize the horses-for-courses idea was what worked best -- hence his car and the Maserati he used in his last rides there.

Originally posted by WDH74
Midgets also usually ran Offys (1500cc blown, I think), although Ford V8-60 mills were not uncommon. I've also seen a few powered by outboard motors and Harley V-Twins.

Usually not blown.

Also, Dale Drake, who, with Louie Meyer bought out Fred Offenhauser after WW2, built a midget engine back in the 30's. It was a variation of the knucklehead HD motor of the day, with water cooled cylinders replacing the stock units. There's a nice page concerning a Drake engined midget restoration and some info on the Drake midget motors here.

A note on John Gilber above, the car he drove for most of his career was a "bob-tail"

Tere was nothing between him and the car behind him except the back of his seat.
He retired it when he build a new car with a larger engine; His driver was already using a conventional style car with a larger engine, so he finally drove one also.

He built his own engines, using part based on or directly from Chevrolet, Ford and Knight engines, including his own SOHC cylinder head.
Bob

I Recently found two GMP 1/43 sets on EBAY,
that both have a midget, a sprint car, and a big car..
all in in one, sorry, two set(s)
That at last told me the difference!
Now I (or I, hope I) know
sometimes, models are very useful,
if not Decorative??

Paul

The term, "Champ Car", had not caught on at the Milwaukee track as late as 1969. The big theatre style sign outside the track advertised, "Big Car Race". The race program cover stated, "200 Mile National Championship Race --Speedway Cars--". Inside the program, they were refered to as both "Big Cars", and "Speedway Big Cars". No wonder there has been some confusion over the years.

John Gilbert's "Outlaw Sprint Car Racer" sounds very interesting. Where can I find a copy of this book?
Anton

Originally posted by Kvadrat
How they differed from each other technically? Engine capacity, dimensions? Was 'big cars' official name of the class?

Vladimir,

You ask a great question, one I'm sure many on TNF outside the United States have wondered. And, as you can see, it's also a tough question to answer precisely, though Bill gave a nice capsule. Despite some of us being quite familiar with these cars, and myself seeing many races, it's difficult to get down the basic rules. I'll look around my material, but actual specs seem hard to find. Needless to say, there has been some evolution even in these classes. Particularly in Midgets where new engines would arrive.

When I get the chance, I'll look through my material and see if I can turn up any specifics.

The use of the V8-60 engine in midgets makes me wonder if they ever had a capacity limit...

Here the Holden 6 became the most common fitment after A-model 4s died out, and they were all well over two litres.

I think it must have been a case of 'whatever your shoehorn can get in there' will do...

Originally posted by D-Type
While we're in this area, what exactly was a 'roadster'?
I know they were front engined, powered by unsupercharged Offy engines and ran at Indy. Presumably the term only applies to those that had offset engines and driving positions. Does that mean they were a particular type of Champ Car?

D-Type,

Another good question. For years both types of cars were simply called Roadsters. To help differentiate, many (myself included) try to refer to the short track cars as Track Roadsters versus Indy Roadsters.

Track Roadsters originated out of Hot Rods. The street rodders got into racing on the dry lakes (and streets!) and then moved over to short dirt and paved ovals. Some of the cars were very crude and unsophisticated, but some quickly became short track state of the art for the era and there were some remarkably good looking and well crafted cars turned out. Particularly in Southern California with the custom and paint specialists. Most common were cut down Model A body style.

The best I can come up with is the following gallery of Track Roadsters in Washington State:

http://www.autohobbies.com/waroadsters (and yes, the same Pete Lovely who drove later drove in F1!).

Don Radbruch, who can be found on TNF from time to time, raced Track Roadsters and did the wonderful books "Roaring Roadsters" and "Roaring Roadsters #2", which is the first effort to truly chronicle this short but fascinating chapter in U.S. short track racing. As Bill/Don writes, Track Roadsters were very popular in Southern California and rapidly expanded across the country, producing many future Indy and Championship drivers and builders, despite a heyday that only ran from about 1946 through 1952.

And yes, to muddy the waters even more, as WDH notes, there were some "roadster" style Midgets and even Indy roadsters that were converted into Sprint Cars or Super Modifieds.

Interesting thread. ISTR much being made of Lee Wallard's winning the '51 Indy 500 in Murrell Belanger's "small" car. Wasn't its wheelbase closer to that of a sprint car?

Can others provide more detail?

Originally posted by wily man
Get hold of a copy of "The BIG Wheel". Mine is on video. With Mickey Rooney as the star it features heaps of midget, roadster and as Mickey often called them "big cars".
Plenty of actual footage of post war racing, nostalgic workshop and pit scenes. Culminating in the 1947 ? Indianapolis 500. The film is old and grainy but where else are you going to find this sort of history?

.....and the rear projection footage of Mr Rooney sawing away at the wheel are priceless!

