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Ferguson P99 to run

Started by Macca , May 05 2005 13:34

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44 replies to this topic

#1 Macca

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 13:34

The new issue of C & SC has a report that P99, still owned by the Ferguson family and in the Donington Collection for many years, is undergoing restoration to running order against the clock, in order that SCM can drive it at the FoS.

Now if only they could have Dickie Attwood in BRM P67 as well.................

Has P99 run since Peter Westbury used it in hillclimbs?

Paul M

#2 Stephen W

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 14:10

How about Peter Westbury in the P99 at Shelsley Walsh's Centenary?

Now that would knock spots off Goodwood!

#3 Macca

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 17:02

Yes, that'd be good too..............but if Barry Boor were to build one for his Half-Tonraces, that'd be the icing on the cake!

Posted Image

Paul M

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 21:21

I'm sure Barry would have a problem with that...

I think Jack Fairman is away testing a prototype somewhere, and Stirling, of course, is running the Ferrari.

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 22:29

This is terribly O.T. chaps but you have dragged me in....

Four wheel drive on a slot car is not new. Scalextric did it quite successfully with an Audi and an R.S. 200 years ago. That was achieved with rubber bands and believe me, it worked.

However, with an open wheeler it would be more difficult - solid drive shafts from one axle to the other, as in Macca's diagram, probably being the way to go.

There is one massive drawback.... If the front wheels are driving, then they must be permanently on the track surface. Any bump, which would just flick a floating front axle up in its slot in the body, would inevitably lift the brushes clear of the rail, however briefly, and that would cut the engine causing intermittent running. Maybe there is a way to make the front axle 'float' while still being driven - sponge suspension, perhaps... I may look into it.....

But then, I don't actually have a 32nd scale Ferguson bodyshell at present, nor have I the time to make one. I know they are out there so maybe one day.....

#6 Macca

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:18

Yes Barry, I see your point about contacts and driving front wheels............but why do the words 'twin chassis' keep floating through my consciousness?

If it's treated as an engineering exercise, rather than a pure racing machine, just like the original......... :cool:

Paul M

#7 P4Replica

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 16:47

Originally posted by Barry Boor
This is terribly O.T. chaps but you have dragged me in....

Four wheel drive on a slot car is not new. Scalextric did it quite successfully with an Audi and an R.S. 200 years ago. That was achieved with rubber bands and believe me, it worked.

Definiately not 'new', Barry ....
As far back as 1967, M.R.R.C. (the original company, based in Bournemouth) produced a slot car with 4-wd and steering ! It was based (I think) on the 1964 Indy Novi-Ferguson. 4-wd was achieved by taking drive from both ends of a large (star-wound) 'split-6' 3-pole motor via bevel gears, to the rear, and to an 'Ackerman' steering arrangement at the front end. Here, drive was transmitted to the front wheels using short stub-axles and what is best described as 'star and dog' CV joints.
And it worked too - if you could ever finish building the kit, that was ! The 4-wd version of the model only ever came in kit form. It was also available as a 'R-T-R' in 2-wd with the standard MRRC 3-pole motor. The 4-wd kit was incredibly complex - it also included 6 ball-races, which were held together in a cup and shim washer arrangement, which you had to assemble yourself. Incredibly fiddley ! Unfortunately the main chassis frame was moulded in nylon - and any serious 'shunt' resulted in the chassis flexing and 1mm ball bearings rolling around the track !
MRRC also produced a Felday 4 in the same range (and, incorrectly, a Mercedes W154 GP).
I still have my Indy Novi Ferguson - restored to original mint condition - in white with lots of STP decals - although I believe the original car was actually red.
Does anybody have any photos of the real car ?

