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The RAC Rally - a national event sadly missed


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#1 RTH

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 11:51

The RAC round Britain Rally was a big high profile media event comparable to the British GP and many other sporting flagship annual events.

It took in South - East England , the Midlands, Yorkshire, Scotland, the north west , Wales, the Cotswolds.

It lasted 5 days and nights, there was a collosal entry often something like 200 cars it was the great rally, every rally enthusist wanted to be a part of in some way or other. There were 3 million spectators bigger than any UK sporting event. It had hourly radio coverage, every TV news bulletin had up to the minute progress reports , all the national newspapers were full of it.

The two wheel, rear wheel drive cars were spectacular to watch either on the ground or on TV , it made Rally drivers in to houshold names. Above all it was held in the depths of winter with deep snow, ice, rain, mud, fog, in widely differing terrain and backdrop scenery , next to no servicing was allowed , they never ran over the same piece of road twice, never returned to the same halt, it was an endurance event for cars and crews as well as a speed event .

It was something come November, I really looked forward to at a time when there was no other motor sport........It was a wonderful event.

Then it got in to the wrong hands, people who cared nothing for the sport of Rallying , people with no understanding at all of what made an exciting and interesting motor event . People who cared more about what they could charge people to park their cars and how well they could line their own pockets that an entertaining sports event.

It was comprehensively destroyed. Better really to have nothing than the pathetic pastiche that goes on in summertime in a tiny area of South Wales, which the public neither knows or cares about.

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#2 Mark A

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 12:02

Not quite got the same level of world class entries but the Lombard Rally is back.

http://www.endurorally.com/extra7.html

#3 Twin Window

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 12:04

This year's Rally GB has been cancelled following the death of Michael Park, co-driver to Markko Martin, in an accident on the Margam stage.

#4 RTH

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 12:26

Originally posted by Twin Window
This year's Rally GB has been cancelled following the death of Michael Park, co-driver to Markko Martin, in an accident on the Margam stage.


That is a truly terrible tragedy , I am desperately sorry to hear about that. Do we know the circumstances ?

There have been so many accidents on Worrld rallies of the most terrifying violence in recent years where despite comprehensive roll cages, cars have been left mangled twisted unrecognisable ball of metal where it was seemingly a miracle crews got out alive.

4 wheel drive and massive turbocharged engine power and torque bring speed and cornering power, that when something goes wrong the car will hit a solid object or the ground with the most fearsome force . I think it's long overdue the FIA did something meaningful with the technical regulations.

A terrible waste of a young life, and a desperately awful blow to his relatives left behind . What a sad day that this should have happened. Words do not really help at times like this .

#5 RTH

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 13:22

BBC reports the Peugeot 307 of Martin/Park left the road and hit a tree.

#6 MCH

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 14:16

Originally posted by RTH
4 wheel drive and massive turbocharged engine power and torque bring speed and cornering power, that when something goes wrong the car will hit a solid object or the ground with the most fearsome force . I think it's long overdue the FIA did something meaningful with the technical regulations.


I'm sorry but this comes over as bit hypocrit after reading your first post going on about the heroism of those events from long ago. Isn't the danger an important part of the whole rallying aura? As if no one ever had serious accidents or died back in those days. Would you have called the same out of touch chant for change you're making now? Rally has got to be one of the most dangerous sports around and it has been for the last 40 years or so.

People taking part are fully aware of this and consciously make the decision to take part.

The loss of Michael Park is extremely tragic indeed. Having heard from people who've met him he was a thoroughly likeable bloke.

#7 RTH

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 18:13

I think the difference between now and say pre- 1980 is that the forests are no safer now but the cars today have at least double the engine power more than double the traction with 4 wheel drive and intelligent differentials , the lightening quick full power- on semi-automatic gear changing , a vast range of electronic driver aids making the cars faster under all conditions and they take straights, bends and jumps at speeds unimaginable in the days of say a Mk 2 Escort which ruled rallying throught the 1970s. So by definition when control is lost now the impact and energy to be taken is vastly more violent and destructive even though the cars are stronger. The function of a motor sport governing body is to regulate these risks, of course all motorised sport is and always will bring with it the danger of death and of very serious injury its a question of degree.

Formula one does not need 1000 brake horse power and 180 mph cornering speeds to be an exciting and interesting entertaining sport for competitors and spectators - one third of all that would still be equally as good without such catastophic potential risk to life and limb - this is the job of the governing body to regulate all these matters. No one for instance wants to see a car launched in to a grandstand full of people again.

