I know the driver and car but double points for the circuit as I don't know where it was taken.
Allen
Time for another mystery picture?
Started by
Allen Brown
, Aug 20 2005 10:32
56 replies to this topic
#1
Allen Brown
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 10:32
Just tidying my desk and found this. No clues whatsoever as you guys are too good to need clues.
I know the driver and car but double points for the circuit as I don't know where it was taken.
Allen
I know the driver and car but double points for the circuit as I don't know where it was taken.
Allen
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#2
WGD706
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 13:45
The circuit looks like Mid-Ohio.
Warren
Warren
#3
Allen Brown
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 13:51
Would make sense. Any guesses on the car or driver?
#4
WGD706
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 14:28
Lola T70? Walter Hansgen?
#5
Allen Brown
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 14:40
Sorry Warren, not even close.
#6
Allen Brown
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 20:27
Have I got you all at last?
#7
philippe charuest
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 21:41
a special base on a huffaker-genie maybe ?
#8
Ray Bell
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 21:42
Not totally...
It's not a big car, probably 1600 or 2-litres, it seems to have Brabham wheels. Could it have a Porsche engine?
The front is a lot like an Elfin 300, but that's not what the car is. Notable is the fact that the other cars in the background are also smallbore cars. SCCA Championship race?
It's not a big car, probably 1600 or 2-litres, it seems to have Brabham wheels. Could it have a Porsche engine?
The front is a lot like an Elfin 300, but that's not what the car is. Notable is the fact that the other cars in the background are also smallbore cars. SCCA Championship race?
#9
Pedro 917
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Posted 20 August 2005 - 22:50
....and when it flips, it will still have the same race number!
#10
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 02:16
Where the heck is the engine in this thingie? In noting the placement of the driver and the close proximity of the rollover bar, there appears to be precious little room for any typical fore/aft mid-engine type configuration. There's next to no rear overhang that might indicate a true rear engine layout as per a VW Beetle. Is it transverse-mounted, mid-engine car?
The front bonnet appears to be fashionably low ala mid-mounted engines and doesn't appear to have enough volume to house an engine.
The size, style and width of the wheels and tires remind one of contemporary mid-1960's fieldings.
Locale? Looks most unsavoury. No idea.
The front bonnet appears to be fashionably low ala mid-mounted engines and doesn't appear to have enough volume to house an engine.
The size, style and width of the wheels and tires remind one of contemporary mid-1960's fieldings.
Locale? Looks most unsavoury. No idea.
#11
bobdar
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 05:03
Porsche-powered Sable??
#12
Frank S
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 06:02
It's the B S/R 4-M Special out of Cambridge Mass, of course.Originally posted by bobdar
Porsche-powered Sable??
R.S. Payne-Herbert
Bobsy-Porsche
Daytona?
--
Frank S
#13
Frank S
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 06:20
The wheels on No. 69 car look like American Libre mags. I think that car is later than the No. 65 car, which is "1965". So, let's guess "1969" for the No. 69 car.
#14
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 10:01
BSR - yes
Bobsy - no
Porsche - no
Sable - no
Payne-Stewart - no
Bobsy - no
Porsche - no
Sable - no
Payne-Stewart - no
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 11:42
But is it a R 4-M Special out of Cambridge Mass?
#16
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 12:18
It may well be out of Cambridge Mass as those words are on the side of the car, as is the 'B' denoting a BSR car running in a mixed category race, but "R 4-M Special" is not what is printed on the original picture as the car type.
If it helps, on the original picture you can see the words "4-M Petroleum Corp" above "Cambridge, Mass." on the rar of the car and it says "4-M Special" on the flank. So 4-M looks like it was the sponsor.
If it helps, on the original picture you can see the words "4-M Petroleum Corp" above "Cambridge, Mass." on the rar of the car and it says "4-M Special" on the flank. So 4-M looks like it was the sponsor.
