Ferrari P4 on the streets of LA early 1970s?

I talked recently to an American who says he owned a Ferrari 330P4 in the early 1970s and briefly used it both as his road car and...wait for it... in covert street races in L.A. where it won him ownership of several muscle cars.
There are no photos to back this tale up but he did quote me the chassis number, it's previous race history, previous owner he bought it from, the guy who prepared it for road use etc etc. and a further twist is that he says he was friends with Dean Martin's son, Dino, who had a canary yellow 330 P3 and the pair of them hung out and raced together for a time.

Now it's a great story and it conjours up some nice imagery in the mind of a time when old race cars, even Ferrari's, were just old race cars, not investment opportunities. But is it any more than a story ? I have nothing to substantiate it either way so hold my degree of belief well in check. Has anyone heard of this before?

Simon Lewis
Transport Books

I remember an article written many years ago about Dino Martin driving a yellow 330P3 on the street. I think the article was in Motor trend magazine, cannot remember the year or author.

Concerning the 330P4 on the street, never heard about that.

Bill

Dean Martin Jr had c/n 0850, which was yellow; the other probable would be 0854 which was used on the street in the USA - how about the names Chris Cord (prime suspect), Carl Bross, or Jarold Evans?

"MkIVJ6" on this forum now owns 0854 BTW.


Paul M

I don't know anything about a P4, but Dino Martin Jr's yellow P3 could be seen quite often parked at Hollywood Sports Cars.

That was the era of "Banzai Runs" in L.A.

Fast car guys would meet in the early morning hours near one freeway entrance or another, show their stuff, make wagers, and haul butt to another site. It would take a connected, inventive photographer to make photo evidence of that.

That was an era when there was little traffic on the freeways. Can't do it as safely these days, although the Rice Rocket Jockeys get their rockets off that way from time to time.

In San Diego there was (still is, maybe) a freeway-racing penchant that has resulted in some mid-day massacres, shards of Oriental Metal and flesh strewn about, with occasional by-driver carnage thrown in.

--
Frank S

from the various sources I got on the ,YELLOW (BElgian racing color)330 P4 , this info is true

The P4 Chassis number 0850 , was in fact a 412 P assembled for the 1967 season, on the basis of one of the three 1966 P3 chassis that where NEVER ASSEMBLED cause of strikes in 1966 .

0850 was selled to ECURIE FRANCORCHAMPS and painted in yellow
Raced at DAYTONA and SPA 1967 .Crashed at SPA, entered his last Sport car race at 1000 km PARIS in November 1967 , still in Yellow .Finished its racing career at the ALLE sur SEROIS Hillclimb in Belgium , the 12 May 1968.Anyway, the only P4 to not enter the LE MANS 1967 race .
Then ECURIE FRANCORCHAMPS selled it to DEAN MARTIN Junior .Alas, before bringing it back to the USA, he ordered a transformation of the car to Maranello Ferrari Factory .(rear bonnet, lateral windows , no roof )
DEAN MARTIN JUNIOR drove it on Los Angeles streets at the end of the sixties and early seventies, then selled it to another american collector .This american has the wise Idea to put again the car in it s ORIGINAL 412 P shape .

Seems for the info you have the car is still in the USA with a new owner now .The car appeared in its yellow color on various historic events or american Ferraris owner club manifestation recently


regarding the 0854 chassis number, I have no infos about this car using US road in the past ...David Piper was the english owner, then sold it to a Japanese collector, car flying to Japan .In 1995 , he sold it to PAUL WESTREY that still race the car in historic races nowadays in England .Did he sell it to "MK IV J6 " ??

The details of 0854 are given in an article in Cavallino #55, and it was Chris Cord who raced Dino Martin apparently.

History here:

http://www.barchetta...l/0854.412P.htm

But not up-to-date with current ownership.............



