Current F1 with the old starting number system

Every now and then I think back of the old Formula 1 starting numer system. I must say I really liked that system, because teams would retain ‘their’ numbers for several seasons.

With this old system, Ferrari became famous with the white ‘27’ that appeared on the nose for 15 seasons, from 1981 through 1995. Williams, from which Ferrari inherited their numers, raced the (sometimes red) ‘5’ for 12 seasons: 1982, ’84 through ’92 and then again in ’95 and ’96. Tyrrell topped the list with the numbers 3 and 4, which they carried for 22 years.

The 1995 season was the last season in which the ‘old’ starting number system was used. After that, The FIA assigned the numbers 1 and 2 to the team for which the reigning World Championship drove — usually also the winning Constructor. The numbers 3 and 4 were assigned to the second-highest placed team, 5 and 6 to the third-highest, and so on.

1995
Michael Schumacher won the ’94 title for Benetton, thus winning the team 1/2. Their 19/20 is not re-used in 1995. The 11/12 numbers formerly assigned to Lotus, are not used eiter, as is the sole number 18.

1	2	Benetton

3	4	Tyrrell

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Footwork

11	12	-

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Pacific

18		-

19	20	-

21	22	Forti

23	24	Minardi

25	26	Ligier

27	28	Ferrari

29	30	Sauber

1996
The ’95 World Champion Michael Schumacher switches from Benetton to Ferrari and, ofcourse, takes the numer 1 with him. Benetton would normally have been assigned with 27/28, however, the FIA wanted to re-instate the non-used numbers, like 11/12 and 19/20. Benetton are thus assigned 11/12, while the other teams all move up the order.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	Tyrrell

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Footwork

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Forti

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Ligier

22	23	Sauber

1997
Damon Hill wins the ’96 title and moves from Williams to Arrows. Ferrari are assigned 9/10. Forti quits, while Stewart enters. They inherit 16/17 and other newcomers Lola get 23/24.

1	2	Arrows

3	4	Tyrrell

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Stewart

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Ligier

22	23	Sauber

24	25	Lola

1998
Jacques Villeneuve takes the ’97 championship for Williams, thus trading number with Arrows. Lola never started the 1997 season and the numbers 23/24 dissappear.

1	2	Williams

3	4	Tyrrell

5	6	Arrows

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Stewart

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Ligier

22	23	Sauber

1999
Because Mika Häkkinen wins the ’98 title, his team, McLaren take 1/2, while Williams are assigned 7/8. BAR bought Tyrrell, thus inheriting their 3/4, while Ligier are renamed Prost after having been bought out in 1997.

1	2	McLaren

3	4	BAR

5	6	Arrows

7	8	Williams

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Stewart

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Prost

22	23	Sauber

2000
Mika Häkkinen wins the Championship again and McLaren retain their 1/2. Stewart is bought by Ford and renamed Jaguar, which inherits 16/17.

1	2	McLaren

3	4	BAR

5	6	Arrows

7	8	Williams

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Jaguar

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Prost

22	23	Sauber

2001
Michael Schumacher finally wins the title for Ferrari, thus regaining the 1/2 for the team. McLaren are assigned 9/10.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	BAR

5	6	Arrows

7	8	Williams

9	10	McLaren

11	12	Benetton

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Jaguar

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Prost

22	23	Sauber

2002
Schumacher retains his title for Ferrari and with it the 1/2. Prost goes bust during the off-season, while Toyota joins the freigh: they get Prost’s 20/21. Renault buys Benetton and inherits their 11/12.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	BAR

5	6	Arrows

7	8	Williams

9	10	McLaren

11	12	Renault

14	15	Jordan

16	17	Jaguar

18	19	Minardi

20	21	Toyota

22	23	Sauber

2003
Again in ’02, Schumacher wins the Championship. Arrows goes bust during the ’02 season and thus starts the largest starting number shift since 1996: all teams move up one step: Williams get 5/6, McLaren 7/8, et cetera.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	BAR

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Renault

11	12	Jordan

14	15	Jaguar

16	17	Minardi

18	19	Toyota

20	21	Sauber

2004
Another title for Schumacher and Ferrari in ’03: no numbers are exchanged.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	BAR

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Renault

11	12	Jordan

14	15	Jaguar

16	17	Minardi

18	19	Toyota

20	21	Sauber

2005
A seventh Championship for Schumacher in ‘04. Jaguar is sold by Ford to Red Bull, giving them 14/15.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	BAR

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Renault

11	12	Jordan

14	15	Red Bull

16	17	Minardi

18	19	Toyota

20	21	Sauber

2006
Fernando Alonso picks up the title for Renault in ’05, giving Ferrari 9/10. Sauber is bought by BMW, which inherits 20/21. Jordan is renamed Midland after having been sold in 2004.

