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F5000; when did it eventually finish?

Started by Ted Walker , Aug 03 2005 20:13

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67 replies to this topic

#1 Ted Walker

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 20:13

When did F5000 finish its Domestic Championships around the world ??????? I dont mean races with F5000 Classes contained within other races. I suppose I mean the UK ,USA,AUSTRALIA, NZ, S AFRICA.

#2 philippe charuest

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 20:32

1976 was the last season in north america(scca-casc) ,replace by the 5000cc can-am in 77

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 20:44

New Zealand's last full season of F5000 was 1975/76, though the cars were eligible for the 1976/77 national Gold Star series (together with F/Pacific cars)
The 1981 Australian Gold Star series was for F5000 cars, though whether or not that was the last I'm not sure.
South Africa replaced the class with Atlantic in 1977 (IIRC)

#4 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 20:46

Was the UK 1975? 1976 think it was re-named Group 8 - a sort of Libre series.

#5 Mac Lark

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 22:10

Originally posted by David McKinney
New Zealand's last full season of F5000 was 1975/76, though the cars were eligible for the 1976/77 national Gold Star series (together with F/Pacific cars)
The 1981 Australian Gold Star series was for F5000 cars, though whether or not that was the last I'm not sure.
South Africa replaced the class with Atlantic in 1977 (IIRC)

I have Wolfgang's latest book covering the Australasian love affair with F5000 - but no where near me at the moment.

However I'm sure David is correct regarding Australia.

Yes 1975 for the UK/European championship.

#6 Mac Lark

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 02:02

Ted's post raises a question that i'm not sure is covered in any of Wolfgang's books:

Did Sth Africa ever run any dedicated F5000 races?

Or, was it a case of anytime F5000s appeared in South Africa, there were F1s on the grid at the samr time?

#7 eldougo

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 08:53

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Ted's post raises a question that i'm not sure is covered in any of Wolfgang's books:

Did Sth Africa ever run any dedicated F5000 races?

Or, was it a case of anytime F5000s appeared in South Africa, there were F1s on the grid at the samr time?

I think you nailed it in the last line Mac Lark. :up:

#8 ian senior

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 09:03

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Was the UK 1975? 1976 think it was re-named Group 8 - a sort of Libre series.

Yes, "pure" F5000 had its last gasp in 1975 in the UK. Pity.

#9 Hieronymus

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 09:21

Originally posted by David McKinney

South Africa replaced the class with Atlantic in 1977 (IIRC)

South Africa's F.Atlantic series began in 1976.

F5000 was never big out here.

#10 Falcadore

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 02:57

The Elfin MR9 was probably the last new Formula 5000 built, and perhaps the only purpose built ground effects F5000. Garrie Cooper debuted his new creation, originally scheduled to be driven by Didier Pironi, but when the program ran late and a lack of shakedown miles led Cooper to be concerned over giving the green car to the star driver, Pironi was placed in one of the team's existing MR8s. This was for the 1980 Australian Grand Prix, held quite late in the year, after F1 finished for the season. F5000 continued into 1981, giving Alfie Costanzo the chance to bring the curtain down on F5000 with a succesfully defence of his 1980 crown in the McLaren (IIRC).

The 1981 Australian Grand Prix held a few months later was Formula Pacific (Atlantic) only, and won by a young Brazilian holding a bit of promise called Moreno...

#11 Ted Walker

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 08:00

The ElfinMR9. When was it built and FIRST raced ???????Does anyone have any photos of it.The photo I have seen shows a very strange exhaust system,who built the engine for this car ???

#12 Falcadore

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 08:31

first raced at the 1980 Australian GP as mentioned, built over the course of 1980. Did Garrie Cooper and co develop their own Chevrolet's for the purpose?

#13 Ted Walker

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 09:39

Was the 1980 Australian GP early or late 1980 ???? Is Garrie Cooper still alive ?????

#14 David Shaw

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 10:01

GP was November 16, 1980.

Cooper died in 1982, I think of a major haemorrhage?

#15 Catalina Park

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 10:32

I have just been looking through my photos from the 1980 AGP and the ones of the MR9 in the pits are missing.

Damn ex.
It was a Very good looking car.
Here is a pic from the 1991 Australian Motor Racing Yearbook.

