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Track gradients - Spa, Turkey and hyperbole

Started by Darren Galpin , Aug 19 2005 07:50

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31 replies to this topic

#1 Darren Galpin

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 07:50

I was reading an article on the new Istanbul track in Autosport, when the following comment by Jim Holder raised my ire: ".....that includes an attention grabbing one-in-twelve-drop....".

I did a double take on this. One in twelve is attention grabbing???? Perhaps for some city bound person who takes a taxi at the merest site of a kerb. Out came my calculator, I dug out of the depths of my memory that opposite over adjacent gives the sine of the angle, and calculated that 1 in 12 is 4.78 degrees. Big wow.

Which got me wondering - what is the gradient of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, or Radillon at Spa? What are the real attention grabbing gradients out there, or were out there?

#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:05

Oh... it's vaguely possible that Bathurst offers some slight increases on that...

I seem to recall that the steepest part of Bathurst is the climb immediately out of the Cutting. 1 in 8? The downhills aren't quite that steep, but The Dipper would approach it, much of the Esses and the approach to Forrest's Elbow would too.

A new circuit being built at Kilcoy in Queensland has a steep uphill twinge out of a sharp corner. But that's not what you're asking about, it is? Well, it would be when they run races in the opposite direction, which they plan to do!

#3 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:50

Whoever looks it up an post and answer, please include Eau Rouge.

:cool:

#4 2F-001

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:23

Strictly speaking, Eau Rouge is not-far-off flat, since it is the left-flick-towards-aright at the bottom of the drop from 'La Source'.
As Darren points out, Radillon is the 'eye-popping' bit because you happen upon it so suddenly, especially from the driver's seat, of if you emerge from the little pedestrian tunnel under the track there and look up...

Gradients can be deceptive, though, some being barely evident from inside a car, but very evident on foot. At Spa again, if you look across the valley from inside the track near Pouhon, the climb from ('new') Stavelot to thr Bus-Stop is quite surprising. (The book. 'World Motor Racing Circuits' by Higham and Jones indicates it to be steeper than the Kemmel straight, which can't be right -- but there are so many mistakes in that book that I seldom do more than look at the pictures in it now!).

I'll try to dig out some figures for sections of the Nordscheife... the most striking gradients there would include the climb out of Ex-Muhle and the section from Steilstrecke-Curve to Hohe-Acht (but I don't imagine - off the top of my head - the average gradient for that bit is much more than 1-in-10.)

#5 2F-001

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:39

A few other memorably-steep bits that might might warrant measurement could be,
The drop out of Eschbach (at the 'Ring); the drop from Gooseneck to Mansfield at Cadwell Park - and possibly the Mountain there too.
Ledenon (a much-unerrated track) has some fairly alarming slopes too, but I don't have a sufficiently detailed map of that.

#6 roger_valentine

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 10:57

There's a gradient map of Spa in Delsaux's book (the 1922-47 one) which shows the section from km1 to km2 rising by 45 mtrs, which I make a modest 4.5% or 1 in 22 (this does not tally with my experience of cycling up it!). The section from km12 to km13 (by Blanchimont) is steeper, rising 51 mtrs. Would someone care to check my maths, as these figures make Spa seem very flat!

It occurs to me that the GPL track builders should know all about this sort of thing, and must have the exact figures to hand.

Can we include the banking at Brooklands (and elsewhere?) or actual hillclimbs? I have seen the Brooklands test hill quoted frequently as 1 in 4 and occasionally at 1 in 3 (which would defeat just about every car I have ever owned!)

#7 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 11:29

There was a similar thread about this a while ago:

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=69012

The Eau Rouge/Raidillon incline is 19% I believe. Fuchsröhre is 17% downhill.

Interesting map of Spa:

http://www.spa-franc...005-circuit.jpg

Of the modern F1 circuits, Spa is obviously the one with the biggest elevation changes. Total altitude difference is 104 metres. Nürburgring has 56, Suzuka 40, Bahrain 18, Shanghai 7. Laguna Seca has 55 metres.

#8 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 11:34

Oh, and the website of the new Istanbul circuit mentions the steepest slope is 8,145%, which of course is nothing compared to a proper bend like Eau Rouge/Raidillion. The Nürburgring GP circuit's steepest slope is 8,8%, to put this into perspective.

For now I can't really understand what the fuzz is about, but I'll keep an open mind.

"This is absolutely going to be the best track " - Bernie Eccelstone....

