Instances of 'doped' drivers in F1?

Hi,
Very Often ( in fact, too often ) we are surprised by news about doping in sports. This seems to affect formula 1 however, I remember having read something about it a long time ago.
In the 70s, Hans Joachin Stuck even said something about doping among drivers and, suddenly, he disappeared from the field. It was said then that even the famous argentinian doctor Rafael Grajales Robles could be involved in the matter but, all settled down and I do not remember having heard anything about doping ever since.
Does anybody know something about doping in formula 1 ?

Grajales was not argentinian but from Panama

Doping in top class racing is very unlikely, but not impossible. Hard to imagine that modern drivers will risk their careers by taking dope.

It also very much depends on what kind of dope you refer to.

Easy to get "high" on any kind of brew or drew.

In the "older days" you probably could have got away with it - the time when health sciences were not so much developed as in recent years.

Personally I believe that very few top racers were on dope. In a high risk business like motor racing or flying one is looking for trouble, unless you have a death wish.

Poor Masten Gregory, amongst others, was blamed for being on dope to "make them fearless". I am still looking for that specific drug. The only stuff I know that make you quite fearless is alcohol...that's when it brings out the lion in you. Alcohol naturally also manifests itself in the shape of an ape and a pig...

Gracias Pablo,

I knew Grajales enjoyed certain notoriety in the 70s. As far as I remember, he, for some time, was Emerson Fittipaldi personal doctor and also worked for some other drivers. I thought he was Argentinian so thankyou for correcting me.

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Doping in top class racing is very unlikely, but not impossible. Hard to imagine that modern drivers will risk their careers by taking dope.

Some modern track athletes, some modern pro-cyclists, some modern footballers etc seem to be happy enough to risk THEIR careers by taking dope. Why should race-drivers be different?

Originally posted by WHITE
Hi,In the 70s, Hans Joachin Stuck even said something about doping among drivers and, suddenly, he disappeared from the field.

Stuck didn't disappear suddenly. He had a fairly desultory F1 career, had a moment of glory in a wet American GP (cannot remember which one, in 1977 when he was at Brabham), but given that he was obliterated by Watson he lost his drive to Lauda and sunk through the field in tail-enders. He then raced at the topmost level in sportscars throughout the 80s. Hardly disappearing.

Fangio had his magic pills in the 50s but they were not illegal at the time (may not be now).

Scott Stoddard nearly fainted in the British GP 1966 through the use of painkillers.

I cannot think performance-enhancing drugs would be a good choice for drivers given side-effects that could manifest themselves at the wheel and long-term health problems that would hit drivers suffering high G forces sooner than other athletes. Evidence is against drugged drivers, no surprising deaths or positive tests. Can never rule it out though.

In the sixties there was a driver using doping. I didnt check the search function, but maybe, maybe someone has brought it up earlier: the Frankenheimer movie 'Grand Prix'?

Originally posted by ensign14

Scott Stoddard nearly fainted in the British GP 1966 through the use of painkillers.

Hmmm. Belongs in another thread.

James Hunt was reputed to have smoked marijuana during his career and I'm sure a number of other drivers from that era did as well.

Someday, someone will write a "tell all" !!

I believe that in Donaldson's book on Hunt, the drug issue is mentioned ?

I thought the thread title suggested we were going to talk about engines running on exotic brews. Can we go that way please? It would be far more instructive.

and I thought this thread was about a motorsport figure getting 12 years last Friday...

Who is Scott Stoddard?

At the 1913 Indy 500 Jules Goux doped with champagne!

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Who is Scott Stoddard?

If you are a motor racing enthusiast and you find you haven't heard of someone....assume he is a footballer ;)

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Who is Scott Stoddard?

A promising F1 driver of the 1960s in the Jim Clark mold whose career was cut short by cruel injuries, and psychologically dominated by his apparently more talented older brother. His greatest rivals were Pete Aron and Nino Barlini, and he was married for a time to Jessica Walters.

Did Achille Varzi ever race directly under the influence of morphine or was his addiction confined to his private life?

Agreed about Stoddard. John Jordan should never have let him race at Brands. I have no idea why he short changed his other drivers so much compared to Stoddard. Why on Earth he got rid of Aron after Monaco, I'll never understand. Furthermore, Bob Turner had more than enough talent and experience to win the Championship.

A bloody bad team manager, IMHO...