The M26 Mclaren that Alfie run in 1981 was a very interesting beast. Ground effects!
Here is a pic from the 1991 Australian Motor Racing Yearbook.

#16 Catalina Park

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 10:41

Another pic of the Elfin MR9 (from the 1982 Australian Motor Racing Yearbook)

Notice that the side pods are different in this later photo.

#17 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 11:01

One of the Elfin's went to Europe to someone who was with Porsche - which car and who at Porsche?

#18 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 11:53

IIRC, Harm Laargay has one of the big sports cars... ME5? Featured in "Wheels" here in Oz in the last 2 years... he's done quite a bit to it, and bought the car as a bit of a curiosity, and to stand out from the crowd.. I'm sure that Garrie would be chuffed to know that one of his cars has spent time in Porsche's wind tunnel!

As an aside, I believe Garrie died as a result of a torn aorta, at his factory... IIRC again, I believe he had had a preexisting heart condition.

Would that be John Bowe at the wheel of the MR9 in the B&W photo?

#19 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 12:13

Thanks Hank - I thought it was a F5000 - but at least one Elfin got to Europe.

#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 23:46

Not just one...

There's an Elfin 600 or two in England, or there has been. Perhaps even the FVA-engined Hengke Iriawan car, IIRC. And there was a Catalina got there, I think... don't quote me! Definitely there was a Mallala went to South Africa that I also have a vague notion got to England.

A Mallala still races in the USA, I'm told. But when it comes to the ME5, I think that car has one place only (what on earth was it doing in a Porsche wind tunnel anyway?)... that car always belongs wrapped around Niel Allen.

#21 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 10:26

Ray, the story goes that its current owner was looking for something a little different to tinker with at weekends, and race with the historic sporties, and someone tipped him into this "strange Australian car" which was apparently for sale in the States... the trip into the wind tunnel at Weissach was in order to evaluate what he needed to apply himself to improving... he subsequented whacked a good-sized wing on the back of it and redesigned the nose... at the time that the article was going to print, Laargay was having some rear uprights cast for ir, as he had experienced the odd breakage here and there. The thing looks sinister in it black warpaint, and was going to race meetings behind Laargays Cayenne company car.

#22 FLB

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 17:26

A year ago at the Sommet des légendes, an historic race held annually at Mont-Tremblant, there was a Theodore TY02 equipped with a 5l Chevrolet engine. Was the TY02 ever raced in F5000 trim or was it some kind of historic 'special', i.e. a converted F1 chassis with no historical relevance as an F5000?

#23 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 19:20

The TY02 was raced in the 1984 "CanAm" series with a Chevy V8 by Bill Tempero.

See this race (car #3)

#24 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 20:09

Ted asked about domestic championships. The SCCA series in the US declared a champion as late as 1977 and allowed F5000 cars to run alongside ASR until 1985; and the Australian "Arco Graphite" series consisted of five races between Sep 1981 and Mar 1982. I'd say the last F5000 race of any significance was at Adelaide on 2 May 1982.

Allen

(PS Anyone have a picture of the Russell Davidson "March"?)

#25 D-Type

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 20:19

Originally posted by Hank the Deuce
Ray, the story goes that its current owner was looking for something a little different to tinker with at weekends, and race with the historic sporties, and someone tipped him into this "strange Australian car" which was apparently for sale in the States... the trip into the wind tunnel at Weissach was in order to evaluate what he needed to apply himself to improving... he subsequented whacked a good-sized wing on the back of it and redesigned the nose ... at the time that the article was going to print, Laargay was having some rear uprights cast for ir, as he had experienced the odd breakage here and there. The thing looks sinister in it black warpaint, and was going to race meetings behind Laargays Cayenne company car.

Doesn't it rather defeat the object of 'Historic' racing to redesign a car to that extent?

#26 eldougo

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 06:53

Speaking of F5000 found this pic today....Max Stewart at play Oran Park 1973 Elfin MR5 Chassis No5723 the caption says.

#27 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 11:14

Originally posted by D-Type

Doesn't it rather defeat the object of 'Historic' racing to redesign a car to that extent?

