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Batch of 1970 F5000 pictures to identify

Started by Allen Brown , Apr 24 2005 19:41

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35 replies to this topic

#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 19:41

On the excellent Autosports Marketing Associates CD of Bill Oursler images is this batch of images that appear to have been taken at the same race in 1970. Well - I think it's the same race.

I have identified some of the cars but not the track. Can anyone help? There would have been a separate Formula B race the same day and some of these cars could be FBs.

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Picture 1. ?

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Picture 3. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 6. #37 Kroll Lola T142?

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Picture 7. #87 Brockman Lola T190

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Picture 8. #2 Cannon McLaren M10B

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Picture 9. #18 Follmer Lotus 70

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Picture 11. #2 Cannon McLaren M10B

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Picture 13. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 14. ?

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Picture 15. ?

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Picture 16. ?

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Picture 17. Is that #5 car a McLaren M10B?

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Picture 18. #1 Hobbs Castrol Surtees TS5A

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Picture 19. ?

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Picture 20. ?

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Picture 21. ?

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Picture 22. Is that #42 or #43 leading this group?

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Picture 23. ?

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Picture 24. ?

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Picture 25. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 31. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 34. #72 either Fred Philips or Grable Surtees TS5A

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Picture 35. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 36. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 39. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

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Picture 40. #2 Cannon McLaren M10B

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Picture 41. #18 Follmer Lotus 70

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Picture 42. #39 Gunn Surtees TS5A

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Picture 43. #22 Ramsey Eagle

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Picture 44. #2 Cannon McLaren M10B

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-154.jpg
Picture 154. #1 Hobbs Surtees TS5A

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-157.jpg
Picture 157. #39 Gunn Surtees TS5A

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-158.jpg
Picture 158. #39 Gunn Surtees TS5A

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-164.jpg
Picture 164. #72 either Fred Philips or Grable Surtees TS5A

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-165.jpg
Picture 165. #18 Follmer Lotus 70

http://www.oldracing.../F-5000-169.jpg
Picture 169. Not sure this is even the same place...

All images are Copyright Autosports Marketing Associates and Bill Oursler 2001.

And if you can't help, I hope you still enjoy the pictures!

Allen

#2 rosemeyer

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 19:53

only a guess but the shots with the trees looks a lot like Elkhart Lake 1970

#3 WGD706

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 20:13

The lead car in picture #16 looks like Jacques Couture in a Formula B Lotus (1970 model 59/69 ?)
http://www.race-cars...053478602pp.htm

The last photo (#169) looks like it was taken at Road Atlanta.
Warren

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 20:38

I would have thought most of the cars in pirctures 17-24 are FB cars

#5 Bill Harding

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 20:50

I have always said it would never,never, join in the "trivia dept" but it is compulsive....I think that you will find it is Seattle International Raceway (now Pacific International Raceway) also referred to as Kent Washington. June 1970..............Check out the cover on the Program on Google

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 20:52

They are... Brabhams and Lotus principally... and a little McLaren.

#7 WGD706

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 20:59

Originally posted by Bill Harding
[BI think that you will find it is Seattle International Raceway (now Pacific International Raceway) also referred to as Kent Washington. June 1970..............Check out the cover on the Program on Google [/B]

These photos show David Hobbs as the winner; at Seattle Grand Prix, 07 June 1970, the winner was John Cannon.
http://www.oldracing...asp?RaceID=SE70

At the Minnesota Grand Prix at Brainerd, 16 August 1970, Hobbs won in car #1.
http://www.oldracing...asp?RaceID=MI70

Warren

#8 Gerr

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 21:14

Most of the photos look like Lime Rock, September 7. Inver House Scotch sponsored the race. The start/finish line is in the Inver tartan and there is an INVER House banner. Hobbs won there. Same day there was a FB/C championship race.

#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 22:49

Thanks guys - I agree it must be Lime Rock as that's the only time Philips and Follmer appear in the same race.

The results of the day's FB race ar here. Can anyone identify that pale blue car that is pictured so often (Pics 14, 15, 23 and 24)?

And what about that final picture? Is that Lime Rock? Is it Road Atlanta? And what's the car? It looks very much like Kroll's Lola T142.

Oh yes, and Picture 1?