Originally posted by ensign14
Stuck didn't disappear suddenly. He had a fairly desultory F1 career, had a moment of glory in a wet American GP (cannot remember which one, in 1977 when he was at Brabham), but given that he was obliterated by Watson he lost his drive to Lauda and sunk through the field in tail-enders. He then raced at the topmost level in sportscars throughout the 80s. Hardly disappearing.

Perhaps Stuck was on dope when he signed (1979) for ATS and not for Williams!;) Hans: "the biggest mistake of my career"

scnr

Lutz

Like Lutz has done above, please stay on topic everyone. I've re-titled the thread to avoid confusion...

A question as a point of clarification: By "Doping" are we talking about chemical substances (drugs) or are we talking about blood doping whereby oxygen is added to the blood to give better endurance?

If it is blood doping, that was mentioned by Patrick Tambay in a 1987 Season review (the name of the annual escapes me).

Thanks?

If by "doping" we mean the introduction into a driver's system of chemicals reputed or demonstrated to improve performance, I've heard of one such instance I'd reckon was likely true. Not in F1, but in a pretty-big series.

I've heard of many other episodes that could only be be expliained by the fabled "Red Mist", a substance acknowledged as potent by participants in this very forum, although I can't remember ever hearing a consistent explanation of how it is supplied or applied, dosage-wise or mode-of-introduction-wise.

--
Frank S

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Andrea de Cesaris once had a dope test and the result confirmed that indeed, he was a dope!

Not my words......

Originally posted by Keir
James Hunt was reputed to have smoked marijuana during his career and I'm sure a number of other drivers from that era did as well.

I recall something about Niki Lauda. I can't check it now, I think he told he smoked marijuana only once at home (so not during a GP event), but it was a bad experience.
Did he tell that in the book he wrote in 1984? And did he told anything about other drivers? I can't remember!

Ciao,
Guido

Drivers are regularly tested these days, as Tomas Enge discovered at the cost of the F3000 title in 2002. I doubt that much doping would go on anyway - sure there are drugs that might help with fitness generally, or alertness for endurance events, but I can't envisage there's anything that would actually make one drive better.

There were of course the rumours about Rene Arnoux's departure from Ferrari - some said it was Bolivian Nose Candy, some said it was the Commendatore's granddaughter, some said it was both.... ;P

Oscar Larrauri once told an argentinian magazine, which asked him whether he knew of doping cases in F-1, "Yes, but it happened some many years ago so it's fruitless to tell now who they were". And he did not mention names...

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Who is Scott Stoddard?

At the 1913 Indy 500 Jules Goux doped with champagne!

Scott Stoddart is a fictional character from the movie Grand Prix. It seems to be a popular conceit here to discuss that film as though it was fact. Other names that crop up regularly are Nino Barlini, Jean-Piere Sarti, Pete Aron, Roger Stoddart, Bob Turner (Graham Hill), Tim Randolph (Feel Heel), and the Jordan-BRM, Yamura, and Manetta-Ferrari teams.

Oddly enough very few people here seems to treat other racing movies in this way. It's just a slightly annoying in-joke!

You'll be telling us next that Autosport, in the days when it was a (more) respected organ, printed a fictional Race of my Life, or that the drivers Delaney and Capua mentioned in it weren't real!




Paul M

Originally posted by Macca
You'll be telling us next that Autosport, in the days when it was a (more) respected organ, printed a fictional Race of my Life, or that the drivers Delaney and Capua mentioned in it weren't real!




Paul M

Oh yes, I've got the Pete Aron RoML somewhere. Sad thing is these days most of the Autosport staff probably couldn't tell the difference.;)

(Sigh, we've got Grand Prix and the demise of Autosport into this thread already - all we need is C*r*s A**n and a rant about how nobody respects history any more and we've got the full set ;))

Originally posted by petefenelon


Oh yes, I've got the Pete Aron RoML somewhere. Sad thing is these days most of the Autosport staff probably couldn't tell the difference.;)

(Sigh, we've got Grand Prix and the demise of Autosport into this thread already - all we need is C*r*s A**n and a rant about how nobody respects history any more and we've got the full set ;))

Well, we all know that Chris Amon was addicted to cigarettes, presumably of the conventional type, but was there ever any evidence of him preferring the exotic type on occasion? Terrible thing to say, I know - no-one has any respect for legendary drivers any more, but sometimes things just need to be said.