#17
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 12:21
And not Payne-Herbert either. (sorry - wrong sport 
)
)
#18
David McKinney
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 13:08
OK
But wasn't BSR for big cars? 5-litre jobbies?
But wasn't BSR for big cars? 5-litre jobbies?
#19
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 13:25
By the time I was interested in ASR and BSR (the post-77 Can-Am era), ASR was for 5-litre cars and BSR for 2-litre. But in earlier years ASR might have been unlimited and BSR a different capacity.
I don't think BSR was ever for 5-litre cars but I may be wrong.
To give you a bit more of a clue, the car in the picture is under 3 litres.
Allen
I don't think BSR was ever for 5-litre cars but I may be wrong.
To give you a bit more of a clue, the car in the picture is under 3 litres.
Allen
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#20
David McKinney
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 15:17
You're no doubt right
I'm going back to the olden days, when FIA classes were used in SCCA racing, with an 'M' suffix for modified (what we would now call sports/racing) cars and 'P' for production, eg CM or FP.
I'm going back to the olden days, when FIA classes were used in SCCA racing, with an 'M' suffix for modified (what we would now call sports/racing) cars and 'P' for production, eg CM or FP.
#21
WGD706
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 20:06
Seeing as how I think it's taken at Mid Ohio and your response is "Would make sense" leads me to wonder if it's not Bobby Rahal early in his career.Originally posted by Allen Brown
Would make sense. Any guesses on the car or driver?
Warren
#22
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 20:20
Too early for Rahal, I think.
Time for some clues?
The car was built in 1965 and raced in BSR for seven or eight seasons. I believe this was the second car of this name, the earlier one having been racing in 1963.
The picture was a publicity shot for the Boston Auto Show as the car was on display at the SCCA booth. The caption on the picture says it has a Climax engine but a web page dedicated to the car says it initially had an Italian engine but then gained a BDA as soon as they were available.
And there are at least four pictures of it on the web so it's not that obscure.
Allen
Time for some clues?
The car was built in 1965 and raced in BSR for seven or eight seasons. I believe this was the second car of this name, the earlier one having been racing in 1963.
The picture was a publicity shot for the Boston Auto Show as the car was on display at the SCCA booth. The caption on the picture says it has a Climax engine but a web page dedicated to the car says it initially had an Italian engine but then gained a BDA as soon as they were available.
And there are at least four pictures of it on the web so it's not that obscure.
Allen
#23
Jeremy Jackson
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 21:03
No idea on the driver, but I think it's an early LeGrand...?
#24
Ray Bell
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Posted 21 August 2005 - 21:21
Formula B was 1600... I'm sure you'll find that B/SR was also 1600cc...
I've lost all my SCGs Allen, or I'd know by how who it was!
I've lost all my SCGs Allen, or I'd know by how who it was!
#26
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 22 August 2005 - 12:24
Wild guess
Elva/Chevron BMW with new 'topless' body?
Peter Gethin?
Mid Ohio?
Screen looks rather Protos like
Elva/Chevron BMW with new 'topless' body?
Peter Gethin?
Mid Ohio?
Screen looks rather Protos like
#27
Allen Brown
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 16:54
No, not a Forsgrini or an Elva or a Chevron. The car was built in the US.
I think I'll let this run a little longer
This is the first time I've ever stumped TNF.
I think I'll let this run a little longer
This is the first time I've ever stumped TNF.
#28
Jeremy Jackson
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 17:14
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
No idea on the driver, but I think it's an early LeGrand...?
Not that either..?
#29
ggnagy
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 17:15
The cockpit forward looks like an early Merlyn or thereabouts. Could it perhaps be the Arachnid II?
#30
Dave Ware
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 20:05
Long ago, ASR (A Sports Racing) was for Group 7 cars. Full-blown ex-Can Am cars. Probably ex-USRRC cars as well. I seem to recall that BSR was for two-liter sports cars, but I could be wrong.