Paul M

Paul Vestey ran the ex-Maranello Concessionaires '0854' on the road occasionally during his ownership here in England - I recall one trip under hot sun on Hampshire country roads vividly since the engine bay bulkhead behind our shoulders got so hot that - together with the effects of the sun blazing down through that big goldfish bowl windscreen - it was like being trapped in a grain dryer. Twenty miles = 10lbs of sweated-off weight loss. Thank God the car was in open spyder form, not roofed-in as a Berlinetta. Unless they were well piped-up with 'Donkey Dick' cool-air trunking these cars were appallingly ill-suited to public road use if one used any of their potential performance, quite apart (as thoroughbred road racers) from their other public road limitations. However, I will admit that the LM I ran briefly on the public road was perhaps even worse (although admittedly that was largely due to the fact that one did not dare slip the clutch, since even momentary slippage tended to burn it out, so every road junction or traffic light triggered a slam-bam-WHAMMMM!!!! re-start... : )

Unless you are a complete lookit-me airhead I can see NO good reason - beyond fleeting curiosity, or the enthusiasm of keen kids with money to burn - to abuse and demean these cars through public road use. If you have some wonky, childlike psychological need for 'That Look' there are plenty of road tailored replicas around, some of which are pretty habitable and nice - unlike The Real Things.

DCN

All of this sounds familiar except for the chassis number I was given ... which is 0858 and this was a quite definate part of the story I got.
I read elsewhere that this car did end up in the USA and was "sold into private hands" Could there have been two P4s on the streets around this time?

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Mmmmmmm.....................0858 is the car that was featured in a previous thread when it was seized by the American IRS against a tax bill and bought back by its owner Walter Medlin, maybe not for the first time.

It's been in original Can-Am spyder configuration since the end of 1967, and I believe in one ownership since the end of its racing career at the end of 1969..........

http://www.barchetta.../0858.330P4.htm

Paul

Originally posted by Macca
Dean Martin Jr had c/n 0850, which was yellow; the other probable would be 0854 which was used on the street in the USA - how about the names Chris Cord (prime suspect), Carl Bross, or Jarold Evans?

"MkIVJ6" on this forum now owns 0854 BTW.


Paul M

Seem to remember that MkIVJ6 told us a while ago that he has used it on the road, along with some other lovely racing cars he owns (including a Ford Mk IV). It was I think on the "racing cars that would make a nice road car" thread, but of course in the continued absence of "search" (howl of anguish ) I can't point you to that thread.

Originally posted by Macca
Mmmmmmm.....................0858 is the car that was featured in a previous thread when it was seized by the American IRS against a tax bill and bought back by its owner Walter Medlin, maybe not for the first time.

It's been in original Can-Am spyder configuration since the end of 1967, and I believe in one ownership since the end of its racing career at the end of 1969..........

http://www.barchetta.../0858.330P4.htm

Paul

Thanks chapsd, it's all starting to sound like the tall story I feared it was .
The quoted period of 'ownership' was 1970-75 and that doesn't seem to fit , and the chassis number doesn't fit... and the real 0858 is a spyder unlike the car in the story....and....

Still, at least the Dean Martin jr bit is real and P4s have appeared on the streets so the romantic in me is ,in many ways, satisfied.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Originally posted by Bill Wagenblatt
[B]I remember an article written many years ago about Dino Martin driving a yellow 330P3 on the street. I think the article was in Motor trend magazine, cannot remember the year or author.

Originally posted by Macca
[B]Dean Martin Jr had c/n 0850, which was yellow;

Gentlemen.
It sounds like the car Simon was referring to, was indeed the ex-Ecurie Francorchamps 412P s/n #0850, which was owned by Dino Martin Jnr., and street-driven in LA in the early ‘70’s.

The car was featured in an article in Motor Trend magazine, as Bill correctly remembered – the November 1970 issue: pages 38-40 (and 90). I hope the scans below come out legibly.

The car’s bodywork was horribly chopped around to ‘improve cooling’, with extra scoops and ducts added everywhere, and the roof panel was cut out, but without converting the car into a ‘pukka' P4 spyder.
This resulted in the later need for a complete rebodying of the car – which I think took place, IIRC, during Paul Pappalardo’s ownership.