Here is a link to the current Jersey-manufactured 'MRRC' Indy Novi-Ferguson (re-release) -
http://www.merchantr...ar.00.news.html
.... and another to the assembly instructions for the original 4-wd version:
http://www.nostalgia..._indi_novi.html

#8 Macca

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 11:36

Originally posted by P4Replica
I still have my Indy Novi Ferguson - restored to original mint condition - in white with lots of STP decals - although I believe the original car was actually red.
Does anybody have any photos of the real car ?

Yes..............both b/w from 1964 (and the 'Autocar' article with cutaways), and my colour shots from the FoS a couple of years ago - I'll put them on Imageshack when I get a chance.

Paul M

#9 Bumblyari

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 17:25

The 4-wd kit was incredibly complex - it also included 6 ball-races, which were held together in a cup and shim washer arrangement, which you had to assemble yourself. Incredibly fiddley !

Did anyone else drop one of the balls, spend a frustrating hour searching for it on the kitchen floor, only to find it stuck to the motor magnet ... or am I the only pillock that does this sort of thing ?

#10 jph

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 20:36

Back to the Ferguson for a moment. The C&SC article says it hasn't run since 1964. I'd have sworn I remeber it running in an historic GP cars demo at Silverstone before the British GP, possibly in '69 or '71.... including whoever was driving it (possibly SCM?) getting all four wheels on to the grass coming out of Woodcote. Anyone else's memory playing the same trick?

#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 21:04

I cetainly recall it running in a Silverstone demo - wearing large BP decals from memory and with Innes Ireland - by that time Sports Editor of 'Autocar' I think - behind the wheel...

DCN

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 22:14

Originally posted by jph
.....I'd have sworn I remeber it running in an historic GP cars demo at Silverstone before the British GP, possibly in '69 or '71.... including... getting all four wheels on to the grass coming out of Woodcote.

Hmmm... now what did Dougy say?

Originally posted by Doug Nye
and with Innes Ireland... behind the wheel...

Sounds about right!

Damned journos... have they got no respect?

#13 dretceterini

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 23:36

Originally posted by Bumblyari

Did anyone else drop one of the balls, spend a frustrating hour searching for it on the kitchen floor, only to find it stuck to the motor magnet ... or am I the only pillock that does this sort of thing ?

You are FAR from the only one who has ever done that kind of stuff when putting together a slot car...

#14 Macca

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 13:03

P4Replica,

my photos - free to all

Paul M

#15 MCS

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 14:34

Only victory for P99 - Stirling Moss, Oulton Park Gold Cup 1961

#16 P4Replica

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 15:39

Thanks for the photos, Paul. Looks like that 'side-saddle' tank was a later addition.
Here's a photo of my MRRC slot car, which I've owned since 1967. I can remember going into my local hobby shop, on the day I bought it, and agonising whether to buy the MRRC Indy-Novi kit, or the (latest release) Scalextric Bugatti Type 35B.
I now know which would have been the better investment. Hindsight is a wonderful thing !

Note for Russell Sheldon ....
O.K., so it's not quite 'mint'.
Don't know if you can make them out from the photo, but there are a couple of minor 'mods':
Rear axle is 3/32" threaded (instead of push-fit)
I have fitted Super Shells 3-eared K/O's to the wheels, and
The tyres are Super Shells soft slicks, rather than MRRC ribbed treads.
Another tweak that you can't see, was my addition of 10 thou shim washers to the outsides of the axle ballraces - which seemed to fix the errant ball bearing problem (in the event of a shunt).
So it may not be quite 100% original, but it's a lot better than it once was - this slot car, at one stage of it's racing career was fitted with 3/8" wide front and 5/8" wide rear YELLOW 'spongies' !
Luckily I seem to have a spare bodyshell (with chrome and a full set of decals) ....
Guess I need to spray it STP 'dayglo' red with #9 to be 'correct' .... even though I prefer it in white !