My first thought on the circuit was Mid-Ohio. This looks like the Carousel, with the pit entrance on the right of the photo.
Although this picture pre-dates my first experience with Mid-Ohio (1972), I'll venture that it was taken somewhere else.
In the back of the picture we see at least one trailer and some cars. Looks like they're paddocked there. I never saw anyone paddocked in that location. And while they might have done so before my time, why would they? The pit entrance is on the other side of the track (on the right of this picture.) If they paddocked where the trailer is in that picture, then to get on track they would either need to drive right off the grass onto the track, or drive on the grass down the length of the pit straigth, cross the bridge (if the bridge had been built by then) drive into the actual paddock and then drive into the pit lane and THEN onto the track. Are either of those senarios very likely?
The entrance to pit lane looks too close to the pit straight. Yes, such things can change in 40 years and they may have done so.
The attitude of the third car doesn't look right. If this is the Mid-Ohio carousel, he should be exiting the 180 degree right hander, in preperation to take the final left hander onto the pit straight. The car appears to be too straight to be exiting the 180, and too far over to his left. Of course, the driver could have just messed up.
That's my 2 cents, fwiw. No clue on the car or driver, although the driver appears to be smiling.
Dave
P.S. And if it is Mid-Ohio, why is car 69 still on the left side of the track? He should have apexed and should be tracking out by now!
My first thought on the circuit was Mid-Ohio. This looks like the Carousel, with the pit entrance on the right of the photo.
Although this picture pre-dates my first experience with Mid-Ohio (1972), I'll venture that it was taken somewhere else.
In the back of the picture we see at least one trailer and some cars. Looks like they're paddocked there. I never saw anyone paddocked in that location. And while they might have done so before my time, why would they? The pit entrance is on the other side of the track (on the right of this picture.) If they paddocked where the trailer is in that picture, then to get on track they would either need to drive right off the grass onto the track, or drive on the grass down the length of the pit straigth, cross the bridge (if the bridge had been built by then) drive into the actual paddock and then drive into the pit lane and THEN onto the track. Are either of those senarios very likely?
The entrance to pit lane looks too close to the pit straight. Yes, such things can change in 40 years and they may have done so.
The attitude of the third car doesn't look right. If this is the Mid-Ohio carousel, he should be exiting the 180 degree right hander, in preperation to take the final left hander onto the pit straight. The car appears to be too straight to be exiting the 180, and too far over to his left. Of course, the driver could have just messed up.
That's my 2 cents, fwiw. No clue on the car or driver, although the driver appears to be smiling.
Dave
P.S. And if it is Mid-Ohio, why is car 69 still on the left side of the track? He should have apexed and should be tracking out by now!
#31
Allen Brown
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 20:43
No Jeremy, not a LeGrand. Nor a Merlyn or the Arachnid II, ggnagy.
Dave - the driver was from the North East so maybe it's further east than Mid-Ohio. I'm not sure how far he ventured in this car.
Dave - the driver was from the North East so maybe it's further east than Mid-Ohio. I'm not sure how far he ventured in this car.
#32
WGD706
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 21:13
Originally posted by Allen Brown
the driver was from the North East so maybe it's further east than Mid-Ohio. I'm not sure how far he ventured in this car.
We can rule out a few tracks like Lime Rock and Thompson in Connecticut and Bridgehampton and Watkins Glen in New York anyway.
I still think it looks like an early Mid-Ohio. Ohio businessman Les Griebling founded Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in 1962 as a place where he, his associates and friends could indulge their passion for sports cars. It wasn't really up-graded until Jim Trueman bought it in 1981.
If not Mid-Ohio, how about Bryar Motorsport Park in New Hampshire?
http://www.silhouet....ks/newhamp.html
That would give Dave's reasoning about the paddock parking alot of sense.
Warren
#34
ggnagy
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Posted 24 August 2005 - 12:05
Originally posted by Dave Ware
Long ago, ASR (A Sports Racing) was for Group 7 cars. Full-blown ex-Can Am cars. Probably ex-USRRC cars as well. I seem to recall that BSR was for two-liter sports cars, but I could be wrong.