Note that on page 40, the magazine publishers have printed the small B&W photo of the car's interior in reverse. The car was of course R.H.D., and was not converted to L.H.D., for street use. It's funny how often you also see this same (presumptuous) mistake made in U.S. kit car magazine articles about P4 replicas. Most of the early Noble P4's that were built or imported to the States were R.H.D. (with right hand gearchanges) - as per the prototype.

I remember when $30,000 was a lot of money................



Paul M

Originally posted by Doug Nye
If you have some wonky, childlike psychological need for 'That Look' there are plenty of road tailored replicas around, some of which are pretty habitable and nice - unlike The Real Things.
DCN

Doug ....
And please remember the 11th commandment:

'Thou shalt not covet thy next-door neighbour's new Foreman P4 replica !'
Has Jerry taken you out for a spin in it yet ?;)

Not that you would ever be caught reading such a publication, of course, but JW's car is featured in the (current) Autumn 2005 issue of TotalKitCar magazine.

Photo below is copyright Neil Foreman http://www.nfauto.co.uk



By the way, speaking of 'caged birds', t*ssers, and all that, I understand that 'The Truth' about a certain other (occasionally) street-driven (and very expensive) P4 replica is about to come out into the open.

Maybe I ought to change my signature to: 'The Truth is OUT'.
It can be read by only a 'fortunate few' at present, sadly: http://www.p4replicabb.com

I may have mentioned before that Adrian Newey drives his original GT40 on the road, as well as racing it - while some other classic car owners have agreed with their wives not to race...........;)

And why would one not buy a real one rather than a replica if money isn't an issue - after all, if comfort is more important, there are modern 4-door saloons which will blow away something like a Ferrari 308..............yes, you could make a 308 faster and more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be to original spec.




Paul M

I f you want comfort and performance try here...www.ultimasports.co.uk

Apropos 0850; Paul Pappalardo told me at the Goodwood FoS in 1995, when he first brought it over, that apart from anything done during and after Dino Martin's ownership, it had been in a road crash and had needed major body repairs, including a new windscreen which he sourced in the USA and which he knew wasn't quite the same as the ones used by various people in the UK; so the top of the windscreen and roofline were noticeably wrong.

My photos of 0850 that year show differences in some aspects of the body to when it came back a couple of years later painted yellow; I suspect at the very least some body reshaping had been done, and maybe a complete rebody.

So how original does that make it, what with the big crash it suffered at Spa in 1967 which couldn't be repaired in time for Le Mans?

Oh, and according to an article in (IIRC) Classic Cars in about 1990, he used to drive it on the streets of Florida, as he did his 1960 Le Mans-winning 250TR.........is he to be grouped with others who do such things?


Paul M

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Paul Vestey ran the ex-Maranello Concessionaires '0854' on the road occasionally during his ownership here in England - I recall one trip under hot sun on Hampshire country roads vividly since the engine bay bulkhead behind our shoulders got so hot that - together with the effects of the sun blazing down through that big goldfish bowl windscreen - it was like being trapped in a grain dryer. Twenty miles = 10lbs of sweated-off weight loss. Thank God the car was in open spyder form, not roofed-in as a Berlinetta. Unless they were well piped-up with 'Donkey Dick' cool-air trunking these cars were appallingly ill-suited to public road use if one used any of their potential performance, quite apart (as thoroughbred road racers) from their other public road limitations. However, I will admit that the LM I ran briefly on the public road was perhaps even worse (although admittedly that was largely due to the fact that one did not dare slip the clutch, since even momentary slippage tended to burn it out, so every road junction or traffic light triggered a slam-bam-WHAMMMM!!!! re-start... : )

Unless you are a complete lookit-me airhead I can see NO good reason - beyond fleeting curiosity, or the enthusiasm of keen kids with money to burn - to abuse and demean these cars through public road use. If you have some wonky, childlike psychological need for 'That Look' there are plenty of road tailored replicas around, some of which are pretty habitable and nice - unlike The Real Things.