Thanks

Allen

#10 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 23:16

I've just noticed that Pictures 6, 7 and 8 must be somewhere different as Cannon's McLaren M10B has a lower wing. Did the high wings get banned later on in 1970?

Lime Rock was tenth of 13 races in 1970, the remaining being Mosport 6 days later, Mid-Ohio two weeks after that and finally Sebring on 25 October. Cannon's #2 didn't appear after the end of 1970. So where could those three pictures be?

Allen

#11 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 23:18

Originally posted by Allen Brown

And what about that final picture? Is that Lime Rock? Is it Road Atlanta? And what's the car? It looks very much like Kroll's Lola T142.

Allen,

Dave Heinz used no. 57 on his Corvettes (as you might expect!) so I assume he did on other cars, and it looks like Road Atlanta to me, so the SCCA race in October?

#12 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:09

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I've just noticed that Pictures 6, 7 and 8 must be somewhere different as Cannon's McLaren M10B has a lower wing. Did the high wings get banned later on in 1970?

High wings USA, Low wings Canada. No, the wings did not get banned during the season, so that means those pix of F/A cars with the low wings are from a Canadian round; willing to guess St. Jovite since it rained at Mosport.

The picture at Road Atlanta is from the ARRC -- or whatever it was called that year.

#13 275 GTB-4

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 04:04

Originally posted by WGD706

These photos show David Hobbs as the winner; at Seattle Grand Prix, 07 June 1970, the winner was John Cannon.
http://www.oldracing...asp?RaceID=SE70

At the Minnesota Grand Prix at Brainerd, 16 August 1970, Hobbs won in car #1.
http://www.oldracing...asp?RaceID=MI70

Warren

That must narrow it down ...because Hobbs is clearly a winner parading the Chequred Flag...

#14 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:11

Picture 1 looks to me like Eppie Wietzes

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 08:31

Allen, I'm fairly sure the light blue car you query is a McLaren M4a...

#16 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 08:58

Beg to differ, but isn't that blue car a Crosslé?

#17 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:04

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

High wings USA, Low wings Canada. No, the wings did not get banned during the season, so that means those pix of F/A cars with the low wings are from a Canadian round; willing to guess St. Jovite since it rained at Mosport.

The picture at Road Atlanta is from the ARRC -- or whatever it was called that year.

Thanks Don - I should have know that. These pictures may be from practice (who knows?!) so I can't discount Mosport.

There was also Edmonton earlier in the season but Cannon missed that race and it was too early for Brockman's T190.

Looking at the Autosports site again, I notice that they show other pictures from St Jovite so that must be it.

Allen

#18 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 11:55

As for pix # 1, I'll confirm raceannouncer2003's comment that it is Eppie Weitzes in a McLaren.

Manfred Cubenoggin
aka Biff Shunter @ CMSHG

#19 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 13:37

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
Beg to differ, but isn't that blue car a Crosslé?

It does look a lot like the 18F/19F design, as shown on p13 of the Crossle 30 years book.

Allen

#20 Russell_Sheldon

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 06:46

Allen, I don't wish to be controversial, but this may be of some help:-

http://www.trainings...usf70/usf70.htm

With kind regards,

Russell

#21 Chris Townsend

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 10:17

Allen

I think most - if not all the FBs are taken at Lime Rock
The orange no. 5 car in 21 and 17 is a Brabham BT29, probably Brian Robertson's Opert car.
Lots more B29s in there.
The Green/Yellow Lotus 69 in 16 is either David McConnell or more probably Jacques Couture, since the car chasing is, I think, Mike Eyerley's Chevron B17B which was yellow with two thin black or dark blue stripes up the side.
The middle car of the trio in 17 is, I think, a Chevron B15

#22 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 00:50

Picture 169 is Road Atlanta, turn 5. If a car ever hit that red clay, the stuff stayed in the car for years after. could not get rid of the clay dust.

#23 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 14:26

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Allen

I think most - if not all the FBs are taken at Lime Rock
The orange no. 5 car in 21 and 17 is a Brabham BT29, probably Brian Robertson's Opert car.
Lots more B29s in there.
The Green/Yellow Lotus 69 in 16 is either David McConnell or more probably Jacques Couture, since the car chasing is, I think, Mike Eyerley's Chevron B17B which was yellow with two thin black or dark blue stripes up the side.
The middle car of the trio in 17 is, I think, a Chevron B15

Thanks Chris. Has Bryan mentioned that stuff I sent him? It might help identify the Lotus.