My first thought on the circuit was Mid-Ohio. This looks like the Carousel, with the pit entrance on the right of the photo.
Although this picture pre-dates my first experience with Mid-Ohio (1972), I'll venture that it was taken somewhere else.
In the back of the picture we see at least one trailer and some cars. Looks like they're paddocked there. I never saw anyone paddocked in that location. And while they might have done so before my time, why would they? The pit entrance is on the other side of the track (on the right of this picture.) If they paddocked where the trailer is in that picture, then to get on track they would either need to drive right off the grass onto the track, or drive on the grass down the length of the pit straigth, cross the bridge (if the bridge had been built by then) drive into the actual paddock and then drive into the pit lane and THEN onto the track. Are either of those senarios very likely?
The entrance to pit lane looks too close to the pit straight. Yes, such things can change in 40 years and they may have done so.
The attitude of the third car doesn't look right. If this is the Mid-Ohio carousel, he should be exiting the 180 degree right hander, in preperation to take the final left hander onto the pit straight. The car appears to be too straight to be exiting the 180, and too far over to his left. Of course, the driver could have just messed up.
That's my 2 cents, fwiw. No clue on the car or driver, although the driver appears to be smiling.
Dave
P.S. And if it is Mid-Ohio, why is car 69 still on the left side of the track? He should have apexed and should be tracking out by now!
I was thinking that for whatever reason cars were benig routed from false grid to the track before pit in. Not knowing MO from that era, I'm not sure if that is possible, but probable. It would explain the odd angle and positions of the cars.
The purpose built appearance and hill rules out the airport circuits, and the shape rules out Nelsons Ledges, VIR, Summit Point, Marlboro, and Pocono, FWIW.
Nothing else "unique" enough shows up on the ARRC results page, so we can rule out a top three B/sr driver from the NE.
It is "probably" safe to say that the picture is post 67, because there was a 2-3 year transition period where the "modified" designation was changed to "sports racer" but the old displacement categories were kept. That would have made the car a d/sr or e/sr during that time period, I believe.
I also did not find very many likely candidates beyond my guess on the VIR or Cumberland sites, but had stuck to National SCCA events. Hmmm.. would a regional driver venture that far south.
#35
Dave Ware
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Posted 24 August 2005 - 14:20
[QUOTE]I still think it looks like an early Mid-Ohio. Ohio businessman Les Griebling founded Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in 1962 as a place where he, his associates and friends could indulge their passion for sports cars. It wasn't really up-graded until Jim Trueman bought it in 1981.
Good points. It could be Mid-Ohio.
The cars and trailer (s) in the background of the picture still bother me.
Too bad Allen doesn't know the circuit. It would be nice to find out.
Dave
Good points. It could be Mid-Ohio.
The cars and trailer (s) in the background of the picture still bother me.
Too bad Allen doesn't know the circuit. It would be nice to find out.
Dave
#36
Ruairidh
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Posted 24 August 2005 - 17:13
Its a very pretty car IMHO, but its got me stumped as to what it is. Allen - any chance of another clue? Don't make it too easy, maybe something to do with the earlier model by the same maker....
#37
Allen Brown
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Posted 24 August 2005 - 18:04
I've seen pictures of the car elsewhere on the web with the bodywork off and it looks a very professional peice of work. It's a proper tub; a bit boxy but very competent. I believe the aluminum panels are stressed over a steel tube frame. The suspension is described as being "a 4-wheel independent design". The body was designed by an aircraft engineer but built up by the same man who designed the car. The car designer is better known in the drag racing world.
Rumour has it that the car held the Lime Rock lap record (for its class presumably) and was a national champion at some point but I have to take that with a pinch of salt as I still haven't managed to find a note of it in ARRC records. It may have been a pre-68 DSR or ESR originally but the picture clearly shows it running in BSR so that must be after 1968.