That OK, Pete?

Originally posted by ian senior


Well, we all know that Chris Amon was addicted to cigarettes, presumably of the conventional type, but was there ever any evidence of him preferring the exotic type on occasion? Terrible thing to say, I know - no-one has any respect for legendary drivers any more, but sometimes things just need to be said.

That OK, Pete?

Cigarettes? Blimey, you got N*g*l R**b**k in as well!

According to Gerald Donaldson's bio, James Hunt took cocaine as well as marajuana recreationally.

Full set? Of course, no-one has menioned (yet) the 1939 E***p**n C***p***s**p points - when Achille Varzi was absent due to being addicted to morphine.

Now we just need the colour of the Indy Cooper for a full set.



Paul M

Originally posted by Macca

Now we just need the colour of the Indy Cooper for a full set.



Paul M

Red, without a shadow of a doubt, absolutely scarlet in fact.

I might just e-mail Chris on that "maryjane" question !!

Originally posted by Macca
Full set? Of course, no-one has menioned (yet) the 1939 E***p**n C***p***s**p points - when Achille Varzi was absent due to being addicted to morphine.

Now we just need the colour of the Indy Cooper for a full set.

:)

Paul M

We already have the latest on Vic Lee as part of the complete the set but the thread title has been changed, rendering it off topic...

I think there is a degree of complacency amongst motor-sport people about the use of performance enhancing drugs: “other sports, yes, but not ours”. We have seen a similar attitude in other sports until someone gets caught out, then there is a lot of hand-wringing and stable-door slamming.

Given the sort of resources that top motor racing teams, not only in F1 but elsewhere, have been putting into physical training and into diet and nutrition for drivers, it does not seem beyond the realms of possibility that illicit substances have been used. There is a huge amount at stake and the temptation to cheat is strong. We all know of cases of cheating on technical matters, so why would those inclined to cheat stop at a dodgy fuel tank or a hidden piece of software? And back in ‘happier days’, would it be incredible if drivers had used stimulants during races such as Le Mans?

Yes, the FIA test, but so do other sports and it does not seem to stop people. Every recent Olympic Games seems to have seen someone busted. And just how good are the FIA’s tests? Given their general air of incompetence, how much confidence would you place in their testing? And would they be tempted to hush up any positive results to avoid the bad publicity?

I don’t know if any of this has any substance, and I doubt if it would be widespread in any case, but I for one remain sceptical that motor sport can be the only international sport completely free of drug abuse.

Originally posted by Macca

Now we just need the colour of the Indy Cooper for a full set.

Paul M

I can quite categorically say I've never smoked anything the colour of the Indy Cooper.;) Now, fair enough, I've munched on little bits of blotting paper that made me see all sorts of pretty colours, but that wasn't one of them ;)

Off topic under the new thread title but its fair to say that a lot of rallies in what so many now consider the "golden age" were made possible by drugs (in most cases prescribed by friendly doctors?). Certainly when I first became involved as very young service crew in the (5days/1night's sleep) RAC Rallies there were competitors admitting to taking pills. Can't believe the old Liege Rally (no sleep) was free of it. Some also told me they had tried it and found that eventually, as effect wore off, it made them too slow. WW2 bomber crews took much the same stuff with much the same effect? By the time I started competing (5days/2night's sleep RAC's) I believe it had virtually disappeared.
Moss has spoken of taking one of Fangio's pills (and having another tested inconclusively for content) for the 55 Mille Miglia and driving on to Stutgart straight afterwards. Not sure I've ever read what happened when the effect finally wore off?

Originally posted by Garagiste
Drivers are regularly tested these days, as Tomas Enge discovered at the cost of the F3000 title in 2002. I doubt that much doping would go on anyway - sure there are drugs that might help with fitness generally, or alertness for endurance events, but I can't envisage there's anything that would actually make one drive better.

I'd say there is less likelihood of there being widespread drug use in motor sports than in others. The consequences of mis-dosage are considerably greater at speeds above unassisted human efforts allow.

A former friend and associate of Mr. Dan Gurney, and a few of his cohort, obtained use of the Irwindale speedway, a half-mile banked oval east of Los Angeles. I don't know if they used that or a smaller flat oval.

