Looking over some old races from 1997 ~ 1999 and i'm left wondering... considering SGP's upward trend towards the end of 1999, how do you think they would have fared had they not been sold to Ford?
Granted their only win was a bit of a fluke, but a win's a win & I'd rate their win in 1999 as being in the right place at the right time. They seem to have a pretty sensible managment structure in place with JYS at the helm... What of their other engineers aero guys - have any of them gone onto bigger & better things with other teams?
I'm just curious to see if the more informed think they could have been regular GP winners as we head towards this "manufacturer" era...
-swaction
Stewart Grand Prix
Started by
swaction
, Aug 06 2005 11:28
13 replies to this topic
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#2
Hank the Deuce
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 12:02
I once saw it written that a part of Sir Jackie's talent with regard to the way SGP was run, was knowing when to get out...
#3
biercemountain
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 16:11
I recall hearing stories about how "vigorously" JYS had to lobby Ford for their support of his team. I got the impression that had the team continued as independents they would have gotten little or no support from Ford.
As JYS put it, "It got to the point where they wouldn't return my phone calls", or something to that effect.
Regardless of the circumstances, that one win was a real "Cinderella Story" moment in F1 history.
As JYS put it, "It got to the point where they wouldn't return my phone calls", or something to that effect.
Regardless of the circumstances, that one win was a real "Cinderella Story" moment in F1 history.
#4
petefenelon
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 17:28
SGP had gone as far as it could go in an F1 that was increasingly becoming a playground for serious manufacturer involvement. The fact that Ford got it abysmally wrong with the Jaguar rebranding is neither here nor there; the SGP setup was too small to be a top F1 team and it had to change radically to adapt to the 21st centuiry.
The revolving-door technical team there can't've helped either - I've admired Anderson, Jenkins and Hamidy but they're not from the absolute top drawer and they're not really "whole car" guys.
The revolving-door technical team there can't've helped either - I've admired Anderson, Jenkins and Hamidy but they're not from the absolute top drawer and they're not really "whole car" guys.
#5
BRG
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 14:37
Surely the upturn in fortunes since Jaguar became Red Bull indicates that Stewart could have continued to compete as a credible midfielder? With sound management and cost controls both as Stewart and as Red Bull, it has worked wonders with comparatively little. Maybe Ford would have turned their back on Stewart but there could have been other options for a soundly-run team with a win to its name.
At the time it was doing better than BAR, Sauber or Bennetton/Renault, let alone Jordan & Minardi. And JYS is an astute chap who knows everybody. I doubt if he would have let the team perform as badly as it did as Jaguar. Whether he had the will to carry on is another question of course, but we have seen up and coming team managers like Horner & Carlin looking around for a way into F1, let alone setups like Prodrive. There could well have been someone interested in taking over either fully or in partnership.
At the time it was doing better than BAR, Sauber or Bennetton/Renault, let alone Jordan & Minardi. And JYS is an astute chap who knows everybody. I doubt if he would have let the team perform as badly as it did as Jaguar. Whether he had the will to carry on is another question of course, but we have seen up and coming team managers like Horner & Carlin looking around for a way into F1, let alone setups like Prodrive. There could well have been someone interested in taking over either fully or in partnership.
#6
ian senior
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 14:43
Originally posted by petefenelon
SGP had gone as far as it could go in an F1 that was increasingly becoming a playground for serious manufacturer involvement. The fact that Ford got it abysmally wrong with the Jaguar rebranding is neither here nor there; the SGP setup was too small to be a top F1 team and it had to change radically to adapt to the 21st centuiry.
The revolving-door technical team there can't've helped either - I've admired Anderson, Jenkins and Hamidy but they're not from the absolute top drawer and they're not really "whole car" guys.
Not just the technical side, but the management too. How many "team principals" or whatever you call them did they go through? Some of which were definitely in the "wrong place wrong time " category (why do I keep thinking of Dr John whenever I hear that phrase?).
It was most unlike Ford to screw up in this way. It's more like the kind of pig's ear that GM would have made of it, in the same way (in road car terms) as they didn't know what to do with Lotus when they owned them, and as they now seem to be screwing up Saab.
#7
kos
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 14:54
I think that much of the SGP/Jaguar downfall was because of Paul Stewart's illness and also because of Neil Reissler resignment later. Without this two events Jaguar could've done much better.
Paul was responsible for all day-to-day operations of the team and without him team quickly lost its direction. Also, despite the fact that Jackie remained as an advisor to the team after the sale, his involvement was greatly reduced.
Paul was responsible for all day-to-day operations of the team and without him team quickly lost its direction. Also, despite the fact that Jackie remained as an advisor to the team after the sale, his involvement was greatly reduced.
#8
petefenelon
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 14:59
Originally posted by ian senior
Not just the technical side, but the management too. How many "team principals" or whatever you call them did they go through? Some of which were definitely in the "wrong place wrong time " category (why do I keep thinking of Dr John whenever I hear that phrase?).
It was most unlike Ford to screw up in this way. It's more like the kind of pig's ear that GM would have made of it, in the same way (in road car terms) as they didn't know what to do with Lotus when they owned them, and as they now seem to be screwing up Saab.
I agree with you about the revolving-door on the team principals, but that was after SGP had gone... I think the men involved were (in no particular order) Rahal, Ressler, Reitzle, Lauda, and the Purnell/Pitchforth combo - were any more involved?
It seemed like anyone at Ford who listed "motorsports" as an interest on their CV had a crack at it, and probably a few others who didn't.;)
#9
ian senior
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 15:07
Yes. of course I meant after the team was re-branded as Jaguar. I remember being on the Jaguar stand at the 2004 Brum Motor Show, where they played a constant video backdrop about the F1 team. I heard a bloke saying to one of the Jag boys on the stand "I'm surprised you're showing this stuff" and the Jag man said " I wish we weren't".
#10
Ivan
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 16:18
I love the fact that in their short career as a team. They covered every podium position.
#11
Garagiste
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 16:41
I remember having my heart in my mouth when MS slid off the road in Monaco in 97 - really thought that RB was going to deliver a win for Stewart in their first year. As usual MS kept it out of the wall. :
The other abiding memory following Herbert's win was Frank Williams honouring his bet and wearing a pair of Jackie's - err - fetching tartan troosers.
The other abiding memory following Herbert's win was Frank Williams honouring his bet and wearing a pair of Jackie's - err - fetching tartan troosers.
#12
Don Speekingleesh
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 20:45
Originally posted by BRG
At the time it was doing better than BAR, Sauber or Bennetton/Renault, let alone Jordan & Minardi.
Who came third in the constructor's championship in '99, and won two races to SGP's one?
#13
Falcadore
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 21:11
Like Ferrari of 1980, Jordan in the early 2000's illustrates just how quickly a team can fall. BAR are now successfully struggling against the same kind of fall.
#14
Ivan
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 04:23
Not to highjack this thread Falcadore,
But I don't think the jury is out yet on BAR. Remember it took David Richards to pull them out of the fire that JV and his manager put them in. Now they are trying to clean up the mess that happened this year. I think they may turn it around with or without Button but they needed him to sit tight and be there next year.
End of Highjack!
But I don't think the jury is out yet on BAR. Remember it took David Richards to pull them out of the fire that JV and his manager put them in. Now they are trying to clean up the mess that happened this year. I think they may turn it around with or without Button but they needed him to sit tight and be there next year.
End of Highjack!