Do you agree the pale blue car is a Crossle?

Allen

#24 Chris Townsend

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 17:01

Allen

I think it might well be Roger Barr's 18F. The other thought that came to me this afternoon is that the yellow 43 car in picture 22 might well be a Tecno, either that of McKitterick or Barber.

Chris

#25 S�amas M.

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 17:05

Originally posted by Allen Brown

Do you agree the pale blue car is a Crossle?

Allen

Definitely Crosslé, most likely 19F. Have a look at http://www.crossle.c...df/30yearsa.pdf

#26 philippe charuest

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 17:27

im pretty sure that the lotus 59-69 (green &yellow ) is jaques couture, in a more close-up shot we could probably see a big Quebec flag on his rear wing. and the yellow car in the pictures 22 is definitly a Tecno

#27 marty8405

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 17:42

This is absolutely Lime Rock except for the last picture. I was there, one of the first races I attended. I'll try to dig out the program and fill in all the blanks.

#28 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 17:58

Thanks everyone!

Originally posted by marty8405
... I'll try to dig out the program and fill in all the blanks.

That would be excellent. Could you scan the FA and FB entry lists for us?

Thanks

Allen

#29 John M Cannon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 21:27

Allen,

Picture #8 is from St Jovite in 1970. So are #'s 6 & 7.

A lot of the high wing stuff is from Lime Rock in 1970. Look at #25-that is definitely the S/F line at Lime Rock and Hobbs did win the 1970 5000 race there.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure pic #43 is the Eagle John Cannon ran in 1969. I remember it being sold to Rex but also had heard it had been written off in pre-season testing. Perhaps the accident was prior to the '71 season.

Hope this is of some help to you.

#30 John M Cannon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 21:55

Another pic from St Jovite.

http://img238.echo.c...2ndplace3vs.png

(Sorry, I'm in a hurry and haven't the time to work out how to upload pics yet...)

#31 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 22:51

Originally posted by John M Cannon
... As an aside, I'm pretty sure pic #43 is the Eagle John Cannon ran in 1969. I remember it being sold to Rex but also had heard it had been written off in pre-season testing. Perhaps the accident was prior to the '71 season ...

Thanks John

You're right. One of the few Eagles I can (almost) fully identify, Cannon's chassis 509 went to Ramsey in 1970 then goes missing for the 1971 season then to Michael Brayton for 1972 until 1975. Mike still owns it.

Allen

#32 Mac Lark

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 22:54

Originally posted by Séamas M.

Definitely Crosslé, most likely 19F. Have a look at http://www.crossle.c...df/30yearsa.pdf

In Ray's defence, I can see why he thought it might be a M4A - big McLarenesque ducts between the front of the cockpit and the nose.

#33 jamesbarr61

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 11:09

Hello,

Pictures 14 and 15 are pictures of my father, Roger Barr. He's driving his favorite car, his Crossle Formula B. He tried those wings for a few races to aid with the lack of grip provided by the "old, dry rotted tires" he was running at the time. He removed the wings before selling that car and his Crossle Formula Ford car a little while after I was born.

Any inputs are definately welcome, and I will relay them to my father

#34 jamesbarr61

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 11:13

Hello,

Another thought on my fathers Crossle (blue #61)...

My father installed those NACA ducts to help with cooling. I've seen pictures of the before and after on that installation and he said they did help. He talked to John Crossle before he did the mod, and apparently the other car had the same mods done a little while after...

Thanks again!

#35 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 17:45

Hi James

Welcome to TNF. I am curious to sort out the different Crosslés that your father raced as he appears in many FB race reports simple in a "Crosslé-Ford". I guess his 1968 car was the 12F but I don't know whether his 1967 car was also the 12F. He then ran the Formula A 15F in 1969 and I know he ran the works FB 18F at Mosport and at Mid-Ohio in September 1970.

This picture is at Lime Rock (7 Sep 1970) so I'm not sure whether this is his original 12F from 1968 or whether it's the 18F that had only just been shipped out to the States so that Brian Nelson could drive it at Sebring (25 October). Nelson won at Sebring of course. It was reported at the time that it arrived early enough for your father to race once or twice before Sebring but could it really have been early enough for Lime Rock? Would your father remember?

Regards

Allen