DCN

A few points. 0850 isn't a P4. As others have pointed out, it's a 412P. As for using them on the street I beg to differ. A sheet of NASA heat shielding, rad fans, and these cars make very nice Sunday drivers. There's an article about driving my MK-IV on the street in the recent Auto Afficionado. My ex Donohue T-70 Lola, my Mk-IV, my 412P, my P3/P4, and my 166s all have thousands of street miles on them. (My Lola has the most as I've owned it since 1972 about 40K) The Fall is a lovely time to drive these cars up to Vermont. You do have to be careful. I remember the time I encountered a snow storm while returning from a 300 mile trip in my MK-IV. It actually handled fine in the snow but I was glad to reach my garage before it got too deep.

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
My ex Donohue T-70 Lola, my Mk-IV, my 412P, my P3/P4, and my 166s all have thousands of street miles on them.

As does my Ford Fiesta

Originally posted by JohnS


As does my Ford Fiesta

Never had one of those but I did have a VW bug which I drove for 200K miles. Some of those miles I still remember. The one's that led to Woodstock for example.

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
As for using them on the street I beg to differ. A sheet of NASA heat shielding, rad fans, and these cars make very nice Sunday drivers.

I wrote that these cars "were appallingly ill-suited to public road use if one used any of their potential performance" - Olympic Freestyle Sunday Posing has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

DCN

Originally posted by Doug Nye


I wrote that these cars "were appallingly ill-suited to public road use if one used any of their potential performance" - Olympic Freestyle Sunday Posing has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

DCN

That statement is absurd. At speed they're much more suited to public road use than in bumper to bumper, and I've done both. I've driven my MK-IV on public roads for over an hour at speeds far in excess of what Mark and Bruce averaged at Le Mans. (Fully Legally at the FFQC in New Orleans) The only problem I had was at that speed as I had neglected to block off the radiator with cardboard it started to run a little cool so I had to slow down.

Here's what Mark Donohue had to say about my MK-IV:


"I have nothing but good feelings about the cars, too. I saw where some guy had a MK-IV for sale a while back, and I suppose that if I had a million dollars I might have bought it. They were very well built, considering all the production peices that went into them. They seemed so strong, so safe, so thoroughly tested, that nothing would break or fall off, no matter who put it together. At the time they were by far the highest performance cars I'd ever driven. They were the fastest cars on the track-except for the Chaparral, maybe- and yet they'd still last twenty-four hours. They were very durable, very powerful, very fast, and about as easy to drive as a big Cadillac."

Doug
You feel that the way I use my cars is silly which is fine. Why you feel it necessary to characterize the way I use them in a personally insulting way remains beyond me.

Diverting away from reality for a moment, if I'm permitted to do so, does anyone remember the film "A New Leaf", starring Walter Matthau? In this film, Walter played a very wealthy man who used a racing Ferrari as a road car. It gave him no end of bother and he often had to abandon it at the side of the road as it kept suffering oiled plugs and other maladies, through being subjected to the daily grind of New York traffic. I can't recall which type of Ferrari it was, and I haven't seen the film in years, but the car looked genuine enough.

I remember that film - it was a 275GTB......................but the director had overdubbed it with an American V8 to demonstrate, presumably to the American prime audience, that it was a high-performance car!


Matthau was an aging playboy, and when his money ran out he couldn't afford to get the Ferrari serviced, which is why it broke down.

He used it to drive to a banked oval circuit, IIRC, where he was driven round in a NASCAR, and to an airfield where he rode in the back of a 2-seat P51 Mustang, all the time looking incredibly bored!

Paul M

Originally posted by Macca


He used it to drive to a banked oval circuit, IIRC, where he was driven round in a NASCAR, and to an airfield where he rode in the back of a 2-seat P51 Mustang, all the time looking incredibly bored!

Walter had a real talent for looking like that! Great actor.Sadly missed

Simon Lewis

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Walter had a real talent for looking like that! Great actor.Sadly missed

Simon Lewis

Agreed. Superb in almost everything he did, especially "Charlie Varrick".

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
in a personally insulting way remains beyond me. [/B]

Pot...kettle...black comes to mind - as you well know !!

Originally posted by MKIVJ6


That statement is absurd. At speed they're much more suited to public road use than in bumper to bumper, and I've done both. I've driven my MK-IV on public roads for over an hour at speeds far in excess of what Mark and Bruce averaged at Le Mans. (Fully Legally at the FFQC in New Orleans) The only problem I had was at that speed as I had neglected to block off the radiator with cardboard it started to run a little cool so I had to slow down.

