'Racing' illnesses?

Hi dears,

I confess I did not know which forum to start this thread in. If I am starting it in TNF is only because I feel more confortable here.

Hunt, Brambilla, Hulme, Rocchi and Postlethwaite, were all good examples of people fully involved in formula 1. Apart from their atachment to racing, they also had something else in common: They all suffered from heart attacks.
I know that there are certain activities that lead one to suffering specific illnesses, or increase the probabilities of suffering from their effects . I wonder whether any relation could be established between a given cause of death and racing. Perhaps other illnesses are more common among people involved in racing, I do not know. Perhaps our dear members with medical knowledge could confirm whether it would be possible to talk about a "racing illness".

Alcoholism? Serial fraud? Misrepresentation? Drug smuggling? And this is merely scratching the surface...

DCN

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Alcoholism? Serial fraud? Misrepresentation? Drug smuggling? And this is merely scratching the surface...

DCN

Perhaps, hyper-inflated ego too.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Alcoholism? Serial fraud? Misrepresentation? Drug smuggling? And this is merely scratching the surface...

DCN

...and that's just 1980s team owners... ;P

Originally posted by WHITE
talk about a "racing illness".

IT WOULD BUT YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP - A LOT OF US ARE A BIT DEAF. ;P

I think that the causes of James Hunt's death are pretty obvious. I don't know if the same applies to the other people you mention.

His life style was not especially healthy, but it must have been great fun...

Edward

What about Mika Salo's claim about having carbon brake dust in his lungs discovered in a recent operation he had?

He did talk to the FIA about it and I haven't heard more about it.

Does this count in the thread?

Wasn't Nuvolari's death put down to lungs/heart damaged by prolonged inhalation of gas/fumes/dust/ exhaust chemicals related to the dope mixture type fuel used during his driving career ?

Miko Sala recently had a chest operation and to their horror sugeons found large quantities of black carbon fibre brake dust in his lungs.

There are no catalysts on F1 cars unlike many formulae devised over the last decade and a half and the cars do 4 mpg a great deal of unburnt fuel and toxic chemicals are blown directly in to following drivers faces. It's not at all uncommon to see clouds of black brake dust go up from just one car breaking for a slow corner.

If the FIA truly had an eye to safety they would by now have addressed both these issues with rule changes . It's actually a very serious matter.

Nasa say prolonged sustained exposure to more that 1.5 G causes brain damage , today's GP drivers have 4 G then -4G as they go through corners and 'spikes' of 8 G through chicanes , in Button's Monaco accident at the point of impact recorded 48G.

In Moss' day they never exceeded 1.5 G . The brain which is a substance with the consistancy of a jelly is damaged every time it strikes the inside of the scull this is cumulative and causes Parkinsons, dementure, and Altzhimers related conditions. Look at Mohammed Ali. Like everything else doesn't effect everyone in the same way and usually revealed decades after the event !

Also in Moss' day the faces of Vanwall drivers gave every indication of a serious health risk from brake dust.

Sudden decelleration and VERY excessive heat are among the most serious racing illnesses - often terminal, in fact. And then there's the infamous 'Lola Limp'...

Seriously though, I recall reading somewhere that for instance Richard Petty's lungs were seriously damaged by fumes from racing, and that long-term exposure to methanol fumes is also dangerous.

I also seem to recall reading somewhere that prolonged high heart beat rates and high adrenalin levels are detrimental to the heart and kindneys.

Originally posted by Bonde
Sudden decelleration and VERY excessive heat are among the most serious racing illnesses - often terminal, in fact. And then there's the infamous 'Lola Limp'...

Seriously though, I recall reading somewhere that for instance Richard Petty's lungs were seriously damaged by fumes from racing, and that long-term exposure to methanol fumes is also dangerous.

I also seem to recall reading somewhere that prolonged high heart beat rates and high adrenalin levels are detrimental to the heart and kindneys.

As Rick Mears once said: "The speed isn't a problem, it's the stopping that can sometimes be a problem."