Point taken, but I guess if you're doing 190mph in a car originally fettled in nineteen-mumble, you'd want everything you could arrange to go your way... I'll have to troll thru the archive to see exactly what it was that these guys were doing.

#28 eldougo

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 11:20

Hank the Deuce..
Your missing the POINT? it not in original form as it was raced,To your way of thinking if you had a car the felt better with bigger wings you put them on even though it never had them in it's day.( Strange way of thinking)

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 15:28

Originally posted by eldougo
Speaking of F5000 found this pic today....Max Stewart at play Oran Park 1973 Elfin MR5 Chassis No5723 the caption says.

Who's that behind Max there, Doug? Bob Muir? Too late for Ken Goodwin, surely...

I have a better shot of Max at Warwick Farm. On my busted hard drive, naturally... slithering out of the last of the Esses at the Farm. Max could make that car really slither!

#30 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 02:58

Originally posted by eldougo

Hank the Deuce..
Your missing the POINT? it not in original form as it was raced,To your way of thinking if you had a car the felt better with bigger wings you put them on even though it never had them in it's day.( Strange way of thinking)

No, to my way of thinking, the guy's done what he's done, for his reasons, I hypothesised on what thhose reasons may have been. As per my last post, I'm uncertain as to what category it is raced under, but I will find the article when I can, and see if it clarifies matters as to why he'd done what he's done, at least to your satisfaction. I don't believe that it was historic in the truest sense of the concept. IIRC, Laargay was looking for something that he could further develop himself when he went car-hunting, but as I said, I'll have a look for it all and get back to you.

From my perspective, the only historic contrivance with which I've come into contact (apart from a positively ancient Clubman kart, which devoured most of my paltry appentice wages fifteen-odd years ago for a handful of months,) is my 20-year-old Ford Laser work banger, with enough patina to account for two cars... and from your point of view, it more-than-probably shows.

I apologise if you find my opinion offensive or heretic, but part of that is why I'm here... to learn about the good old days from people much more likely to remember them than I... and in your case (like many here), from one who's been there and done that.

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 12:13

I can see reason in taking such a car to a wind tunnel to test the best settings for existing wings (the ME5 actually had a couple of different configurations, and there was some further adjustment available with them)... but using such a facility to determine what other wings will be better is outside the spirit of Historic Racing.

#32 Falcadore

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 21:04

Maybe that's why he wanted something this obscure to run in Germany. Might German scruitineers be able to tell what is and is not a genuine ME5 part?

#33 longford68

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:21

On the topic of the MR9 the picture of John Bowe driving the car at Sandown was due to Garrie felt the car was spooky over the back part of the circuit from memory due to the ground effects.

#34 eldougo

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 10:38

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ray Bell

Who's that behind Max there, Doug? Bob Muir? Too late for Ken Goodwin, surely...

_________________________________________________

That pic was taken in 1973 Ray and from what i can work out the car behind is Brian Cameron in the ex Ken Hastings BrabhamBT36 . Bobby Muir had by that time gone to UK.

#35 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 14:39

His car was red... or at least orange... though it might have been yellow in his earliest outings...

I'll check when I dig out the RCNs of that year.

#36 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 16:13

Originally posted by eldougo

Speaking of F5000 found this pic today....Max Stewart at play Oran Park 1973 Elfin MR5 Chassis No5723 the caption says.

Curious - I can't see a Tasman race or a Gold Star race at Oran Park in 1973.

Stewart had a Lola T330 in 1973 which suggests this picture is from 1972. The Belle Magazine race at Oran Park on 25 Jun 1972 featured Stewart in his usual MR5 and a host of older, smaller cars to choose from. But no Brian Cameron. Rennmax? Elfin? Bowin? Birrana? Devione?

Full results here

Allen

#37 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 06:12

I would be surprised if that’s a BT36, the nose is too symmetrical, but the definition is not good enough to be sure.

I assume that it is from a front cover of an Oily Rag?

#38 eldougo

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:47

Correct Allen it must have been 1972 (not 73 as they stated).And yes Andrew it's from the (Oily Rag).Looking at the Pic with a maginfying glass it looks more like a Rennmax .

#39 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:57

Originally posted by eldougo

Correct Allen it must have been 1972 (not 73 as they stated).And yes Andrew it's from the (Oily Rag).Looking at the Pic with a maginfying glass it looks more like a Rennmax .