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 18:16

Originally posted by MCS
Only victory for P99 - Stirling Moss, Oulton Park Gold Cup 1961

Only race victory perhaps. But there were loads of hillclimb wins ;)

#18 MCS

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 19:22

Indeed, David. Exactly my point. :up:

Mark

#19 Barry Boor

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 06:28

Purely for information purposes P4Rep, John Robinson in Jersey has sold the Airfix concession to someone in Germany and has been off-loading literally hundreds of items on Ebay for several months now.

I am unaware of what is going to come out of the German connection.

#20 Macca

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 17:06

Originally posted by Barry Boor
There is one massive drawback.... If the front wheels are driving, then they must be permanently on the track surface. Any bump, which would just flick a floating front axle up in its slot in the body, would inevitably lift the brushes clear of the rail, however briefly, and that would cut the engine causing intermittent running. Maybe there is a way to make the front axle 'float' while still being driven - sponge suspension, perhaps... I may look into it.....

But then, I don't actually have a 32nd scale Ferguson bodyshell at present, nor have I the time to make one. I know they are out there so maybe one day.....

So it would seem that rather than depending on the pin for front-end grip, all four wheels need to be kept on the track - that means even weight distribution and the front wheels mounted on the chassis plate rather than the body. The trick, then, is to stop the pin jumping out over bumps, or the brushes lifting off the track..........hinged section of chassis plate forward of the front axle maybe?

But without differentials, even if the front wheels hop, as long as the current still gets through, all the power will still get to the track.........so maybe flexibly-mounted front axle?

:confused:

Paul M

#21 Macca

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 12:09

Some pictures from the Goodwood paddock:

Thanks to Imageshack

Paul M

#22 Henri Greuter

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 07:57

I think P99 must have been one of the most charismatic and versatile cars ever.
Can you recall any other car in history that was used in F1 racing, Tasman racing, hillclimbs but also ran at Indianapolis, if only for a demo run? And the impact and results that eventually had?

Quite a car, glad to know that it was ran once again.

I regret it wasn't there yet in '98 when P104 came over to Goodwood. Now that would have been a very special moment if P99 and P104 had met another and been at the same grounds.
I saw P104 back in '98 but regrettably I couldn't attend Sundaymorning so I never saw it run since it failed to run properly on Saturday.

So good to know historical P99 being in good shape again.

Henri

#23 Henri Greuter

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 08:10

Originally posted by P4Replica
Thanks for the photos, Paul. Looks like that 'side-saddle' tank was a later addition.

IOf you refer to the saddle tank on the original, genuine car, that's correct.

In fact, the airfix racer resembles the P104 as it was delivered by Ferguson quite well.
But shortly after arrival and the first testhops at Indy in was damaged in a fire and during the rebuilding the car got this saddle tank as well as a dffferent design nose cone and rear end.

henri

#24 Macca

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 15:35

Nice colour shot of NGH in P99 here:

http://www.aussieroa...Hill4WD-600.jpg

Paul M

#25 D-Type

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 15:49

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
I think P99 must have been one of the most charismatic and versatile cars ever.
Can you recall any other car in history that was used in F1 racing, Tasman racing, hillclimbs but also ran at Indianapolis, if only for a demo run? And the impact and results that eventually had?
Cooper T51 - possibly more influential

Quite a car, glad to know that it was ran once again.

I regret it wasn't there yet in '98 when P104 came over to Goodwood. Now that would have been a very special moment if P99 and P104 had met another and been at the same grounds.
Well there's always next year - Doug, are you reading this!
I saw P104 back in '98 but regrettably I couldn't attend Sunday morning so I never saw it run since it failed to run properly on Saturday.

So good to know historical P99 being in good shape again.

Henri

#26 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 16:43

Interesting that in the picture of NGH with the Ferguson, the Rob Walker white hoop seems to have slipped down the nose.

Was the car still entered by RRCW?

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 18:11

It was in NZ, so presumably in Oz too

#28 Paul Ranson

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 21:47

FWIW http://www.shelsley-...05_20050728.htm suggests that Peter Westbury will be demonstrating the Ferguson P99 at the Centenary meeting.