Anders, you bring up a very good point. I haven't heard specifically about Richard Petty's lung situation, but prolonged exposure to high carbon monoxide levels among NASCAR drivers has long been a problem and it's effects are just beginning to be noticed. Rick Mast was forced to retire because of it, and considering, one wonders what kind of effects others will suffer from. Richard Petty was often seen breathing deeply from an oxygen mask following a race - and that was when he was a much younger man.

It can't be good.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Richard Petty was often seen breathing deeply from an oxygen mask following a race - and that was when he was a much younger man.

I can confirm seeing him semi-collapsed and taking oxygen after the finish at Martinsville in April 79.

A specific "racing illness" ? well not really.

Professional racing drivers are prone to the same accidents and illnesses that befall their equals in more mundane occupational and leisure pursuits. Fractures, burns, deafness, heart attacks, respiratory disease, cancers, alcoholism, sexually transmitted disease etc etc, they're all there.

James Hunt's death (in particular) was a dreadful example of how heavy smoking and a colourful lifestyle can catch up with you even after a certain degree of reformation. I guess racing drivers may be more prone to certain self-inflicted illnesses but to put it into perspective the contents of an e-mail that arrived with me a few days ago :

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, glass of wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride !!"

It would be wonderful if the dangers of carbon fibre brake dust (Salo's experience above...) led to the reintroduction of cast iron discs...

Asbestosis is a funny disease. Some people work with asbestos for a short time and get it, some work with it all their lives and don't. Did any of the '50s drivers die of asbestosis?

Other drivers who died young of heart attacks were Brian Muir and Lex Davison.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman




........ prolonged exposure to high carbon monoxide levels among NASCAR drivers has long been a problem and it's effects are just beginning to be noticed. Rick Mast was forced to retire because of it, and considering, one wonders what kind of effects others will suffer from. Richard Petty was often seen breathing deeply from an oxygen mask following a race - and that was when he was a much younger man.

It can't be good.

Mandatory exhaust calalysts (as are present now in many catagories ) on all forms of racing cars would eliminate carbon monoxide which is poisonous and most of the other toxic chemical emissions. A current road car (petrol) now has an extreemely clean exhaust , just carbon dioxide (harmless to health ) Nitrogen and water vapour the other elements being present now in only tenths of one percent, this would be a long overdue reform - be safer for pitcrew, officials, and spectators as well. Diesel exhaust is still hugely dangerous causing asthma and cancer .
Iron discs and asbestos free pads would be a great deal safer too .

Quote -carbon dioxide -harmless to health .


Indeed it is -short term ! If we ignore global warming etc.
The ONLY downside to catalytic converters being the emission of sulpher dioxide and the higher fuel consumption plus their 20% minimum emission of the now worrying CO2.

Back to the thread though , a major cause of incapacity for mechanics in the '50s was total exhaustion !

Originally posted by llmaurice
Indeed it is -short term ! If we ignore global warming etc.

I don't want to steal the thread, but while greenhouse gases (like CO2) can be worrying, we also have to remember that solar activity has risen systematically through the past 100 years.

This is suggested by several scientists as the main reason for the global warming seen over the last 100 years...don't blame just the cars

Anyway the supply of fossil fuels will eventually dry up, and we will be forced to turn to renewable (CO2 neutral) energy sources. So if there is a problem with CO2 emissions, it will solve it self.

It was rumoured that any number of drivers suffered from testicular gigantism.... doubt that there would be photographic evidence to support that though....

Originally posted by RTH

Nasa say prolonged sustained exposure to more that 1.5 G causes brain damage , today's GP drivers have 4 G then -4G as they go through corners and 'spikes' of 8 G through chicanes , in Button's Monaco accident at the point of impact recorded 48G.

In Moss' day they never exceeded 1.5 G . The brain which is a substance with the consistancy of a jelly is damaged every time it strikes the inside of the scull this is cumulative and causes Parkinsons, dementure, and Altzhimers related conditions. Look at Mohammed Ali. Like everything else doesn't effect everyone in the same way and usually revealed decades after the event !