It is such a pity it seems to always take a tragedy before action gets taken - really in nearly all walks of life.

#8 Option1

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 18:37

So, technological development should have stopped in the 70s? Odd thought from someone posting using a computer.

Oh and I'd also suggest that while the forests may be no safer the cars, while faster, are built to significantly higher safety standards than the MkII Escort.

Neil

#9 Rob Ryder

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 19:26

A bit of an aside, but I was impressed with Seb Loeb's gesture after the sad death of Michael Park. He deliberately incurred a 2 minute penalty which dropped him from 1st to 3rd, meaning that he did not clinch the World Championship at the event.

His comment: "I did not want to benefit from this sad event, and the withdrawal of Markus (Gronholm)."

Rare feelings in current motorsport...
Rob

#10 RS2000

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 20:40

Originally posted by RTH
I think the difference between now and say pre- 1980 is that the forests are no safer now but the cars today have at least double the engine power more than double the traction with 4 wheel drive and intelligent differentials


Er...No... Just over 300bhp now vs about 250bhp? (and of course 500bhp in 1986).
From what I have seen, this incident could just as easily have happened in the70s (when these particular forests were not actually in use for rallying). I have gone off in these Rosolven/Rheola/Margam forests on the RAC Rally and ended up on the edge of a vertical drop. I have driven them in thick fog on the RAC before the days of pace notes on that event and with local spectators changing over the junction numbers. I consider them the most dangerous of all UK forest stages - but not for what appears to be the sole reason for the seriousness of this incident (a very large tree right next to the track).

#11 David Birchall

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 20:44

Just to cheer this thread up a bit, my Aston DB2 competed in the 1954 Rac Rally but without conspicuous success.... Yesterday I ran her in a bit of a rally: The "All British" run to Whistler, home to be of the Winter Olympics in 2010. The road to Whistler is probably known to many of you without your realising it; it is used for many still and moving promotional shots of new cars. Cliffs above, a narrow winding road and cliffs down to the ocean-spectacular on a nice day like yesterday but deadly when icy or when part of the cliff face decides to join the traffic pattern. :eek:
Years ago while waiting for a traffic jam to clear on this road friends edged forward in their car, the car behind pulled forward into the space vacated by them and a ten ton boulder crashed onto the car killing the occupants. The road is being seriously modified for the Olympics....
However it still retains enough of its old character to make for a great day yesterday even if I did revert to racer mode at one point and "shut the door" on one innocent motorist in the heat of the moment. :blush:
David B

#12 RS2000

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 20:44

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
A bit of an aside, but I was impressed with Seb Loeb's gesture after the sad death of Michael Park. He deliberately incurred a 2 minute penalty which dropped him from 1st to 3rd, meaning that he did not clinch the World Championship at the event.

His comment: "I did not want to benefit from this sad event, and the withdrawal of Markus (Gronholm)."

Rare feelings in current motorsport...
Rob


Although cynics elsewhere are saying Citroen didn't want to lose the publicity opportunity of celebrating the championship win. In such sad circumstances, let's just agree with your first assessment.

#13 Mark A

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 20:45

Originally posted by RTH
I think the difference between now and say pre- 1980 is that the forests are no safer now but the cars today have at least double the engine power more than double the traction with 4 wheel drive and intelligent differentials , the lightening quick full power- on semi-automatic gear changing , a vast range of electronic driver aids making the cars faster under all conditions and they take straights, bends and jumps at speeds unimaginable in the days of say a Mk 2 Escort which ruled rallying throught the 1970s. So by definition when control is lost now the impact and energy to be taken is vastly more violent and destructive even though the cars are stronger. The function of a motor sport governing body is to regulate these risks, of course all motorised sport is and always will bring with it the danger of death and of very serious injury its a question of degree.

Formula one does not need 1000 brake horse power and 180 mph cornering speeds to be an exciting and interesting entertaining sport for competitors and spectators - one third of all that would still be equally as good without such catastophic potential risk to life and limb - this is the job of the governing body to regulate all these matters. No one for instance wants to see a car launched in to a grandstand full of people again.

It is such a pity it seems to always take a tragedy before action gets taken - really in nearly all walks of life.



I think this is going way off topic for TNF but I think most of what you have written is wrong.