#9 Terry Walker

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:00

Roger - I walked up the test hill at Brooklands a couple of years ago. It has two slopes, getting sharply steeper about halfway up. I think it's both 1 in 4 and 1 in 3, but I can't remember for sure. It's seriously steep, though, even on foot. (Not as steep as the nearby banking where you need hands and feet to reach the top.)

#10 SEdward

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:16

I remember reading somewhere or other that the rise at Ex-Mühle on the Nürburgring is in fact steeper than the Raidillon.

More from the useless information department. In French "raid" can mean steep or stiff. "Une côte raide" is a steep hill. So "Raidillon" means a short, steep hill, which pretty well sums up the rise after Eau Rouge.

And do you want to know why "Eau Rouge" is called "Eau Rouge"? But that's a different story...

Edward

#11 Lec CRP1

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:24

Originally posted by SEdward And do you want to know why "Eau Rouge" is called "Eau Rouge"? But that's a different story...

I used to think it because a lot of 'red water' had been spilled there over the years, but I remember reading it was something to do with a stream/spring and iron deposits in the earth and rocks.

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:48

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
.....Of the modern F1 circuits, Spa is obviously the one with the biggest elevation changes. Total altitude difference is 104 metres. Nürburgring has 56, Suzuka 40, Bahrain 18, Shanghai 7. Laguna Seca has 55 metres.

Bathurst has about 200 metres...

#13 SEdward

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 13:05

There used to be a tannery just upstream on the brook that runs beneath the Eau Rouge corner. When the animal hides were washed in the tannery, the water turned red. Hence "Eau rouge".

Et voilà.

Edward
By the way, I love this kind of rubbish, so if anyone can explain the whys are wherefores of the names of corners or straights, then I'm a happy taker. And we all know how "Knicker Brook" got its name..

#14 LB

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 13:50

We do? I've always been curious about knickerbrook...

Has anyone checked Monaco? The climb up from Ste Devote is a lot steeper than it looks on TV. Then theres the drop from the Mirabeau to Portier.

#15 2F-001

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 14:18

Back to Spa, briefly:
Yes, the tannery story seems to be held as the proper origin; but it's easy to understand the iron-in-the-water theory - if you go through the vehicle tunnel under that section of track any time after significant rain (not rare!) the water in there (which seems to rise from the underground stream as much as run in down the slope - or maybe the drains are not good!) is quite red.

Some maps show the course of the stream across the track centre as "L'eau rouge" (which was, I think, the proper name for the track section) - so presumably that name post-dates the heyday of a tannery.

#16 JSF

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 15:11

the Nurburgring has a 300 metre variation in height, with it's lowest point of Breidscheid at 320 meters and it's highest point at the old start/finish of T13 (Hohe Acht is almost as high) at 620 metres. Kesselchen is probably the most deceptive section as it apears relatively flat, but is in fact a very steep rise of 16% in places.

#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 20:48

Originally posted by soubriquet
I'd like to see the Australian GP held there. Could be quite an interesting race.

Yeah...

Last time it was almost won by a Special powered by a Chev V8.

Bathurst hosted the Australian Grand Prix:

1938... when it was still gravel
1947... our first GP after WW2
1952... our first GP won by a post-war factory race car
1958... the last time the AGP was fought out solely by front-engined cars.

#18 D-Type

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 20:55

How does Brands hatch compare? It's quite steep out on the long circuit.

#19 oldtimer

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:57

Originally posted by 2F-001
Back to Spa, briefly:
Yes, the tannery story seems to be held as the proper origin; but it's easy to understand the iron-in-the-water theory - if you go through the vehicle tunnel under that section of track any time after significant rain (not rare!) the water in there (which seems to rise from the underground stream as much as run in down the slope - or maybe the drains are not good!) is quite red.

Some maps show the course of the stream across the track centre as "L'eau rouge" (which was, I think, the proper name for the track section) - so presumably that name post-dates the heyday of a tannery.

On my one and only visit to Spa for the 1992 GP (and a most memorable visit it was), I noticed that exposed soil in the vicinity of the long-lived grandstand on the run from La Source to Eau Rouge was quite reddish in colour.

Certainly, the gradient down the hill to Eau Rouge looked quite steep to the eye, as it does in those photos taken when the start was on that slope (something else the current driver does not have to face). Look at the old poster boards on the exit of La Source.

BTW, why was the exit of La Source widened so much? Presumably to deal with some deficiency or difficulty. And we mustn't have those, must we?