Actually,

According to my neurosurgeon (had brain aneurysm in 1997, repaired by surgically installed titanium clip, by the same neuro team at Indianapolis Methodist Hospital who treats most of the head injuries suffered by race drivers, the human brain is anything but "jelly", but rather it is more like the firmness of soft foam rubber.

As for whatever NASA report that is, I suspect it's been discredited by now--after all, military fighter pilots routinely encounter higher G's than 1.5 in training and combat, and there are a fair number of those guys who've been doing it for years. Contrary to popular opinion, the human brain does not simply rattle around loose inside the skull--it's actually a fairly snug fit, and is surrounded by a bit of fluid. It's when the brain is subjected to sudden deceleration against the skull, such as in a severe crash, or even being struck by a soccer ball ("heading the ball") that injury can occur. Repeated blows to the head, such as with a boxer, does, from everything I've read over the years, can cause damage to the point of diminished mental or physical capacity (usually the latter, as the motor areas of your brain are at the front for the most part, and that is where most boxing head injuries occur, also a lot of racing head injuries. That causes motor control difficulties, slurred speech, blurred vision; in former boxers, called being 'punch drunk".

Dementia and Alzheimer's occur in any segment of the human population, from far, far more causes than having one's bell rung in a crash. so it would be pretty hard to pin that on too much racing, or for that matter, too frequently undergoing relatively minor G-forces.

Art

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It would be wonderful if the dangers of carbon fibre brake dust (Salo's experience above...) led to the reintroduction of cast iron discs...

Asbestosis is a funny disease. Some people work with asbestos for a short time and get it, some work with it all their lives and don't. Did any of the '50s drivers die of asbestosis?

Other drivers who died young of heart attacks were Brian Muir and Lex Davison.

Isn't asbestosis more a disease of those who worked around asbestos being used as insulation, where the fibers are fairly long and pretty much free to float in midair?

It seems to me that were it truly something emanating from the use of asbestos in brake shoes (asbestos brake shoes were used in drum brakes for probably 75 years or so), or for that matter, the hundreds of millions of clutch facings produced and worn out in cars in the US over the years, we'd have seen a virtual extermination of auto mechanics over time from the stuff, and that doesn't seem to have been the case. Rather, asbestosis was first truly noticed in those working in shipyards, installation of steam power and heating plants, and in building trades when fairly loose asbestos was the primary insulation, and in mining the stuff (I've been around asbestos mine tailings a number of times as a kid, and the fibers used to simply blow in the wind!).

But, asbestosis from the very fine powder residue of worn brake shoes or clutch facings? Doubtful, frankly.

Art

A few drivers in the NHRA have had to retire due to detached retinas...
Reprinted from the June 5, 1992 issue of National DRAGSTER
OCALA, Fla. -- The career of one of drag racing's all-time driving greats has come to an unexpected end. Detached retinas in both eyes have forced "Big Daddy" Don Garlits to stop driving a fuel dragster.
Severe deceleration during a two-parachute stop caused the retinas to detach. According to Dr. Ivan Breed, a consulting physician for the NHRA, this detachment is more common among people of advanced age. Garlits turned 60 earlier this year.
Garlits suffers from black spots in the vision of both eyes. The spots, located away from the vision center of the eyes, are not a major problem, but an eye specialist has cautioned Garlits that subsequent major decelerations could result in more spots that might completely block his vision .
Garlits explained, "If I'm looking straight ahead, I have black spots floating around at about nine o'clock in the left eye. In my right eye, I have a spot at about 11 o'clock. It's not too bad, but that eye has a bad welding burn from years ago. The very center of the vision is ruined, so I depend on my left eye for my good sight, and I don't want anything to happen to it.
"The doctor told me, 'I'm not telling you what to do Mr. Garlits, but if I was you, I wouldn't (drive a race car again). It's too risky.'

Joe Amato retired at the end of the 2000 season because of a detached retina.