With technological advances everything will always end up being quicker, however the horsepower comments are way off. WRC cars currently have 300bhp, some of the latter Mk2 Escorts were very close, the Grp B stuff had loads more horsepower.
Th biggest advances are in suspension, transmissons and differentials, and more than anything else tyres. This means the cars have more grip which makes for higher cornering speeds but also better braking ability.
Yes the cars are going faster, but as you point out the cars are a lot stronger, just look at a current WRC car and compare it with a Mk2 Escort, I think you will be safer in a WRC car at a much higher speed than in a 70's rally car at a lower speed.

Also how do you legislate for hitting a tree at just the wrong angle. Just look at the numerous accidents that always happen in Rallying including some huge shunts from Colin McRae where he has hit trees etc, with little injury.

You complain about the demise of the RAC as it used to be, a 4 day event with little or no sleep for the drivers (a lot of whom used to pop a few pills to keep them awake), not exactly safe in any car, while I also dislike the new WRC format, there is no denying it's a safer way to run an event and allows spectators more chance of seeing the cars more than once a day.

Your posts are very contradictory so I really struggle to understand what you want the British round or the World Rally Championship to be. Do you want a 5 day event with slow cars, if so look at my previous post in this thread, or do you want to see a decent range of cars competing at decent speeds, if so what do you think can be done to stop accidents that the one which unfortunatly took the life of Michael Park today, the only way to stop accidents like that is to stop forest rallying, however even tarmac events have things like lamp-posts so I guess that's out as well, so the only thing left is rallying on race circuits. Wonder if we should call that racing!

I have competing in Historic Rallying for a number of years (less recently) and I enjoy Forest events more than any other and in cars with a lot less safety gear than a WRC, it is, IMHO a much more dangerous event, at much lower speeds.

#14 Twin Window

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 21:13

To get back a little more on topic too, the old format of a late-November event held over five days (and a lot of the night most days...) was truly a test of stamina. And not just for the driver pairing, but for the service crew too!

I was lucky to have done two such events in the 1980s; one in the motorhome and one in a service barge. Late nights, terrible weather, huge mileage, speeding tickes, fried food, sleep deprivation to the point of hallucination... but it was, nevertheless, great fun!














(Ok; 5am, pitch black on the top of a mountain, snow being driven horizontally, and you've set fire to your jacket on the Primus in the van's cab isn't too great a memory, but still...)

#15 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 01:28

Felt a little bit of déjà vu here...

Yes, found it.

Post 72, 75...

#16 RTH

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 07:32

Anyone saying the 2005 car has no more engine power or traction than a 1979 car is deluding themselves. Rally spec BDAs didn't ever have 250 BHP - only on the tuners brochure. The governing body's intention when the current rules started was that they should develope about 300 BHP the reality today is rather different, engine power is not scrutineered. What has been said above then is that if the turbocharger was taken off the present cars the drivers would not notice a difference - well that just isn't true is it?

Driver safety is not just about the stiffness of the shell, the harder , faster, and more force you hit a tree , even if the metalwork does not actually strike the person those forces are transmitted by the belts on to the torso, the neck, the spine, and the brain measured at 50G or more. No one is suggesting we should go back to weaker car structures or less safety equipment that's an obvious nonsense.
To be entertaining I do not believe rallying must have these levels of power and grip and to suggest that is Luddite is both insulting and wrong.

I did not at any point say I wanted the event to return to 4 1/2 days without sleep I said that is how it used to be , and that I believed the format now had swung so far away from the orgininal and popular "Round Britain Rally " concept, to something that was massively devalued in comparison.

#17 MonzaDriver

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 09:36

Originally posted by RTH
Then it got in to the wrong hands, people who cared nothing for the sport of Rallying , people with no understanding at all of what made an exciting and interesting motor event . People who cared more about what they could charge people to park their cars and how well they could line their own pockets that an entertaining sports event.

It was comprehensively destroyed. Better really to have nothing than the pathetic pastiche that goes on in summertime in a tiny area of South Wales, which the public neither knows or cares about.



Yes RTH, Yes to all your post.
All along the years they found a new sistem to stole and ruin everything.
The reduction of the kilometers, and stages all along the years, it'a only in advantage
of the great constructors.

I am Italian and I can assure you that the RAC, The rally of Britain,
have had a huge aurea and almost a legend also here.

Better nothing.............
MonzaDriver.

#18 MichaelJP

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 11:21

I think the title of this post has it right - the RAC Rally was a truly National event, and lots of people up and down the country went to their own local bit of the rally.