1	2	Renault

3	4	BAR

5	6	Williams

7	8	McLaren

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Midland

14	15	Red Bull

16	17	Toro Rosso

18	19	Toyota

20	21	BMW

Numbers mattered when you could actually see them. It seems that the primary recognition mechanism now is (don't laugh) the colour of the on-car camera.

How long until the cars don't even carry numbers? -- I give it 5 years at the outside.

Originally posted by petefenelon
Numbers mattered when you could actually see them. It seems that the primary recognition mechanism now is (don't laugh) the colour of the on-car camera.

How long until the cars don't even carry numbers? -- I give it 5 years at the outside.

And if all else fails the color of the drivers helmet. I remember MS doing his helmet all red to help distinguish himself from Rubens, he found lapping people harder because they thought they were fighting rubens for position.

Originally posted by petefenelon
How long until the cars don't even carry numbers? -- I give it 5 years at the outside.

I think Midland might already have abolished numbers, I cannot see where they have theirs at all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lustigson
[B].

With this old system, Ferrari became famous with the white ‘27’ that appeared on the nose for 15 seasons, from 1981 through 1995.



Detail:

Due to the arrival of Post at Ferrari in 1990 they wore 1 and 2 that year while the `sacred` #27 ....
Oh, let's not step on too many sore toes here...


But I understand what you mean with those `permanent` numbers
But then, as already noted by others, on the current cars you hardly see the number anymore nowadays....
Maybe we're gonna see a spinoff of the the A1 system to identify cars shortly somehow to avoid the loss of valuable sponsorship space on the cars because of the need to fit that damned number...


Henri

Well it has happened already in A1GP - no numbers on the cars there.

Originally posted by petefenelon
Numbers mattered when you could actually see them. It seems that the primary recognition mechanism now is (don't laugh) the colour of the on-car camera.

How long until the cars don't even carry numbers? -- I give it 5 years at the outside.

Ah, my lasting contribution to F1. While directing graphics in Bernie's digital village, I once noticed M Schumacher do his last timed lap in the team spare, which he then parked outside the FIA garage, where he should have parked the car he set his time in. I suggested that when we fitted the on board cameras, we should have green for team leader, orange for team 2 and blue for team spare, which became part of the sporting regs. I'm so proud!!! The FIA could keep tabs on who used what, and my GFX operators could see who was on their screens!!

Whenever the stewards in F1 races are investigating an incident between a car or 2, they label and annouce it on screen by the car numbers.
I dont know if they'll ditch the numbering system cuz its used to identify cars which are enrolled in each race.

Originally posted by Earthling
Whenever the stewards in F1 races are investigating an incident between a car or 2, they label and annouce it on screen by the car numbers.
I dont know if they'll ditch the numbering system cuz its used to identify cars which are enrolled in each race.

Invariable generated by the gfx computers, not the FIA, there are loops every 200m, and "cheat loops" (surely not!!) at chicanes etc which work in conjunction with the positioning maps, but ultimately your right, they have to enter the cars on the entry forms somehow! I convinced the regs actually say the size colour and postion, and no one takes a bit of notice!!

Sorry to bump an old thread, but Autosport just put an article on current F1 with the old starting numbers system in this week's Journal (subscription needed).

I haven't read the entire article just yet, but one thing I don't agree on: Räikkönen would probably not have had #27 in 2007, since he didn't have #5 either. Massa had been at Ferrari longer and thus had #5, and would likely have had #27, too.

Otherwise, enjoy reading.

I think I'm somewhere in the middle between Simmons and your original thought experiment at the start of this thread. I don't think the FIA would have allowed those big gaps that Simmons is maintaining, as we have earlier evidence of teams being moved down to fill these. But your 1996 solutions of 'other teams moving down the order' doesn't fit the previously used pattern either. I think Forti and Minardi would have stayed where they were, with probably only Sauber and Ligier being moved down, according to the then rule of thumb of the least possible number of changes.

Extending the list in my first post to include 2007 through 2009:

2007
Fernando Alonso is again champion for Renault in ’06, but takes the #1 to McLaren. Renault thus gets 7/8. Midland is sold to Spyker.