Here is a link to a 2001 article in the Journal of Sports Medicine about "Symptoms of musculoskeletal disorders in stage rally drivers and co-drivers". It mentions some of the problems that F1 drivers have experienced.
http://bjsm.bmjjourn...t/full/35/5/314

I think there is probably quite a lot in that, I have not heard of correlation between daily handling of brake linings and lung cancer, that's not to say that there may still be cause and effect. I believe there is what is known as white asbestos and blue asbestos and one of them is far more dangerous than the other. I always believed friction material was made from the less dangerous form also in brake dust it will have been subjected to great amounts of heat and it's in very fine powder form which may alter its effects ?

In the days of open face helmets drivers usually wore tightly fitting face masks tied at the back covering their mouth and nose. After a race, faces were black except where the goggles and face mask had been . Nowadays some drivers balaclavas do not cover the nose.

Clearly breathing any sort of dust and any sort of toxic gases is hugely dangerous to health and efforts should have been made to do all possible to prevent it happening, much more could be done here on both driver protection and reducing both the types and amounts of emissions, the elimination of downforce would take G forces back to medically sensible levels , it's certainly not doing anything for the quality of the racing - quite the opposite.

I had wondered if WRC rally driver Richard Burns Brain tumor or whatever precisely his brain condition is, was in any way a legacy of massive rally crashes over a period. The car structures are now massively stiff and strong , - but the forces then are bigger in the human body.

After all , racing cars isn't as important as combat fighters on a mission - where are the governing bodies in all this ?.

I read once about a rally driver that said that his back was in conditions very similar to those reported
normally by men in their sixties...and he was, at the time of the interview, only thiry-something years old !

Obviously this is a particularly relevant issue for rally drivers and co-drivers (i.e.: this year many of them fell short of breath for some seconds after the "yumps" of the 1000 Lakes, such was the sheer force of the rebound), but I think this problem could be more or less related to any form of motor racing.

Burns was not known as a "crasher" and a couple of more recent major shunts were probably due to his illness beginning to affect him rather than being the cause of it?
The co-driver injuries in Finland were discussed on another forum. The reason was a new stage not practised at full speed. "Rally Finland" (better known as 1000 Lakes) does not use some of the worst jumps now. On that event, top speeds are probably closer to what they always were than any other rally) ie. not such an increase with modern 4wd. I did the event as a co-driver as long ago as 1974 and we were one of the first amateurs to experiment on UK events with fitting the co-drivers seat on the floor and far back. Seats then were more standard and more padded than now. I have compaction of lower vertebrae a bit before the normal age expectation and I can't relate it to anything other than rally co-driving - certainly not to competition driving.

Originally posted by RTH

I had wondered if WRC rally driver Richard Burns Brain tumor or whatever precisely his brain condition is, was in any way a legacy of massive rally crashes over a period. The car structures are now massively stiff and strong , - but the forces then are bigger in the human body.

.

No, most definitely not. I'm afraid that most cancers, including Richard's, are a matter of just being the unlucky bugger whose name is on the malignant bomb. Gunnar Nilsson's testicular cancer was equally a question of misfortune rather than having his crutch straps too tight.

Steve McQueen died of a peritoneal mesothelioma which is a condition related to asbestos exposure. However his disease was related to years in the shipyards rather than brake dust wafting back from the front of his 908.

I've treated far too many patients with cancer and the only common thread seems to be the fact that it happens to the nicest of people....

Speaking of Petty, would the fact he had massive ulcers and had a substantial length of his lower intestine removed in the mid-late 1970's, when he was arguably at the waning peak of his prowess and popularity and which he blamed on overwhelming stress, fall under this category?

Originally posted by theunions
Speaking of Petty, would the fact he had massive ulcers and had a substantial length of his lower intestine removed in the mid-late 1970's, when he was arguably at the waning peak of his prowess and popularity and which he blamed on overwhelming stress, fall under this category?

Good point Earl. Stress related ulcers hit Fred Lorenzen and Marvin Panch and I even think Ned Jarrett had a bit of a problem. Interesting those came during the factory battles (Ford vs. Mopar) and tire wars. Those definitely have to be chalked up to job environment. The three Ford drivers mentioned above all retired in perhaps little more than a year's time.

No one I know of has done any study of the figures, but I do wonder if drivers suffer slightly higher rate of cancer or higher rates of certain types of cancer.