The requirement for the modern WRC round to be "clover-leaf" in format, with the end of each day having a return to a central base rules out any possibility of the rally travelling round the country - that is the real shame.

What's more, the clover-leaf format only really benefits the competitors, the media, and the organisers. For the spectator, it is far worse, not least because the compact format enables the organisers to restrict and control entry to the stages. It's impossible to "follow the rally" any more in true bobble-hatted fashion.

#19 mercw125

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 11:54

I have to agree with Richard.

I spent many a happy hour back in the 70's and 80's walking around forests in driving rain , blizzards just to get into a spot to see a rally car driven full chat and the getting back into a car to drive onto another stage.

I'm not too sure however that many of the drivers in those days "popped pills" to get them through the events - it was mostly done on adrenalin.

I started to take my young son to Donington many years ago to get him "blooded" onto the sport and he loved it. The year I decided to take him into the forests "Rally GB" moved to Wales and started to charge a ridiculous amount just to shepherd you into a basin somewhere.

I have hoped year after year that the rally would move from Wales back into other parts of the UK but it seems that they have found a happy medium being based in Wales and being able to charge what are the equivalent of GP prices to look at cars.

I have started to take my young sons now to local events (like the Bulldog rally) so they can see cars being driven at competetive speeds at a reasonable cost but I guess we have to accept that time has moved on and that drivers today don't want to spend nights out driving round forests , having to drive many miles just to get to a stage and that the manufacturers that spend a lot of coin on developing these cars need to keep their service crews in one place to help keep costs down.

It is a different world we live in today and I suppose we have to accept it - even if we don't like it.

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#20 BRG

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 12:20

I was a faithful follower of the RAC Rally for many years – we would try to take in 4 or 5 stages every day, often going out early for the first stage of the day and returning to our hotel for breakfast. It was terrifically exciting and we had some great times.

But that was then. That sort of event is simply no longer practical. One of the guys I used to follow the RAC with was involved from the outset in the new R(oger) A(lbert) C(lark) Rally run for the first time last year, which sought to revive the spirit and style of the old RAC. I even helped a little to locate the routes and scheduled of RACs of the 1970’s and 80s for them.

But they found that modern day safety requirements (ambulances and rally safety crews on each stage and so on) make the classic RAC format of 40-50 stages, some as short as 2 or 3 miles, financial and logistically impractical. The cost of the stages would also be a problem, as Forestry Enterprise charging these days favours re-using stages, which the classic RAC rarely did. As a result the new ‘RAC’, although covering more ground and more venues over a longer period than the current WRC round is still not really the same as in the good old days. To run a genuine classic RAC today would cost a fortune and hardly anyone would be able or prepared to pay the massive entry fee.

The modern format is predicated on two things – media coverage and safety – and whilst the fans might be happy to do without the media, the manufacturers and sponsors probably wouldn’t. And who is going to volunteer to roll back safety rules? Especially after yesterday’s tragic loss of Michael Parks.

I agree that the FIA could and should relieve some of their over-regulations to allow more local character to events, which are in danger of being ‘Tilked’ into a standard form. But there will never be a return to the days of the classic RAC (or 1000 Lakes, or Monte Carlo or Safari or whatever) anymore than GP racing will return to the Nordschliefe, Rheims or the full Spa circuit.

#21 RS2000

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 19:25

There's a lot of nonsense above - and a lot of fact (but we all know the facts anyway: we cant go back).
The people who built BDGs for the works etc didnt need to advertise power outputs so didnt! 260bhp for final tarmac engines is about right and 245 for average forest. Dont confuse with the users who had to worry about time between rebuilds. Surely you only have to listen to flat sounding, restricted WRC cars to know just over 300 is about it?

Those of us who did a lot of classic RACs know what went on and that it couldn't in today's nanny state - which is why so-called "Enduro" rallies (despite the excellent vehicle spec) have no place either in modern society.

Now lets have some questions about classic RAC Rallies, not a lot of rose-tinted retro wish lists - or I'll resurect the thread that mentioned drug taking as a necessary part of the "good old days" (I see Paddy Hopkirk has been honest about it in his recent book!).