Lots of other cool stuff too, I suggest attending on the Friday general practice day when there should be somewhat less crowding and almost everybody will be running.

Paul

#29 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 17:18

Apropos of nothing.... I have now obtained a beautiful fibreglass 32nd scale shell of the P.99.

Will I now make a car? Mmmmm.... well, given that it has an internal width of only 18-19 mm and the motors I use are 20 mm wide, it may be an insurmountable problem.

Also, it is very shallow and so the motor would intrude into the cockpit area to such a degree that there would be little space for the driver.

I have considered the possibility of vac. forming a shell around the body I purchased, which would obviously be that much bigger.

I have excatly the same problem with my yet to be started Lotus 12s as they were only 2 feet wide - scale size 19 mm. Same problem!

#30 Sharman

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 21:27

The photo at Oulton shows both car and driver looking totally "unfussed". I was at Oulton that day (on the outside of Druids for that race) and I have to say that my impression at the time tallies exactly with the photograph. I seem to remember that part of the daywas wet but it made little difference to the smoothness. Moss always looked composed but cars could look out of shape. The only other driver who appeared to be more relaxed was Jimmy Clark.

#31 D-Type

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 22:10

P99 ran in Walker blue at Aintree, Oulton Park and the "Tasman" races. Did it ever run in BRG? I have a vague memory of seeing a photo of it in green..

#32 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 01:08

This on the Monaco Historique 2006 entry list:

(Car number) 7 (Group) 4 (Pre 61 GP) (Entrant) MOSS Stirling (Driver) MOSS Stirling GB FERGUSON P99 1960

on this website:

http://www.acm.mc/gphm/gphm_main.php

Does SCM own the Ferguson now? Or did I miss something?

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

#33 David Beard

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 20:55

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I have excatly the same problem with my yet to be started Lotus 12s as they were only 2 feet wide - scale size 19 mm. Same problem!

Ah ...that's it! I always wondered why the 16 was fatter!

#34 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 21:48

The Ferguson is still owned by the (heirs to the) Ferguson company, I believe.

#35 tobbe j

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:31

Is ther only one P99?

Is it in Donington Collection or in Ferguson Family Museum?

#36 D-Type

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 11:14

Originally posted by tobbe j
Is there only one P99?

Is it in Donington Collection or in Ferguson Family Museum?

There is only one P99. It appears from googling that it is now in the Ferguson Family Museum on the Isle of Wight, but for all I know it may still be at Donington.

I believe there is also only one P104.

#37 Pedro 917

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 15:57

Some pictures from the FoS 2005 :

#38 macoran

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 19:07

Originally posted by D-Type

I believe there is also only one P104.

P104 ??

#39 Alan Cox

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 21:40

Wasn't the P104 the Ferguson-Novi Indycar of '64?

#40 D-Type

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 21:43

Originally posted by macoran

P104 ??

Well, that's what Henri Greuter called the Novi-engined Indianapolis car in posts 22, 23 etc. If it's incorrect, all I can say is that I took what he said in good faith.

So what is the correct designation of the Indianapolis car then?

#41 macoran

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 21:54

Originally posted by D-Type

Well, that's what Henri Greuter called the Novi-engined Indianapolis car in posts 22, 23 etc.

OK sorry, just couldn't find any reference to that designation in any of the Studebaker Novi Ferguson articles I have.

#42 David McKinney

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:05

The Ferguson P99 failed to sell at RM Auctions in London last week

Highest bid of £410,000 was apparently not enough...

#43 Stephen W

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:42

The Ferguson P99 failed to sell at RM Auctions in London last week

Highest bid of £410,000 was apparently not enough...

Must check the Lottery!

#44 hipperson

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:06

I was at RM........the car's estimate was £475,000-575,000.

Only 13 cars out of 107 did not sell

Gross was a tad under £20 million.

I am not a fan of London but it was a great night out !

This was the big one.............million short of 'hoped for'