#20 Barry Lake

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 06:45

Originally posted by SEdward

By the way, I love this kind of rubbish, so if anyone can explain the whys are wherefores of the names of corners or straights...

"Turn 1" is the first corner after leaving the start/finish line; "Turn 2"...

#21 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 14:49

What about the mountain at Cadwell Park? The best circuit in the UK.
It has everything, every type of corner, gradient changes and two longish straights all within a lap of under 2.5 miles.

#22 paulhooft

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 16:35

As almost all of the West of Netherlands is as flat as a ....;
The Hunserug at the ones upon a time famous circuit in Zandvoort may be the highest hill in the region??
:clap:

Paul Hooft

#23 BRG

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 10:38

Originally posted by D-Type
How does Brands hatch compare? It's quite steep out on the long circuit.

It's steeper on the Indy circuit, surely? The drop down Paddock Hill Bend is pretty severe and the run up the other side to Druids is equally hard - there is quite a compression at the bottom in in Deer's Leap.

I think it is unfair to compare Raidillon, which is a climb, with the drop at Istanbul. Apples and oranges. Now if they ran Spa anti-clockwise it would be a pretty interesting section. With the advantage of the downhill run down the Kemmel Straight, you would absolutely flat-out when you reached the blind brow at the top of Raidillon. Hmm, maybe I will let someone else try that one out first.

#24 Gary Davies

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:00

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Oh...The downhills aren't quite that steep, but The Dipper would approach it ...

I hope someone can quantify the various gradients at Bathurst. Many years ago, I ran around the track and a major effort it was too. I recall that at the Dipper, it was all I could do to avoid running out of control and falling over. I would attest that, for a few metres at least, it is very steep indeed.

#25 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:06

Originally posted by BRG
Now if they ran Spa anti-clockwise it would be a pretty interesting section. With the advantage of the downhill run down the Kemmel Straight, you would absolutely flat-out when you reached the blind brow at the top of Raidillon. Hmm, maybe I will let someone else try that one out first.

Funny that you mentioned this. A few days back, the Toyota team held a test session at Spa, and they also ran the circuit backwards (or at least the Eau Rouge bit), though not at full speed.

See here: http://media.putfile.com/toyota62

#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:41

Originally posted by Vanwall
I hope someone can quantify the various gradients at Bathurst. Many years ago, I ran around the track and a major effort it was too. I recall that at the Dipper, it was all I could do to avoid running out of control and falling over. I would attest that, for a few metres at least, it is very steep indeed.

I have an idea that in old programmes there were some references to the grades at certain places... it's my recollection of this that prompted my earlier figure about the climb from the Cutting...

But the issue with The Dipper is not so clearcut. It's a tight corner as well as being a serious drop, so the inside of the corner is much steeper than the outside. Cars literally drop through there, it's that steep.

#27 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 12:06

Slightly OT, but with most modern "autodromes" being deviod of gradiants it reminds me that a long held complaint about British airfield circuits was just that ... lack of gradient!

I venture that in fact there is now one airfield track at least that's more 'up and down' than most of these 'exciting' new circuits.

Castle Combe.

The hill up to Quarry is very obvious , especially once you go over the crest while trying to brake and turn at the same time. While the other climb up from Tower is equally steep by the 'exciting' new standards of Turkey...

Simon Lewis
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www.simonlewis.com

#28 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 15:37

Some years ago when I was younger and fitter, I entered a charity One hour cycle ride around Brands Hatch's Indy circuit. Paddock Bend was like stepping off the end of the World and the climb to Druids was like hitting a wall. Not technical, I grant you but you get my drift. :eek:

#29 maczippy

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 16:47

One from the archives..

An "out take" from last year..(sigh - anyone want to send Beanoid and I back there...)

I think the reference points of the spectator stands vs where I'm standing and the view up through towards Kemmel gives a good idea of how steep Eu Rouge is...

Posted Image

Don't forget the gradient at Sears Point after turn one has about the same gradient as Eau Rouge, just not as long and it crests whereas with Spa the track keeps climbing all the way up until Coombes..

Andrew

#30 maczippy

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 16:52

Oh, and the corkscrew section is a 1 in 3 gradient...

Andrew

#31 LittleChris

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 00:40

How about the hill up from the Petit Pont at Clermont Ferrand ? Also the start of the new section at the same track which seems to go very steeply uphill judged from my vantage point hanging precariously off the chain linked circuit perimeter fence last week !