#22 RTH

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 07:21

The rally engines were not the BDG and BDX spec in Formula 2 cars with full race camshafts developing all their power at 10,000rpm.In those days the cars had to do very long road mileages through towns and villages at 30 MPH. In the main the Ford rally engines were no bigger than 1850 not BDGs at all. In the early '70s Cosworth supplied BDB engines of 1700cc to the Works team and even Cosworth only claimed 200 BHP for them (the standard RS1800 road car developed just 118 BHP but with slightly more torque than the standard 1600 BDA) . In the London to Mexico in 1970 the factory Ford team even fitted pushrod engines because they were so worried about durability and reliability and still managed to win a very high profile event with iron cross flows.

You can't seriously believe a current state of the art 2005 WRC 2 litre turbo charged engine, with variable valve timing comprehensively mapped ignition and electronic fuel injection, giving power right across the rev range, only produces 300 BHP . 20 years ago 550 BHP from a Sierra Cosworth was nothing special in race spec, even with air restrictors 300 is way out of date . If you have seen the present cars in action its obvious to anyone they do not have the same power output as a 26 year old Mk 2 Escort. Engine note doesn't tell you anything about power and especially torque output, so useful in a rally car.

#23 BRG

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 12:50

Originally posted by RTH
You can't seriously believe a current state of the art 2005 WRC 2 litre turbo chargesd engine only produces 300 BHP . 20 years ago 550 BHP from a Sierra Cosworth was nothing special, even with air restrictors

No, I don't believe 300bhp and it is interesting that (I think) Citroen in their Wales Rally GB press release admitted to 325bhp at 5, 250rpm. I would personally estimate something around 350bhp - based on relative performances - for a typical WRC engine but no more.

With a 34mm restrictor, you simply can't produce any more power. The laws of physics haven't changed and you can still only stuff so much air through a small hole. All the clever elctronics and whatever can't change that. Those Sierras you mention were I think circuit racers which did not use the FIA WRC restrictor. What gives the modern WRC it's speed is the highly developed suspension, the active transmission and the tyres. These cars have been beating the times set by the old unlimited Group B cars for some years now. Yet the Gp B had far more power and a much lower minimum weight limit, but very primitive passive 4WD systems.

Sadly, it is that sophistication that has just cost Michael Park his life. The need to drive these cars absolutely on the limit and on the racing line, even on gravel, to extract the best from them means that when they do get it wrong, it is more likely to be a big incident.

#24 MichaelJP

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 13:11

Originally posted by BRG
Sadly, it is that sophistication that has just cost Michael Park his life. The need to drive these cars absolutely on the limit and on the racing line, even on gravel, to extract the best from them means that when they do get it wrong, it is more likely to be a big incident.


Maybe another contributory factor is the current "sprint" rally format, where the total special stage mileage is so much shorter than it used to be, encourages on-the-limit driving everywhere, rather than the more measured approach necessary for a longer format?

#25 Darren Galpin

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 13:18

I don't think so. Before the Safari Rally was dropped from the WRC, it was still becoming a sprint despite the car-breaking conditions and length.

#26 RTH

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:15

Well the Cardiff to Swansea Welsh Rally started today........ a pale shadow of that brilliant national RAC Round Britain Rally that dominated Radio TV and Press coverage in the 50s., 60s, 70s, and eighties. 2000 miles day and night for 4 1/2 days that had the nation gripped every November.

A rally event nearly everyone could go and see pass by as it went around the country. Nowadays they care more about admission and charging for car parking than putting on a good event ...so the media is not interested at all, and who can blame them.

Its very sadly missed by me.

If you want to hear that music which played over the nightly reports on BBC 2 by William Wollard and seemed to fit the action so well it was the instrumental track from this record




Opening sequence from the '91 RAC Rally report roundup.....

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=

#27 frogeye59

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:54

Originally posted by RTH
Well the Cardiff to Swansea Welsh Rally started today........ a pale shadow of that brilliant national RAC Round Britain Rally that dominated Radio TV and Press coverage in the 50s., 60s, 70s, and eighties.

Its very sadly missed by me.

If you want to hear that music which played over the nightly reports on BBC 2 by William Wollard and seemed to fit the action so well it was the instrumental track from this record


With you there Richard, sadly missed.

A proper test of man and motor, usually with a huge and diverse field, attracting massive crowds the length and breadth of the country.....in fact 3 countries, England Scotland and Wales.

I laughed out loud a few weeks ago when stages of a rally (turkey ?) were cancelled because it had rained......... I wonder what Mikkola, Makinen, Waldegard, McRae, Brookes, Fall, Vatenan and the like would have made of that.....!!!!