1	2	McLaren

3	4	Honda

5	6	Williams

7	8	Renault

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Spyker

14	15	Red Bull

16	17	Toro Rosso

18	19	Toyota

20	21	BMW Sauber

22	23	Super Aguri

2008
Räikkönen lifts the title in ’07. Ferrari swaps 9/10 with McLaren. Spyker is sold to Vijay Mallya, who renames the team Force India.

1	2	Ferrari

3	4	Honda

5	6	Williams

7	8	Renault

9	10	McLaren

11	12	Force India

14	15	Red Bull

16	17	Toro Rosso

18	19	Toyota

20	21	BMW Sauber

22	23	Super Aguri

2009
Hamilton is the '08 champion, but only just. Ferrari and McLaren swap numbers again. Super Aguri goes bust during the '08 season.

1	2	McLaren

3	4	Honda

5	6	Williams

7	8	Renault

9	10	Ferrari

11	12	Force India

14	15	Red Bull

16	17	Toro Rosso

18	19	Toyota

20	21	BMW Sauber

If Honda goes/went bust, I presume everyone moves up two?

Adding next season:

2010
Button takes the 2009 championship for Brawn, and moves to McLaren, which keeps 1+2. Brawn, which had inherited 3+4 from Honda (through BAR, née Tyrrell), is bought by Mercedes. Toyota and BMW Sauber quit, and several new teams enter the sport.

1	2 : McLaren
3	4 : Mercedes
5	6 : Williams
7	8 : Renault
9   10 : Ferrari
11  12 : Force India
14  15 : Red Bull
16  17 : Toro Rosso
18  19 : Campos
20  21 : BMW Sauber
22  23 : Manor
24  25 : Team US F1
26  27 : Lotus

I haven't read the entire article just yet, but one thing I don't agree on: Räikkönen would probably not have had #27 in 2007, since he didn't have #5 either. Massa had been at Ferrari longer and thus had #5, and would likely have had #27, too.

That depends I guess. Basically Alesi had #27. When Schumacher came in, he and Berger left. Did Schumi replace Alesi? Then he would have had #27. Since Irvine, Barrichello and Massa raced alonside him, they would have had #28. And Raikkonen #27 later on. All theory but fun to disgress on.

That depends I guess. Basically Alesi had #27. When Schumacher came in, he and Berger left. Did Schumi replace Alesi? Then he would have had #27. Since Irvine, Barrichello and Massa raced alonside him, they would have had #28. And Raikkonen #27 later on. All theory but fun to disgress on.

Since Alesi joined Ferrari alongside Prost, in 1991, he took #28. A year later, Prost was gone, and Alesi got the higher #27, which he held through to 1995.

Then, with both Alesi and Berger leaving after that season, Schumacher, having been signed on by the Sucderia first (in the summer of 1995, IIRC), he would likely get #27, with Irvine #28, were it not for Schumacher's WDC in 1995, handing them #1 and #2 respectively.

For 2000, Barrichello received #28, while Schumacher was still #27. Massa got #28 when Barrichello left for Honda, moved up to #27 when Schumacher left (like Alesi had done), handing Räikkönen the #28 car.

Indeed, all in good fun.

surely Kimik signed as the team leader and would have been #27 with Massa #28 ?

surely Kimik signed as the team leader and would have been #27 with Massa #28 ?

Well, Kimi was #6 in 2007, while Massa had #5, so it's likely they would've had #28 and #27 respectively.

1995
Michael Schumacher won the ’94 title for Benetton, thus winning the team 1/2. Their 19/20 is not re-used in 1995. The 11/12 numbers formerly assigned to Lotus, are not used eiter, as is the sole number 18.

Simtek used 11/12 in 1995 did they not?

Simtek used 11/12 in 1995 did they not?

You're right. Seems like I left them out, since they didn't make it through the first third of the season.

keeping numbers in line with drivers or teams i would never be able to create a correct line up. too much doubles! so here is my personal choice for the numbers i would like to see:

1 2 current team with the reigning wc

3 4 5 6 tyrrell

5 6 20 21 27 28 williams

5 6 7 8 33 mclaren

7 8 brabham

9 10 march

11 12 27 28 ferrari

14 15 37 brm

16 17 shadow

18 19 surtees

24 hesketh

25 26 ligier


this comes to my mind speaking of numbers. first of all of course: the big RED FIVE

and the #8 for dale jr.