I was going to say Petty's use of oxygen at races I witnessed may have been partly the result of him still recovering from that operation. As to cause, I can't recall exact timescales but it must have been likely the stomach/intestine problem (at the time I'm sure it was reported as stomach) had at least started before the Dodge Magnum proved to be such a dog in 78? The switch to GM was at Dover in September 78 in a Monte Carlo (I was there too) so all the stress of that was later and winning Daytona in February 79 (albeit by default after the Yarborough/D.Allison incident) must have been a further boost?
I'd forgotten I knew any of this - a brief interlude living away from rallying in UK and Europe!

Petty also habitually chewed aspirin before races. That may have had an impact on his innards.

Most definitely so. Time to mention Skoal Bandits and the risk to fishermen of warming their maggots ?

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson
Isn't asbestosis more a disease of those who worked around asbestos being used as insulation, where the fibers are fairly long and pretty much free to float in midair?

It seems to me that were it truly something emanating from the use of asbestos in brake shoes (asbestos brake shoes were used in drum brakes for probably 75 years or so), or for that matter, the hundreds of millions of clutch facings produced and worn out in cars in the US over the years, we'd have seen a virtual extermination of auto mechanics over time from the stuff, and that doesn't seem to have been the case.....

I can't say for sure, Art, but I have been told about an apprentice mechanic who worked in a brake shop... part of his job was blowing the dust out of brake drums of every car they worked on.

They buried him before he finished his apprenticeship...

It might be related, it might not. I've known a kid that age to go in six weeks with testicular cancer after being hit in the cods by a cricket ball.

bill moffat... have you ever read Larry C White's book, The Smoking Business? There's a neat story in there about chewing tobacco!

Slightly off thread, back in the late 70's my brother worked for a large insurance company and one of the statistics that he came up with, was "the biggest heart attack risk group" in the UK was London Bus Drivers! Hmmm.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/...nt/33/4/270.pdf

Here is a nice article that fits into this thread.

As a physician it is always interesting to see disease trends evolve.

Whilst drug and alcohol abuse has become less common amongst top-line drivers a devastating new disease known as "forsureitis " is sweeping the paddocks of the world.

At this stage there is no known antidote and the disease is cutting a terrible swathe through the linguistic capabilities of unsuspecting drivers. The moment that a microphone appears the stricken driver appears glazed and bewildered and is able to utter little else other than "for sure".

Latest victim is poor Massa who has an FSC (sorry a medical term - a for sure count) of 4 following his post practice interview in Melbourne. Sad to see.

Originally posted by RTH
...........After all , racing cars isn't as important as combat fighters on a mission - where are the governing bodies in all this ?.

Governing bodies, especially in motor racing, are nowhere.
Practically they never existed, like we discover everyday in this forum.

I am always happy for thread like that, because everything converge to the point that real motor racing was before wings and slicks.

Ciao to all.
MonzaDriver.

Interesting thread. Sir Jack Brabham turns 81 in a couple of weeks (I have posted a new thread on this on the BB) so he may be the exception rather than the rule. However like many men who worked throughout the 50's, 60's and even 70's in Australia the term "industrial deafness" was unknown. I know Sir Jack's hearing has been badly affected but apart from that he is fighting fit.

He puts this down to simple food and never having been a smoker or drinker. Perhaps attitude has something to do with it as he said "I want to be a man who dies without an enemy in the world: I aim to outlive bastards".

Seems like a good philosophy to me! Or maybe we grow 'em tough in the Land Down Under!

Interesting thread. For almost all my own racing career I was involved in the preparation of my machines which brought me into daily contact with leaded petrol. We washed all our parts in it with our bare hands and breathed in the fumes without thinking about the consequences.
Soon after I stopped racing I started feeling very, very lethargic and mentally depressed. I had absolutely no energy and even getting out of bed was an effort. I consulted many doctors who did an untold number of tests on me, all with the same result. Nothing. Over the years my condition improved gradually to the point where today I feel normal again, thank God.
I was telling a friend of mine about this experience recently and he suggested I was suffering from lead poisoning. I wonder how right he was, and if there could have been any long term damage, ie heart etc.