The longest test in the current championship is 30+ Kilometers, the hero's of old would regularly tackle 30+ miles and longer just on the one rally alone....often in the dark!!!

#28 RTH

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 08:31

It's 30 years ago ........1976 Roger Clark in an Escort and Sandro Munari in a Stratos !.....................

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=


Or 1974 and those MK 1 Escorts................. look at the crowds in the forests !

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=



Or..................if you are in any doubt about how exciting rallying was with 2 wheel drive and 200 BHP ...........

Tony Mason recounting the 1972 RAC Rally ................

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=

#29 FrankB

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 09:17

I am not a huge fan of rallying and have never followed it all that closely, but around the middle of November at one time you couldn't help but be aware of the fact that the RAC Rally was about to happen. For several years I would always get to see at least one stage.

Strangely enough, it was only yesterday evening that I mentioned to my wife that I hadn't seen any mention at all this year of even a very pale imitation of the RAC Rally as it used to be... and now I find this thread.

As mentioned in many of the preceding posts the hourly updates on radio and the evening summary of the day's competition really kept an exciting event well and truly in the public's gaze. I wonder how well this weekend's sports programmes will cover Wales Rally GB?

#30 frogeye59

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 10:02

Originally posted by FrankB

As mentioned in many of the preceding posts the hourly updates on radio and the evening summary of the day's competition really kept an exciting event well and truly in the public's gaze. I wonder how well this weekend's sports programmes will cover Wales Rally GB?


I'm guessing you will probably have to look very hard for any coverage other than the official round up at around 4pm Sunday, gone are the days of exciting updates and live stages.


Great Clips RTH, brings the memories flooding back, the roar of the Stratos was great. In the forests you knew one was on its way long before its arrival at "your" corner, generally missing the rear bodywork.

I'm sorely tempted by the DVD's on offer at http://www.rallyfilmsreloaded.co.uk/

#31 RTH

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 12:17

Originally posted by frogeye59


................ brings the memories flooding back, the roar of the Stratos was great. In the forests you knew one was on its way long before its arrival at "your" corner, generally missing the rear bodywork.


More of the amazing Stratos in the '70s

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=

Then there was the 6R4 from 21 years ago



#32 FrankB

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 14:25

Originally posted by frogeye59

...the roar of the Stratos was great. In the forests you knew one was on its way long before its arrival at "your" corner, generally missing the rear bodywork.


It used to go through my mind at the time... why did they bother putting a new rear body on to the car, because it would almost certainly be lost very soon after the start of the next stage?

#33 frogeye59

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 17:40

Originally posted by FrankB


It used to go through my mind at the time... why did they bother putting a new rear body on to the car, because it would almost certainly be lost very soon after the start of the next stage?


It has crossed my mind more than once that perhaps it was a neat way of reducing wieght and keeping things cool around the ferrari mill......

#34 Paul Butler

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 21:07

Originally posted by RTH
It's 30 years ago ........1976 Roger Clark in an Escort and Sandro Munari in a Stratos !.....................

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=


Or 1974 and those MK 1 Escorts................. look at the crowds in the forests !

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=



Or..................if you are in any doubt about how exciting rallying was with 2 wheel drive and 200 BHP ...........

Tony Mason recounting the 1972 RAC Rally ................

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=


What fantastic footage especially the last bit - fair made me nostalgic for t'good old days when Rallying involved a lot of driving , a lot of naughty substances and some damn good fun! The competitors enjoyed it as well I believe!

#35 David Birchall

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 01:00

My Aston DB2 took part in the 1954 RAC Rally as mentioned previously on TNF and here is a photo of it taken during the event driven by first owner Michalkiewicz. But the following photo was taken later - the front bumperettes are removed and the car has a different rally plate. What rally is this? I have no information with the photo:

Posted Image

Posted Image

#36 RTH

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 08:05

Guess at the first ....either the Derbyshire peak district or Scotland, 2nd picture could almost be anywhere, gravel roads Forrestry Commission ? No much to go on unless its very familiar to anyone but likely to be very changed since the picture was taken.

#37 frogeye59

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:22

Originally posted by David Birchall
My Aston DB2 took part in the 1954 RAC Rally as mentioned previously on TNF and here is a photo of it taken during the event driven by first owner Michalkiewicz. But the following photo was taken later - the front bumperettes are removed and the car has a different rally plate. What rally is this? I have no information with the photo:

Posted Image

Posted Image


The Plate on the second photo is a little blurred when you zoom in, however the shapes and layout are very similar to these two plates from Scottish Rally's

This is closest
Posted Image

or
As above but with the left hand logo from this one perhaps.
Posted Image

What do you think ????