I love the dramatic contrast between everyday atmosphere and sudden extraordinarity (spelling) in these pics - thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by Vincenzo Lancia I love the dramatic contrast between everyday atmosphere and sudden extraordinarity (spelling) in these pics - thanks for sharing.

'Vincenzo' (from Denmark)
If you had seen them as many times as the rest of us, you would find them rather boring, I'm sorry to say. These 4 same photos (plus one other, now shown below) have been trotted out over and over again (ad nauseum).
That rear view shot of 412P #0854* (taken in July of this year, I believe), for instance, has already been used to illustrate similar claims in at least 5 seperate threads on FerrariChat already, that I know of.

.... and Yes, before anybody accuses me of exaggeration, I can provide URL links to every single post !

*No doubt conveniently 'staged', too !;)

You missed this one, Jim. Or is your copy ‘worn out’ ?



Did I suggest those photos were ‘staged’ ? Well – Hush my mouth !



Ooops ! Not quite lined up with the sign !

My day was actually going well until more of this pissing contest nonsense!

Originally posted by Vincenzo Lancia


I love the dramatic contrast between everyday atmosphere and sudden extraordinarity (spelling) in these pics - thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by P4Replica
These 4 same photos .... have been trotted out over and over again (ad nauseum).

.... And again: http://www.ferrarich...5&page=20&pp=20

Originally posted by P4Replica
That rear view shot of 412P #0854* (taken in July of this year, I believe), for instance, has already been used to illustrate similar claims in at least 5 seperate threads on FerrariChat already, that I know of.

Sorry .... My mistake. Make that 6 times ! http://www.ferrarich...7&postcount=382

Well, I for one haven't seen them before and I think they are incredibly fitting in this thread. I enjoy them thoroughly regardless if they are staged or not!!

Thanks for posting them, MKIVJ6

Originally posted by Jonas
Well, I for one haven't seen them before and I think they are incredibly fitting in this thread. I enjoy them thoroughly regardless if they are staged or not!!

Thanks for posting them, MKIVJ6

Thanks. As an aside none of them are staged. The 166s was photographed at the Giro di Sicilia.
The P 3/4 at the Giro di Sicilia as well. (I was diriving both times). The 412P en route to Lime Rock. The MK-IV on the Tappan Zee Bridge. The Duesey on the Pebble Beach tour and the Lola at the FFFQC.

Is there a hint of envy here by any chance? If I had a car like any of those posted and was able to take it for a spin on the highway, I would - depending on whether I still had my license. What a magnifcent blast.

Nick

Originally posted by nick stone
Is there a hint of envy here by any chance?

Originally posted by dretceterini
My day was actually going well until more of this pissing contest nonsense!

No, Nick - it's purely a personal thing, between Jim and myself. We take every possible opportunity to 'snipe' at each other.;)

I'm really content with my Noble P4 replica - I know exactly what it is, and I use it accordingly. Given Jim's seemingly limitless resources, I probably would have a very similar collection to his, myself, but the way I would personally choose to use them would be somewhat different. Apart from the Deusenberg, that is - I would 'lose' her, and find something less ostentatious for road driving - I'd probably seriously consider adding one of Jim Hall's new Chaparral 2E 'continuation cars' to 'my' collection. Though, like my P4 replica, I wouldn't try to pass it off as something else.

Originally posted by P4Replica
a very similar collection to his

Many of us do have similar collections, including the original boxes they came in.

Originally posted by dretceterini
My day was actually going well until more of this pissing contest nonsense!

My thoughts exactly.

Originally posted by JohnS


Many of us do have similar collections, including the original boxes they came in.

Trust me I know just how lucky I am. For those in the area I'll
be driving up to Lime Rock Next Sunday from NY for the Vintage Festival in 0854. Anyone attending please say hello.

This thread will be locked if there's one more post emanating from two certain people and their [somewhat pathetic] vendetta.

Advance apologies to all innocent parties...