The earlier car was said to be a home-made Lotus 23.
And no, not a McKee.
Allen
Rumour has it that the car held the Lime Rock lap record (for its class presumably) and was a national champion at some point but I have to take that with a pinch of salt as I still haven't managed to find a note of it in ARRC records. It may have been a pre-68 DSR or ESR originally but the picture clearly shows it running in BSR so that must be after 1968.
The earlier car was said to be a home-made Lotus 23.
And no, not a McKee.
Allen
#38
MoMurray
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 01:01
I've only ever been there once, but from my murky recollection, this could be Summit Point West Virginia...???
Mo.
Mo.
#39
Ruairidh
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 03:19
Got it - Brahma BII 
Does that mean John Sharrigan is at the wheel? And I have no idea where the picture was taken.....
I do think it is a pretty car......
Does that mean John Sharrigan is at the wheel? And I have no idea where the picture was taken.....I do think it is a pretty car......
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#40
Allen Brown
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 06:21
Absolutely correct. John Sharrigan in the Brahma.
What else can you tell us abot the car? It's a very nice looking car and a much higher quality that I'd have expected for such an obscure one-off BSR.
#41
WGD706
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 17:59
In 1965, Paul Fitzgerald and his friend and SCCA driver, John Sharrigan, built the Brahma B-II CanAm B-Sports road-racing car. This car was designed by Paul FitzGerald with an all aluminum, semi-monocoque structure and a unique 4-wheel independent suspension design. Powered by a 285 HP BDA Ford engine, the car with fluids, weighed 960 pounds. John set numerous course records and won countless SCCA event. He finally won the 1972 National Championship in B Sports Racing. The car is currently being restored in Great Britain.
This chassis was built about the same time Jim Hall was building his famous Chaparral A-Sports Racer in Texas. Both cars unknowingly shared the same frame construction technology, utilizing stressed aluminum panels, riveted together rather using a heavier and more flexible, welded steel tubing structure. The body was designed by Sikorsky Aircraft Engineer Neil Chiavaroli and was built of full-size forms by Chiavaroli, FitzGerald and Sharrigan. This car began “life” with an Abarth 4-cylinder engine, which was quickly replaced when the new Ford BDA power plant became available.
http://www.fitzgeral....com/brahma.htm
Warren
This chassis was built about the same time Jim Hall was building his famous Chaparral A-Sports Racer in Texas. Both cars unknowingly shared the same frame construction technology, utilizing stressed aluminum panels, riveted together rather using a heavier and more flexible, welded steel tubing structure. The body was designed by Sikorsky Aircraft Engineer Neil Chiavaroli and was built of full-size forms by Chiavaroli, FitzGerald and Sharrigan. This car began “life” with an Abarth 4-cylinder engine, which was quickly replaced when the new Ford BDA power plant became available.
http://www.fitzgeral....com/brahma.htm
Warren
#42
Ruairidh
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 18:46
Originally posted by Allen Brown
What else can you tell us abot the car? It's a very nice looking car and a much higher quality that I'd have expected for such an obscure one-off BSR.
I'm afraid nothing more than you've already seen or extracted above. None of my patchy collection (or the equally patchy internet) collection of sportscar results from the mid-60s helped at all, it wasn't a car I recognized (although, to my eye, it does have a touch of miniture Lola about it, you made it clear it wasn't British) and in the end a web search based on "Abarth" (the Italian engine clue from earlier) came up with the website WGD706 cites.
Further searches on "John Sharrigan" do turn up a picture of the Brahma BI, but there is really very very little else........but I enjoyed the hunt!
#43
Allen Brown
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 19:49
I tried so hard to make sure nobody could google the answer.Originally posted by Ruairidh
... in the end a web search based on "Abarth" (the Italian engine clue from earlier) came up with the website WGD706 cites.
Next time, less clues!!