[Edit: BTW do a search on the The Wild Ride thread....one of Jack Nicholsons first movies with good racing footage]

.
Some roadsters, sprint cars, and midgets among others in Dave Smith's photos

More references and a few photos in the second of these programs

The term "big car" was not used until the 1930s when the midgets appeared on the scene. There had to be someway to differentiate between the two types of race cars. Since the little ones were midgets the full sized race cars became "big cars"---simple and logical thinking.

Before the midgets came along there were just "race cars", sometimes called "dirt track cars" and even "one mans". The "big car" name stuck until about 1950 when somebody started calling them "sprint cars".

If I may stick in a bit of a commercial my book "Dirt Track Auto Racing, 1919-1941" covers the subject very well with lots of photos from all over the US and Canada. I will be happy to provide further information on the book to anybody who is interested.

Originally posted by Lotus23
Interesting thread. ISTR much being made of Lee Wallard's winning the '51 Indy 500 in Murrell Belanger's "small" car. Wasn't its wheelbase closer to that of a sprint car?

Can others provide more detail?

While I didn't take the time to look up the specs of the 1951 Belanger #99, I believe the nickname "small car" refers to the rather diminuitive look of the car, not its wheelbase (which would have had to meet the AAA Contest Board's minimum at least). I believe also that its Offenhauser engine was a good bit smaller than the 4.5 liter (274cid) maximum allowed by AAA at the time.

The car, as displayed in the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum (where it's been since at least the late 1950's), when viewed in a row of its contemporaries, appears quite delicate compared to other cars against which it competed, much narrower chassis & bodywork than say, the 1949-50 Kurtis which Johnnie Parsons drove to victory in 1950, and certainly more compact than either the Novi front-drive and the Blue Crown Spark Plug Spl. of Mauri Rose. It is certainly much less bulky-looking than the Kurtis roadster built in 1952 for Bill Vukovich (winning car 1953-54), about the only thing appearing larger being the tail, which is taller, due to the size of the fuel tank. I imagine also that this car was perhaps one of the lightest, if not the lightest, weight cars entered at that time, probably very, very close to the minimum weight allowed.

Probably the nickname stemmed from comments by other teams and drivers, as well as the press at the time, they seeing the same visual characteristics I see when I look at the car today.

Art

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


Track Roadsters originated out of Hot Rods. The street rodders got into racing on the dry lakes (and streets!) and then moved over to short dirt and paved ovals. Some of the cars were very crude and unsophisticated, but some quickly became short track state of the art for the era and there were some remarkably good looking and well crafted cars turned out. Particularly in Southern California with the custom and paint specialists. Most common were cut down Model A body style.

Jim,

While Model A roadster bodies (in particular the 1930-31 roadster) were plentiful, the "classic" track roadsters were Model T bodied, particularly those running at tracks in Southern California and even in the midwest. This I believe was due to the difference in weight between the two era's of Ford body shells--a "T-bucket" weighs about 75% of what a Model A bodyshell comes in at, once stripped out, and is much more easily channeled down over a set of frame rails. A fair number of "Track T's" as they came to be called in later years were also built up using rectangular tubing for the frame rails, using roughly the dimensions of a Model T frame, often "Z-d" at the rear to provide a kickup to the frame over the rear axle and lowering the frame (and the overall height of the car" even more.

The "Track T" or "Track-style T" grew beyond the roadster-racing era into a pretty common street rod building style by the late 1950's, and is still seen today in rodding, where channeled Model A's (and 32's as well) were then, and still are, far less common, due to the construction problems faced in channeling (raising the lower body framework, creating a "channel" underneath, to allow the body shell to be dropped down over the frame for lowness), and are still commonly referred to as Track T's or just plain "Tracksters", even though this type of car hasn't seen an oval track race in at least 50 years or so.

Art

Originally posted by antonvrs
John Gilbert's "Outlaw Sprint Car Racer" sounds very interesting. Where can I find a copy of this book?
Anton

Anton, I apologize, as I had the book next to me on the shelf but did not check his last name, it is GERBER not Gilbert.
Anyway:
I put Outlaw Sprint Car Racer in Google's "advanced search", using the title as an "exact phrase" and many stores that carry it came up.
I do not know your location but do this and you can choose one that is closest.
Bob

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


Jim,

While Model A roadster bodies (in particular the 1930-31 roadster) were plentiful, the "classic" track roadsters were Model T bodied, particularly those running at tracks in Southern California and even in the midwest.

Art,

Right you are. I originally posted that the cars were Model T bodied - the cut down "Bucket T" style and then corrected it. I was right the first time, wrong the second

Having started my (long dreaded) foray into the "Junk Formula" era, it occured to me that the term "Big Car" must've been coined in 1930 to differentiate the usual Dirt Track racers from the two-seaters obligatory in Indianapolis. Before that, racers were either "Track" racers or "Dirt" racers (with some overlap, as would be the case until the advent of the "funny cars"). When Indy suddenly demanded those "freak" machines, there was a new sharp line between the bespoke "Indianapolis Cars" and the big single seaters used elsewhere.