They did a semi-scientific survey of the effects of alcohol on driving performance in their SCCA-legal production cars (MGB, TR4, etc). After setting baseline/practice-induced-improvement lap-time levels they had a 1.5-oz. serving of their favorite libation, then made another few laps, stopped and drank another, more laps, another, more, anther, mre, anthhmrrr...

Results may have been contaminated by high levels of good cheer and enjoyment, but were reported this way: up to two drinks actually improved lap times, beyond that perception of improvement was great, but lap times increased dramatically. The "experiment" was adjourned upon the first car/wall contact (not serious).

So maybe a couple drinks don't make one a faster driver, but they do in this instance have the effect. Some suggestion that booze or another chemical may have such an influence.

--
Frank S

Originally posted by Frank S
Results may have been contaminated by high levels of good cheer and enjoyment, but were reported this way: up to two drinks actually improved lap times, beyond that perception of improvement was great, but lap times increased dramatically. The "experiment" was adjourned upon the first car/wall contact (not serious).

So maybe a couple drinks don't make one a faster driver, but they do in this instance have the effect. Some suggestion that booze or another chemical may have such an influence.

--
Frank S

Since Chris Amon and Nigel Roebuck have already been mentioned ;), Amon once told the journalist that his lunches with Enzo Ferrari used to be pretty well lubricated. One day, Amon realized that the Ingeniere and himself had drunk a full bottle of Lambrusco each. When the driver pointed the fact that he still had to test at the Modena Autodrome that afternoon, his boss's answer was (reportedly) 'Good! You'll go faster this afternoon!'... which he did.

Originally posted by RS2000
Not sure I've ever read what happened when the effect finally wore off?

Impotency?

(After all, did JMF have any kids...)

Originally posted by gdecarli
I recall something about Niki Lauda. I can't check it now, I think he told he smoked marijuana only once at home (so not during a GP event), but it was a bad experience.

While moving my magazines, I found this article on Autosprint 27/1986 (pages 4-7), issued on July 1st 1986.
Niki Lauda wrote in 1986 a book, in Italian the title is All'inferno e ritorno (= to hell and back), but the original title should be Meine Story.
He told that in 1984 at Ibiza he found in his house some marijuana forgotten by a friend of him. He and Marlene had never smoked it before, but they tried it. After 20 minutes his body become heavvier and heavvier and he couldn't move. He was crying to Marlene and he went back with his mind to Nürburgring crash. He recalled every moment after the crash, when he wsa going to hospital. That night he slept very bad, but after that he could really free his mind, that after the crash was still upset, even 8 years later.

(OK, my translation is not OK, but I think you can understand!)

According to the same article, Hans Joachim Stuck doped twice, and in both GP (it doesn't mention what) he had terrible crashes.

Carlos Reutemann, at Argentina Rally 1980, refused to have some pills offered more than once by some italian doctors (he was driving an official Fiat 131).

And "recently" (so maybe in first half of 1986) Jean Paul Junior was arrested in USA because he was selling drugs, but I don't racell any more info, neither who really was him.

Ciao,
Guido

Originally posted by gdecarli

And "recently" (so maybe in first half of 1986) Jean Paul Junior was arrested in USA because he was selling drugs, but I don't racell any more info, neither who really was him.

Ciao,
Guido

Several families associated with US racing dealt in assorted amusing chemicals - the Laniers, the Whittingtons and the Pauls all had substantial businesses in that line, and paid the price... although serious dealers tend not to consume much.

Can you imagine Vic Lee cavorting around with exotic whores in a coke-crazed frenzy? More likely a roll-up, an old copy of Razzle, a dodgy meat pie; he must be the least glamorous major-league drug smuggler ever.

Are you sure John Paul was arrested for drug dealing ? As I remember it, it was for the murder of his wife

Originally posted by Frank Verplanken
Are you sure John Paul was arrested for drug dealing ? As I remember it, it was for the murder of his wife

I'm not sure, I only translated what I found on Autosprint...
As I wrote, I didn't know him.

Ciao,
Guido

John (not Jean) Paul Sr. was initially arrested/convicted/jailed for drug trafficing and attempted murder (of a buyer or fellow dealer, IIRC). He is currently being sought, and has been for quite a few years now, for the unsolved disappearance of his girlfriend (they never married, and she was not John Jr.'s mother).

John Paul Jr. was arrested/convicted/jailed solely as an "accomplice" to his father's drug trafficing.