#44
WGD706
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 21:31
It still took us 5 days to figure it out. Have we come to any consensus about where the photo was taken?Originally posted by Allen Brown
I tried so hard to make sure nobody could google the answer.
Next time, less clues!!
Warren
#45
Ray Bell
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Posted 25 August 2005 - 21:37
Indeed... I think there was just enough suspense and intrigue in this one...
Mind you, if the termites hadn't got to my SCG collection back in 1977, things might have been different!
Mind you, if the termites hadn't got to my SCG collection back in 1977, things might have been different!
#46
ggnagy
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Posted 26 August 2005 - 16:33
Originally posted by WGD706
It still took us 5 days to figure it out. Have we come to any consensus about where the photo was taken?
Warren
I will throw out 5 possibilities based on configuration ( a left turn entrace to pits inside a left turn), but I think MO is the safest bet.
1. Pocono - Right area, right era, but flat as a pancake inside the oval
2. Bryar - Can anyone confirm that the pits were on the outside of the track? Otherwise it pretty much fits.
3. Atlantic Motorsports Park - a bit late (1974) and not an SCCA track.
4. Waterford Hills - Getting a bit far away distance wise, and not an SCCA track.
5. Fits era and shape. Isn't in North East Division, but a close out of division track. Possibly a WOR Games race weekend.
#47
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 August 2005 - 21:54
Is it unknown for a trailer park to be across the circuit from the pits in the US?
#48
eldougo
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Posted 27 August 2005 - 08:13
Originally posted by Allen Brown
I've seen pictures of the car elsewhere on the web with the bodywork off and it looks a very professional peice of work. It's a proper tub; a bit boxy but very competent. I believe the aluminum panels are stressed over a steel tube frame.
The suspension is described as being "a 4-wheel independent design". The body was designed by an aircraft engineer but built up by the same man who designed the car. The car designer is better known in the drag racing world.
Allen
Good mystery this one Allen,however you said above (It's a proper tub).But a proper tub would not be stressed over a steel frame,it would be an all alloy construction don't you think.
#49
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 August 2005 - 08:22
There are a couple of reasons I'd react to that statement, Doug...
First, there are many monocoque tubs that have a mix of steel and aluminium in them. Steel bulkheads rivetted into the alloy outer skin is common, especially where high loads are fed into the tub.
Then there are some designs like the old Cheetahs (Mk 6, 7?) which had the four main tubes pass through the whole length of the chassis and then form the basis of the monocoque as the stressed panels were rivetted around them. Especially as the later versions developed, these definitely used the monocoque principles even if there was a set of tubes up through the 'tub'.
Look also at the mixture in the Rennmaxes built for Heasman, Miedecke etc. These had tubular substructures created for the front and rear ends, then these were heavily rivetted to the aluminium sheet that was formed up to constitute the central part of the chassis.
First, there are many monocoque tubs that have a mix of steel and aluminium in them. Steel bulkheads rivetted into the alloy outer skin is common, especially where high loads are fed into the tub.
Then there are some designs like the old Cheetahs (Mk 6, 7?) which had the four main tubes pass through the whole length of the chassis and then form the basis of the monocoque as the stressed panels were rivetted around them. Especially as the later versions developed, these definitely used the monocoque principles even if there was a set of tubes up through the 'tub'.
Look also at the mixture in the Rennmaxes built for Heasman, Miedecke etc. These had tubular substructures created for the front and rear ends, then these were heavily rivetted to the aluminium sheet that was formed up to constitute the central part of the chassis.
#50
Allen Brown
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Posted 27 August 2005 - 08:26
Good point Doug. I should have said it looks like a proper tub but that it may be stressed panels. As well as the cars Ray mentions, Ferrari used a stressed panel approach in the 1960s and didn't BRM use that approach for the P25 in the 1950s. Even so, the term 'proper tub' probably belongs to the type of construction pioneered with the Lotus 25.
Allen
Allen