Later, when Indy went monoposto again in 1938, the line became blurred, and it took some years to finally establish a new terminology, "Champ Cars" and "Sprints". As for "Big Car" rules, one thing I found is that in 1934 the AAA changed the capacity limit from 220 cubic inches (3605cc), which was said to have been in place "for years", to 200ci (3277cc) for the "Pacific Coast Championship" (another source mentions 205ci/3359cc, though - perhaps it was 201ci/3300cc?). In the "Eastern" and "Midwest" series the limit appears to have been 366ci/6000cc, as in Indy. Other racing organisations and sanctioning bodies had their own limits, e.g. the well-known IMCA circuit appears to have been virtually Formula Libre, CRA had "limits ranging from 214ci (3500cc) to 274ci (4500cc) over the years".

In 1938, AAA went for the "International Formula" (4500cc u/s, 3000cc s/c), but soon reduced the unsupercharged limit to 205ci (1941), then 210ci (1946), though it is possible these limits only applied to OHC engines!? IMCA introduced 4500cc after WW2.

Supercharged engines were rarely used as far as I can see, and in 1952 AAA limited them to 138ci/2261cc, with OHC engines up to 220ci again and stock-blocks up to 305ci/5000cc. USAC started in 1956 with 220ci (OHC) and 336ci/5500cc (SB), supercharging apparently banned. 1961 saw SB engines up to 6000cc, and OHC engines changing almost every year until they settled at 4200cc in 1963. Or thereabouts!?

Well, if you think you're confused you have no idea what I am!

Michael,

I think that you are a bit confused in certain areas, especially the reduction to 205 cu in in 1941 and then 210 cu in in 1946, assuming you are referring to cars running the NCT. Ditto with the 138 cu in for supercharged engines in 1952.

There is ample opportunity to get completely confused if you work at when attempting to sort all of this out since you really need to pay attention to the CB Bulletins and so forth.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Michael,

I think that you are a bit confused in certain areas, especially the reduction to 205 cu in in 1941 and then 210 cu in in 1946, assuming you are referring to cars running the NCT.

No no, I was always refering to Big Cars of the Sprint variety, if you know what I mean!

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
There is ample opportunity to get completely confused if you work at when attempting to sort all of this out since you really need to pay attention to the CB Bulletins (...)

... which I don't have access to!

Originally posted by fines
No no, I was always refering to Big Cars of the Sprint variety, if you know what I mean!

Contest rules for the Sprints from Way Back are a deep, dark, ugly hole into which none of those who have fallen into it have ever been heard of or seen since..... Been nice knowing you, Michael....

There's interesting article at http://www.motorspor...rs&D=2000-05-16. What are "three-quarter midget" and "quarter midget"?

I read Venable's The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds and found that there's a car called MG Magic Midget. What did "Midget" mean in it's name? Can it be that someone in America adopted the name for their new class of racing cars?

Midget just means small
The MG company marketed a range of cars called MG Midgets, one of which was developed for record-breaking and became known by the nickname "Magic Midget"
The only connection between MG Midgets and midget-car racing in the US (and elsewhere) was the adoption of the same word to show they were small cars

Here's one I can help with, I raced 1/4 midgets as a kid. Like the name suggests, they were scaled down versions of midgets, except with the engine in the rear. They're for kids aged 5-16. They've changed the engine classes a bit since I stopped running, but for a long time the engines were 1 cylinder DECO engines. They were actually old army generator engines I believe. Stock they produced around 5 horsepower, though the higher up classes could get quite a bit more out of them. They ran on gas, except the top class was converted to run on alcohol. They've introduced some new Honda engine classes since I got out, but the old DECO classes are still around. The tracks are 1/20th mile ovals, mostly paved but some dirt. The top classes will turn laps in under 6 seconds, so things happen pretty quickly. 1/2 midgets are an offshoot of 1/4 midgets, much more closely related to 1/4 midgets than 3/4 midgets. 1/2 midget is actually treated as a class of 1/4 midget. The rules are much more open, 1/4 midget rules are pretty tight. Honda snowmobile engines were pretty popular in the 1/2 midgets. You would see "sidewinder" cars where the engine was moved from the rear to the side to help with weight distribution, hand operated clutches (not legal in 1/4 midgets), the occasional 2 cycle engine (the vast majority were 4 cycle) and plenty of other creative stuff. Drivers are a little older as well, 14-18. There was an adult class, but it was almost unheard of to see anyone run it, I doubt they even bother with it anymore. Can't help on 3/4 midgets though, once I turned 16 I changed course and went road racing, so my experience ends at 1/2 midgets.