Grice had the Rennmax-built Mildren there that day - could it be him?

#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 11:45

That's who it is...

The RCN report, written by some very green race reporter, states that Grice damaged the nose in an early tangle, returned with a replacement nose that still had Max Stewart's number on it, the car having just been sold (or whatever...) by Stewart to Grice. In fact, it looks to me like the wheel's askew on the thing... is it clearer in the pic on the Oily Rag cover?

Needless to say, the results of the race were delayed as they sorted out all the extra laps credited to Max!

By the way, Allen... Don Uebergang was in an Elfin 600B. He's not listed on the grid in that report, nor mentioned in the body, but he filled a place in the F2 section, which was also a round of the ANF2 series.

#41 eldougo

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 12:11

The front and rear left wheels look to have a lot of camber for some reason,must be the camera angle.It could be "wingnut" in the car some time after that he got into Taxi's.

#42 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 12:36

Thanks Ray - I'll update that.

#43 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 13:01

You might also note that Gary Campbell kept on lapping after a stop for ignition trouble and another for wheel weights... though the results don't reflect that at all. I noted that he lapped steadily on till the finish of the race, constantly passing slower cars. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he finished ahead of Uebergang, who was twelve laps down, but then again he might not have done.

Even so, with an eight lap stop with the ignition and a 'quick stop' over the weights, I fail to see that he'd have dropped into the percentage where he couldn't be classified.

#44 Nordic1

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 13:21

Originally posted by Hank the Deuce
Ray, the story goes that its current owner was looking for something a little different to tinker with at weekends, and race with the historic sporties, and someone tipped him into this "strange Australian car" which was apparently for sale in the States... the trip into the wind tunnel at Weissach was in order to evaluate what he needed to apply himself to improving... he subsequented whacked a good-sized wing on the back of it and redesigned the nose... at the time that the article was going to print, Laargay was having some rear uprights cast for ir, as he had experienced the odd breakage here and there. The thing looks sinister in it black warpaint, and was going to race meetings behind Laargays Cayenne company car.

In the late 90's the car looked like this, Harm Lagaay's Elfin ME5

(Photo's from
http://www.ritzsite....rs/McLaren1.htm )

#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 14:20

I recall that the car had a couple of different rear wing setups... but that's nothing like any I ever saw...

If it's running to rules that set down a year, I'll find pics of what it could be like at that point in time.

#46 eldougo

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 11:03

Originally posted by Nordic1

.

That rear wing ? original. :rotfl:

#47 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 12:54

Hmmm... comparing these pics with contemporary ones up to Charlie Occhipinti's time, it seems that the bodywork has been lengthened slightly at the rear as well...

And the rear deck over the engine has been totally reshaped.

#48 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 02:49

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the ME5 originally have a "ducktail"-style rear spoiler? And a wing section between the front "pontoons"? (I'm just going off a sketch I recall from "Motor Racing: the Australian Way"... eldougo, I'm still hunting the Laargay article down... hope the kids haven't eaten it...)

#49 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 03:25

Yes, I think the rear spoiler was at one time split in two. Originally it virtually formed a flap up from nearly the rear extremity of the bodywork... and there was an adjustable aerofoil section between the two front wheelcovers.

At the time Charlie Occhipinti raced it, the rear wing had been lifted just a few inches from the rear deck level... this pic is from 1972. I don't think I have any later pictorial reference on this car... at least not here.

Does anyone know the details of the class in which the car runs? I think it's a travesty that the guy is even trying to get away with these kinds of changes in the car... what are the rules? Surely they require that the car be as it was in the period?

Here's a line drawing, not a good reproduction, but it does show the rudiments...

#50 Mac Lark

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 03:40

Was that line drawing in RCN?

I seem to recall a number of Elfin line drawings appearing in the early 70s.

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F5000; when did it eventually finish?

#1 Ted Walker

#2 philippe charuest

#3 David McKinney

#4 Andrew Kitson

#5 Mac Lark

#6 Mac Lark

#7 eldougo

#8 ian senior

#9 Hieronymus

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#11 Ted Walker

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#15 Catalina Park

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#31 Ray Bell

#32 Falcadore

#33 longford68

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