Edited by tom58long, 25 November 2009 - 00:34.

They should give numbers according to WDC finishing positions from the previous season. Drivers that didn't compete from the previous year would get higher numbers.

This way you know who were the most competitive drivers from last season. It looked silly when Hamilton raced with 22 in 2008.

For 2010 it would look like this:

McLaren
1 J Button
5 L Hamilton

Red Bull
2 S Vettel
4 M Webber

Williams
3 R Barrichello
N Hulkenberg

Mercedes
7 N Rosberg
-

Ferrari
9 F Alonso
11 F Massa

Manor
10 T Glock
-

Renault
14 R Kubica
-

Toro Rosso
16 S Buemi
24 J Alguesuari

Force India
-
-

Campos
B Senna
-

Lotus
-
-

USF1
-
-

With Sauber's confirmation, the order in which the FIA announced the new teams, and Prodrive's imminent take-over of Renault, the 2010 list would have looked like this, with the old system:

1	2 : McLaren
3	4 : Mercedes (née Brawn)
5	6 : Williams
7	8 : Prodrive (née Renault)
9   10 : Ferrari
11  12 : Force India
14  15 : Red Bull
16  17 : Toro Rosso
18  19 : Lotus
20  21 : Sauber (née BMW)
22  23 : Campos
24  25 : US F1
26  27 : Virgin (née Manor)

I never noticed before, but presumably there is no 13 because of superstition? I'll take a #13 in British Racing Green, please.

At one time they gave #14 to a single car team to keep the pattern for 15-16, 17-18 etc, but didn't do so consistently.

1995
Michael Schumacher won the ’94 title for Benetton, thus winning the team 1/2. Their 19/20 is not re-used in 1995.

Benetton weren't using 19 and 20 anymore in 1994. They were 5 and 6.

I think the story starts when Brabham (7 and 8 in '92) disappears. Mansell wins the title but goes to Indycar; Hill and Prost take 0 and 2. Then McLaren should have inherited 5 and 6, but instead they took 7 (Andretti, Häkkinen) and 8 (Senna). Therefore no car wore numbers 5 and 6 in 1993, which Benetton took in 1994.

I've always thought that McLaren took 7 and 8 because they had been wearing them for quite a while, between 1978 and 1984. I've got no proof of this, though.

Benetton weren't using 19 and 20 anymore in 1994. They were 5 and 6.

True. But 19/20 were there regular numbers beforehand.

Therefore no car wore numbers 5 and 6 in 1993, which Benetton took in 1994.

I hadn't checked that before, but according to Forix, Benetton had 5/6 in 1993, too.

Benetton definitely used 5 and 6 in 1993 and 1994. For confirmation have a look at these photos of Riccardo Patrese in 1993, wearing #6, on TNFer Maldwyn's site:

http://riccardopatre...og/?page_id=372

Benetton weren't using 19 and 20 anymore in 1994. They were 5 and 6.

I think the story starts when Brabham (7 and 8 in '92) disappears. Mansell wins the title but goes to Indycar; Hill and Prost take 0 and 2. Then McLaren should have inherited 5 and 6, but instead they took 7 (Andretti, Häkkinen) and 8 (Senna). Therefore no car wore numbers 5 and 6 in 1993, which Benetton took in 1994.

I've always thought that McLaren took 7 and 8 because they had been wearing them for quite a while, between 1978 and 1984. I've got no proof of this, though.

Yes, and Larrousse had been using 29/30 in 1992, but then took 19/20 when Benetton took 5/6 in 1993. Sauber were a new team and they took 29/30 whilst Jordan took 14/15, which Fondmetal had used in 92. In their first 2 years, Jordan had used 32/33.

1992
1/2 McLaren
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Williams
7/8 Brabham
9/10 Footwork
11/12 Lotus
14/15 Fondmetal
16/17 March
19/20 Benetton
21/22 Dallara
23/24 Minardi
25/26 Ligier
27/28 Ferrari
29/30 Larrousse
32/33 Jordan
34/35 Moda

1993
0/2 Williams
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Benetton
7/8 McLaren
9/10 Footwork
11/12 Lotus
14/15 Jordan
16/17 -
19/20 Larrousse
21/22 Lola
23/24 Minardi
25/26 Ligier
27/28 Ferrari
29/30 Sauber
32/33 -
34/35 -

I'm just really fascinated by numbers.

Edited by robracer, 05 December 2009 - 13:37.