Originally posted by bill moffat
As a physician it is always interesting to see disease trends evolve.

Whilst drug and alcohol abuse has become less common amongst top-line drivers a devastating new disease known as "forsureitis " is sweeping the paddocks of the world.

At this stage there is no known antidote and the disease is cutting a terrible swathe through the linguistic capabilities of unsuspecting drivers. The moment that a microphone appears the stricken driver appears glazed and bewildered and is able to utter little else other than "for sure".

Latest victim is poor Massa who has an FSC (sorry a medical term - a for sure count) of 4 following his post practice interview in Melbourne. Sad to see.

Y'know, for sure, we have run this up the flagpole to see who salutes it at the end of the day - in a very meaningful way - before. It was at this moment in time.

[This message was brought to you by ClichesRUs]

To ExRhodie racer:

Nah - you were simply depressed because you were no longer getting the adrenalin and dopamin kicks from racing ;)

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Interesting thread. For almost all my own racing career I was involved in the preparation of my machines which brought me into daily contact with leaded petrol. We washed all our parts in it with our bare hands and breathed in the fumes without thinking about the consequences.
Soon after I stopped racing I started feeling very, very lethargic and mentally depressed. I had absolutely no energy and even getting out of bed was an effort. I consulted many doctors who did an untold number of tests on me, all with the same result. Nothing. Over the years my condition improved gradually to the point where today I feel normal again, thank God.
I was telling a friend of mine about this experience recently and he suggested I was suffering from lead poisoning. I wonder how right he was, and if there could have been any long term damage, ie heart etc.

Saturnism, is the medical term for Lead poisoning.

Isn't the most common disease debilitation of the wallet?

Originally posted by Sharman
Isn't the most common disease debilitation of the wallet?

A pandemic disease indeed :

Originally posted by WHITE



Saturnism, is the medical term for Lead poisoning.

Yes, thank you for that. Looked it up and found some interesting information.

Didn't Gehard Berger shatter his upper jaw through clinching his teeth while racing? It led to a rash of drivers (and still quite a few bike racers) to use very soft gum shields.

Originally posted by RTH


Nasa say prolonged sustained exposure to more that 1.5 G causes brain damage , today's GP drivers have 4 G then -4G as they go through corners and 'spikes' of 8 G through chicanes , in Button's Monaco accident at the point of impact recorded 48G.

In Moss' day they never exceeded 1.5 G . The brain which is a substance with the consistancy of a jelly is damaged every time it strikes the inside of the scull this is cumulative and causes Parkinsons, dementure, and Altzhimers related conditions. Look at Mohammed Ali. Like everything else doesn't effect everyone in the same way and usually revealed decades after the event !

The time which the human brain can tolerate a specific G level is related to time...as defined by the Wayne State Curve, I think?

To what extend can we trace back many health problems, that may occur, due to LEAD that was used in fuel?

It is common knowledge that lead is a powerful toxin that mostly affects the brain. Lead exposure and poisoning surely can lead to long-term health problems, including:

Lowered IQ
Hyperactivity
Lack of concentration
Reading and learning difficulties
Hearing Loss
Anaemia
Muscle Paralysis

What does Doc Moffat say??

Busy at work at present but promise a long and (hopefully) uncomplicated answer this evening.

As an aside, I would say that by far the most common occupational/recreational metal poisoning encountered in motor sport relates to over-exposure to Armco ;)

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
. For almost all my own racing career I was involved in the preparation of my machines which brought me into daily contact with leaded petrol. We washed all our parts in it with our bare hands and breathed in the fumes without thinking about the consequences.

There was quite a lot of communication in france recently about the risks of exposure to gasolin - be it by breathing the vapours, or through the usual practice of cleaning engine parts in it.....but the evil substance pointed at was "benzène" ( that's what it's called in french anyway ) rather than lead.....I'm no doctor so I won't say more but I trust our Welsh physician Bill will enlighten us on the subject.

Racing itself is an Illness! It's adicting!

Whichever lately diagnosed disease from years ago is discovered, you can be sure the Lawyers will be in there.