Would you know what year the lower one is taken ?

#38 David Birchall

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 16:47

Thanks Frogeye59. That looks like it, right down to the mounting holes in the corners of the plate.
In 1955 He traded this car in on an DB2/4 so it would have to be 54 or 55.

#39 frogeye59

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 17:28

Just watched the TV footage of this years "Wales Rally GB"...is it me or was there a severe lack of spectators over even recent years ????

Going back to the 70's and 80's it was widely accepted to be the biggest sporting event in the world, drawing 4/5 million people into the forests and "mickey mouse" stages around the country.

I accept that moden rallying is all about compact and minimum stage miles...however the powers that be really need to look into this, or it will die and be replaced by somewhere more exciting.

Yorkshire hopefully..... :lol:

Have to agree again with Richard, but a shadow of the RAC Rally's of our youth.

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#40 frogeye59

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 17:31

Originally posted by David Birchall
Thanks Frogeye59. That looks like it, right down to the mounting holes in the corners of the plate.
In 1955 He traded this car in on an DB2/4 so it would have to be 54 or 55.


The top plate pictured is marked as from '54 so it would fit. :up:

David

#41 RTH

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 18:23

Originally posted by frogeye59
Just watched the TV footage of this years "Wales Rally GB"...is it me or was there a severe lack of spectators over even recent years ????

Going back to the 70's and 80's it was widely accepted to be the biggest sporting event in the world, drawing 4/5 million people into the forests and "mickey mouse" stages around the country.

I accept that moden rallying is all about compact and minimum stage miles...however the powers that be really need to look into this, or it will die and be replaced by somewhere more exciting.

Yorkshire hopefully..... :lol:

Have to agree again with Richard, but a shadow of the RAC Rally's of our youth.


I watched it myself this afternoon, its just another bland nothing of an event , they now all look the same , looks like its just the same half a dozen cars on the same bit of gravel and it might just be anywhere in the world . featureless and not worth watching at all .........and I don't suppose many were .

I would not be the least bit surprised if this along with F1 racing becomes a casualty of the changes that will come to programmes at ITV with the arrival of Michael Grade.

The racing and rally organisers only have themselves to blame for degrading all these events over a long period to the point where the magic is all gone.

#42 JSF

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 18:39

Originally posted by frogeye59
Just watched the TV footage of this years "Wales Rally GB"...is it me or was there a severe lack of spectators over even recent years ????


That was and is the plan, the less spectators, the less there are problems with Health and Safety and traffic management.

It makes me very sad to see what has become of the WRC, i started spectating and marshalling on the RAC some 24 years ago when i was first old enough to get to the events and remember following the event for all 5 days sleeping in my car, travelling into scotland one day, keilder and the lakes the next, Wales the next, it was a real adventure enjoyed by many thousands like me.

I have travelled to Finland, Greece, Cyprus, Monte Carlo, Spain, Canada, USA many times following or competing in Rallying and the state the WRC is now in i didnt bother to go as far as South Wales for the last two years, untill 2005 i had been at every RAC/Rally GB since i was physically able.

The world has changed, it's so risk averse now we wont ever see the rallies of our youth return to what they were, progress? i dont think so.

#43 sterling49

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 19:22

Originally posted by RTH


I watched it myself this afternoon, its just another bland nothing of an event , they now all look the same , looks like its just the same half a dozen cars on the same bit of gravel and it might just be anywhere in the world . featureless and not worth watching at all .........and I don't suppose many were .

I would not be the least bit surprised if this along with F1 racing becomes a casualty of the changes that will come to programmes at ITV with the arrival of Michael Grade.

The racing and rally organisers only have themselves to blame for degrading all these events over a long period to the point where the magic is all gone.


I do not even bother watching.......compared to the '60's and up to, say the early '80's, they were great events, four wheel drive, TV convenience and huge budgets and "Walter Mitty" rules have diluted, what was once a great sport into a Mickey Mouse event......they even changed the date of the East African Safari so that they could get the running of it away from the rainy season.................... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


I remember when only 7 cars finished in that event because of the rain,,,,(1965/6?).

#44 David Birchall

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 22:47

Originally posted by frogeye59


The top plate pictured is marked as from '54 so it would fit. :up:

David


Wonderful! Thanks Froggy :up: