3 Maseratis in the grid!!!!!
3 Maseratis in one picture... three!
Started by
Repco von Brabham
, Oct 12 2005 23:36
48 replies to this topic
#1
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 12 October 2005 - 23:36
Rafaela 500 Milles of 1968:
3 Maseratis in the grid!!!!!
3 Maseratis in the grid!!!!!
#3
Kvadrat
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:09
What's special in 3 Maseratis in one picture? You can find 10 or 15 Maseratis in Italian events.
#4
David McKinney
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 05:04
What's special, Vladimir, is that the Maseratis are old single-seaters, in Argentina, in 1968
I like to think I know quite a lot about this subject, but must say I' shocked to think there were three cars racing in Argentina as late as that
Can you identify them, Repco?
I like to think I know quite a lot about this subject, but must say I' shocked to think there were three cars racing in Argentina as late as that
Can you identify them, Repco?
#6
Scribe06
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 06:08
I am with David on this, especially since it would be interesting to see which ones that they are supposed to be.... Barrie?
#7
Bonde
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 09:18
Time Warp!And what is that
offset front-engined single seater? A rebodied sports car?Thanks for sharing that, Rep!
I find those massive, macho, late sixties-early seventies Argentinian single seater specials absolutely fascinating - for me it's like something from a different planet. "Hey, Alberto, let's make some F1 cars from the parts bin in old Antinio's pampas garage". "Bueno" - Saw - weld -bolt - presto!
#8
Rob29
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 09:54
I guess the ones towards the rear.Photo is not very clear on my screen ,look more like Ferraris to me. Still I did not know that such cars were still racing in 1968 with the modern looking ones,and apparently competitive on an oval?Originally posted by Scribe06
I am with David on this, especially since it would be interesting to see which ones that they are supposed to be.... Barrie?
#9
Scribe06
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 10:31
Originally posted by Rob29
I guess the ones towards the rear.Photo is not very clear on my screen ,look more like Ferraris to me. Still I did not know that such cars were still racing in 1968 with the modern looking ones,and apparently competitive on an oval?
As is readily apparent, racing in Argentina during this period was quite different in many aspects from that of North America and Europe. There were no end of interesting and fascinating specials created from the Ferrari and Maserati chassis that found their way to Argentina during the 50s and early 60s. I would be interested to know how competitive these cars were at Rafaela. It certainly looks unlike most grids one would expect at that time elsewhere, the Roadsters finally being relegated from the scene in the USA and such machines now absent from the grids in Europe except for the developing historic scene.
Fascinating photograph.
#10
petefenelon
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:43
Originally posted by Bonde
And what is that
Thanks for sharing that, Rep!
I find those massive, macho, late sixties-early seventies Argentinian single seater specials absolutely fascinating - for me it's like something from a different planet. "Hey, Alberto, let's make some F1 cars from the parts bin in old Antinio's pampas garage". "Bueno" - Saw - weld -bolt - presto!
Agreed - MN cars are sort of surreal, sort of frightening and VERY fascinating. There needs to be a good English-language history of that series.
#11
humphries
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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:07
Nice photo.
What is most surprising is that one of the old Maseratis finished third, albeit seven laps down on the winner. The driver was Luis Di Palma and he was at the wheel of what was once a 4CLT/48. This car I think still belonged to Omar Almeida who had driven it off and on earlier in the season and years previously. These 4CLs and 4CLTs were chopped about in the manner of the sorcerer's apprentice and probably there will be a glut of them for sale one day. Almeida raced his new-fangled rear-engined Bravi-Tornado but only managed 7th.
The off-set single-seater was a Ram-San with a Tornado engine but was known, affectionately, as the "Parnelli Jones Special"! Driven by Omar Cuvertino it finished 4th.
When the chaps who did "Alfa Romeo Argentina" tackle the Maseratis and Ferraris in the same way I'll be in the queue.
There were two Ferraris, or Ferrari-based cars, in the1968 Rafaela 500 as spotted.
John
What is most surprising is that one of the old Maseratis finished third, albeit seven laps down on the winner. The driver was Luis Di Palma and he was at the wheel of what was once a 4CLT/48. This car I think still belonged to Omar Almeida who had driven it off and on earlier in the season and years previously. These 4CLs and 4CLTs were chopped about in the manner of the sorcerer's apprentice and probably there will be a glut of them for sale one day. Almeida raced his new-fangled rear-engined Bravi-Tornado but only managed 7th.
The off-set single-seater was a Ram-San with a Tornado engine but was known, affectionately, as the "Parnelli Jones Special"! Driven by Omar Cuvertino it finished 4th.
When the chaps who did "Alfa Romeo Argentina" tackle the Maseratis and Ferraris in the same way I'll be in the queue.
There were two Ferraris, or Ferrari-based cars, in the1968 Rafaela 500 as spotted.
John
#12
Pablo Vignone
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Posted 14 October 2005 - 00:27
¿Ram-San or Ramseyer?
Maybe I will write that story some time... I watched the very last Mecánica Argentina Formula 1 race from the grandstands, as Repco was in the pits doing his F-2 stuff... Sad day for him (no offenses, Enrique!)
Maybe I will write that story some time... I watched the very last Mecánica Argentina Formula 1 race from the grandstands, as Repco was in the pits doing his F-2 stuff... Sad day for him (no offenses, Enrique!)
#13
humphries
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Posted 14 October 2005 - 09:23
Pablo
Ram-San or Ramseyer? Don't know but the former description was used in the "Corsa" report. Like many TNFers fed up with pot-boiling the lowdown on an unusual car would be like a breath of fresh air.
John
Ram-San or Ramseyer? Don't know but the former description was used in the "Corsa" report. Like many TNFers fed up with pot-boiling the lowdown on an unusual car would be like a breath of fresh air.
John
#14
Kanzo
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Posted 14 October 2005 - 11:35
Hmm... looks to me like the GPL version of Rafaela is running backwards... 
#15
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 14 October 2005 - 23:08
Originally posted by David McKinney
Can you identify them, Repco?
- Luis Di Palma - Maserati A6GCM-Tornado
- Jorge Cupeiro - Maserati A6GCM- Chevrolet 6 cilynders
- Tulio Riva - - Maserati 4CLT-Tornado.
Luis Di Palma., look the front suspension., she are of Bergantin car (because was much better).
#16
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 14 October 2005 - 23:28
Originally posted by humphries
The off-set single-seater was a Ram-San with a Tornado engine but was known, affectionately, as the "Parnelli Jones Special"! Driven by Omar Cuvertino it finished 4th.
A good pic of this bizarre car.. (founded by Eduardo).
#17
Carter Hendricks
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Posted 15 October 2005 - 05:50
Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
- Luis Di Palma - Maserati A6GCM-Tornado
- Jorge Cupeiro - Maserati A6GCM- Chevrolet 6 cilynders
- Tulio Riva - - Maserati 4CLT-Tornado.
Luis Di Palma., look the front suspension., she are of Bergantin car (because was much better).
Which is Alfa Romeo 1900 pattern, I believe.
--Carter
#18
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 16 October 2005 - 19:59
And now, the grid of Rafaela 500 but is the 1969 edition:
The cars behind the Pace-Car.., only are two Maseratis this time..
The cars behind the Pace-Car.., only are two Maseratis this time..
#19
humphries
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 12:24
Rep
Another new interesting photo but I can only see one Maserati - Rolando Sotro's?
John
Another new interesting photo but I can only see one Maserati - Rolando Sotro's?
John
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#20
David McKinney
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 12:54
I have Carlos Ternengo as a Maserati driver in this race
Interesting the difference a year makes in terms of the front-engined/rear-engined mix - no doubt as a result of Coepllo's domination of the 1968 championship in the Cooper-Tornado
Interesting the difference a year makes in terms of the front-engined/rear-engined mix - no doubt as a result of Coepllo's domination of the 1968 championship in the Cooper-Tornado
#21
humphries
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 13:40
David
Yup, Ternengo was in a Maserati-based car, the same one as used by Di Palma the year before. He was quickest of the front-engined cars in practice but he is out of shot down on the inside I think. Ternengo finished 5th in 1969 but some 23 laps down on the winner. The 500 at Rafaela was always a race of attrition.
As our resident 250F expert do you know the histories of the A6GCMs? I always had the impression they were rare as they were recycled a couple of times and that there wasn't actually that many of them. I am surprised two cars were the basis of MN racers all those years later.
John
Yup, Ternengo was in a Maserati-based car, the same one as used by Di Palma the year before. He was quickest of the front-engined cars in practice but he is out of shot down on the inside I think. Ternengo finished 5th in 1969 but some 23 laps down on the winner. The 500 at Rafaela was always a race of attrition.
As our resident 250F expert do you know the histories of the A6GCMs? I always had the impression they were rare as they were recycled a couple of times and that there wasn't actually that many of them. I am surprised two cars were the basis of MN racers all those years later.
John
#22
David McKinney
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 14:22
I'm not so hot on A6GCMs, but Barrie Hobkirk is 
Cue Barrie
Cue Barrie
#23
BRG
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 15:26
The references that I have checked both claim this to have been an anti-clockwise oval(ish) track, but both the photos seem to indicate the opposite?Originally posted by Kanzo
Hmm... looks to me like the GPL version of Rafaela is running backwards...
#24
humphries
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 18:10
From photos in Corsa it was certainly clockwise in 1968 and 1969.
#25
Bob Riebe
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Posted 17 October 2005 - 19:27
Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
- Luis Di Palma - Maserati A6GCM-Tornado
- Jorge Cupeiro - Maserati A6GCM- Chevrolet 6 cilynders
- Tulio Riva - - Maserati 4CLT-Tornado.
Luis Di Palma., look the front suspension., she are of Bergantin car (because was much better).
It would have been incredible to have seen this, these cars on some of the old dirt track champ car races.
God bless Argentina,
Bob
#26
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 18 October 2005 - 23:31
Originally posted by Bob Riebe
It would have been incredible to have seen this, these cars on some of the old dirt track champ car races.
God bless Argentina,
Bob
Bob:
They are NOT dirt track circuits...
All the tracks after 1966 are make in concrete-asphalt grounds..
Another pic of the same grid, 1969:
Bonus Track:
One Alfa Romeo too..
#28
humphries
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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:01
Ahh, the photo from Corsa, Copyright an' all. Ternengo can now be seen on the inside of what would be row 6 of the grid (a 3/2/3 formation) and Sotro on the outside of row 7.
The car next to Sotro, that was the only other front-engined car shown on the previous colour photo of the 1969 rolling start, is Sanmartino in a Requejo-Chevrolet. The popular veteran driver Requejo is in his latest car on the inside of row 2 which looked like a Lola T140.
The Alfa Romeo is from another era, I assume?
John
The car next to Sotro, that was the only other front-engined car shown on the previous colour photo of the 1969 rolling start, is Sanmartino in a Requejo-Chevrolet. The popular veteran driver Requejo is in his latest car on the inside of row 2 which looked like a Lola T140.
The Alfa Romeo is from another era, I assume?
John
#29
Bob Riebe
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Posted 19 October 2005 - 16:54
I referring to the dirt track champ car tracks USAC ran on up here in that same period.Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
[SIZE=3]Bob:
[B]
They are NOT dirt track circuits...
All the tracks after 1966 are make in concrete-asphalt grounds..
Bob
#30
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 20 October 2005 - 00:11
Originally posted by humphries
The Alfa Romeo is from another era, I assume?
John [/B]
That's rigth.
The picture was taked in 1952.
Regards.
P.D: I send more., coming soon..;)
#31
Ray Bell
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Posted 20 October 2005 - 04:22
Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
And what is the pace car?
#32
Gerr
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#33
Bob Riebe
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Posted 20 October 2005 - 17:05
Hm, and I thought it was a'68.
#34
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 22 October 2005 - 23:10
Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Hm, and I thought it was a'68.
No.
The last grid picture are from 1969 edition.
Regards.
#35
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 08 June 2008 - 23:29
My father and my uncle Enrique Benamo Sr build the new car Benamo-Chevrolet with rear engine (the FIRST in Argentina), they builded two cars, one for my father and another for míster Joseph, who was a chief engineer of General Motors of Argentina, because General Motors wanted two competitive cars for fighting the leadership in the mytical race Rafaela 500 Millas..!!
My father Manuel suffer an accident in a Midgets race one week before the 500 Milles race., and the new car Benamo B2-Chevrolet was drive by the great Luis Di Palma, my dear friend.
In the picture, Luis Di Palma in second place with the Benamo-Chevrolet car..,
My father Manuel suffer an accident in a Midgets race one week before the 500 Milles race., and the new car Benamo B2-Chevrolet was drive by the great Luis Di Palma, my dear friend.
In the picture, Luis Di Palma in second place with the Benamo-Chevrolet car..,
#36
driverider
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 08:05
Fantastic memories - great to get well informed insight - thank you
Given the really interesting lives these 250Fs have lived - cut and shut to maintain competitiveness I guess that this means that most of the 250Fs we see today are all reconstructions
How many of the 250Fs we see on track today are the real thing?
Given the really interesting lives these 250Fs have lived - cut and shut to maintain competitiveness I guess that this means that most of the 250Fs we see today are all reconstructions
How many of the 250Fs we see on track today are the real thing?
#37
David McKinney
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 09:02
There's no mention of 250Fs in this thread, DR
But there's been plenty in other threads
But there's been plenty in other threads
#38
driverider
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 09:17
Originally posted by David McKinney
There's no mention of 250Fs in this thread, DR
But there's been plenty in other threads
My mistake and apologies - the only reference to 250F was in respect of you being the resident expert - I made the link from A6GCM to the early 250F and the subsequent lives
As the resident expert what is your opinion on the question posed?
"Given the really interesting lives these 250Fs have lived - cut and shut to maintain competitiveness I guess that this means that most of the 250Fs we see today are all reconstructions
How many of the 250Fs we see on track today are the real thing?"
#39
Scuderia SSS
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 20:46
Originally posted by Bob Riebe
It would have been incredible to have seen this, these cars on some of the old dirt track champ car races.
God bless Argentina,
Bob
Maybe you'll like these then
....I have more ;) 
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#40
Adam F
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 09:11
Scuderia SSS - many thanks for posting these fascinating photos.
Anyone have any idea about the ancestry of Sticoni's car (the one pictured by Sc SSS)?
The results I have refer to it as a "Plymouth" but it looks like it had a more interesting history......
Anyone have any idea about the ancestry of Sticoni's car (the one pictured by Sc SSS)?
The results I have refer to it as a "Plymouth" but it looks like it had a more interesting history......
#41
Scuderia SSS
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 18:30
Originally posted by Adam F
Scuderia SSS - many thanks for posting these fascinating photos.
Anyone have any idea about the ancestry of Sticoni's car (the one pictured by Sc SSS)?
The results I have refer to it as a "plymouth" but it looks like it had a more interesting history......
Hi Adam,
Trying to track down any info about Sticconi is hard enough, especially when you dont speak the language. I'm still compiling photos and info so will update when i have some more positive stuff. By the way, the guy in the second photo behind Sticconi is Juan Zampa.
Oh, nice little website by the way Adam. Helped me a little with some info on Abecassis i was searching for.
#42
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 23:18
Great pictures "Scuderia SSS".,
Many thanks..,
Many thanks..,
#43
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 13 June 2008 - 23:43
The local 250F's copy:
The Requejo-Chevrolet (6 cylinders Wayne), was make by Jorge and Ramon Requejo, the car won the Rafaela 500 Milles in 1961.
Was a very good car, very easy to drive., good brakes for this times..,
The Requejo-Chevrolet (6 cylinders Wayne), was make by Jorge and Ramon Requejo, the car won the Rafaela 500 Milles in 1961.
Was a very good car, very easy to drive., good brakes for this times..,
#44
O Volante
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Posted 16 June 2008 - 11:40
Hello together,
saw Scuderia's very nice pictures, and Adam's comments only now ...
I'm not so sure, Adam: At least sometimes, Mecanica Nacional cars were produced extremely neat and pretty ... For me, the main trouble with Sticoni's "Plymouth" is simply that it may be more than just one. Neither from Scuderia's pictures of it/them nor others appearing in old or new magazines or net sites it is possible to conclude anything definite ... It may indeed be one car (chassis, frame) rebuild many times, or two or even more cars!
Further, it is very difficult to link the development of Sticoni's car/cars with that of other Plymouth' raced in Argentine Mecanica Nacional during the 1950s. Besides Sticoni's, the most notably are probably the cars of Jesus Ricardo Iglesias and Alberto Crespo (who later had an Alfa Romeo engine installed) all invariably appearing in the Fuerza limitada class. What seems clear, however, is the reason why the Plymouth engine was so popular: The capacity limit of Fuerza limitada was 3300 cc. Therefore, it was very fitting that the new 6-cylinder engine Chrysler developed in 1934 to reengine its sub-brand had 3299 cc and that this design went later also into Argentine production, which qualifyied it for use in Mecanica Nacional!
Very nice historic pictures, indeed, Scuderia, would really like to see more! But first for the Enrique Sticoni/Ciriaco Zampa picture: Is the following car really what I think? Do you know more?
Another nice recent shot, Repco, but still so many questions about the history of the Requejo cars remain: When was this car, the winner of the Rafaela 500 in 1962, originally build? Is this the same car Ramón also used to win in 1957 and 1960, at that time still with Corvette V8 engine? And is this the car raced mid-1960s by Hector Sanmartino?
saw Scuderia's very nice pictures, and Adam's comments only now ...
I'm not so sure, Adam: At least sometimes, Mecanica Nacional cars were produced extremely neat and pretty ... For me, the main trouble with Sticoni's "Plymouth" is simply that it may be more than just one. Neither from Scuderia's pictures of it/them nor others appearing in old or new magazines or net sites it is possible to conclude anything definite ... It may indeed be one car (chassis, frame) rebuild many times, or two or even more cars!
Further, it is very difficult to link the development of Sticoni's car/cars with that of other Plymouth' raced in Argentine Mecanica Nacional during the 1950s. Besides Sticoni's, the most notably are probably the cars of Jesus Ricardo Iglesias and Alberto Crespo (who later had an Alfa Romeo engine installed) all invariably appearing in the Fuerza limitada class. What seems clear, however, is the reason why the Plymouth engine was so popular: The capacity limit of Fuerza limitada was 3300 cc. Therefore, it was very fitting that the new 6-cylinder engine Chrysler developed in 1934 to reengine its sub-brand had 3299 cc and that this design went later also into Argentine production, which qualifyied it for use in Mecanica Nacional!
Very nice historic pictures, indeed, Scuderia, would really like to see more! But first for the Enrique Sticoni/Ciriaco Zampa picture: Is the following car really what I think? Do you know more?
Another nice recent shot, Repco, but still so many questions about the history of the Requejo cars remain: When was this car, the winner of the Rafaela 500 in 1962, originally build? Is this the same car Ramón also used to win in 1957 and 1960, at that time still with Corvette V8 engine? And is this the car raced mid-1960s by Hector Sanmartino?
#45
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 16 June 2008 - 22:33
Another nice recent shot, Repco, but still so many questions about the history of the Requejo cars remain: When was this car, the winner of the Rafaela 500 in 1962, originally build? Is this the same car Ramón also used to win in 1957 and 1960, at that time still with Corvette V8 engine? And is this the car raced mid-1960s by Hector Sanmartino?
Is not the same car.,
The 1961 car (called "El Ñandú") was new, builded in 1960-61, especifically for Ramon runned in Rafaela 500 Milles.,
The car was so good, que Ramon still running the car in circuit races four years more (with several engines evolutions)., untill 1967 when Ramon and Jorge builded the new Requejo car with rear engine.
regards
The first Requejo rear engine:
#46
Scuderia SSS
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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:20
Originally posted by O Volante
Very nice historic pictures, indeed, Scuderia, would really like to see more! But first for the Enrique Sticoni/Ciriaco Zampa picture: Is the following car really what I think? Do you know more?
Unfortunately i have no other info on the car of Zampa only that it was in 1952
Here are a few more shots to ponder
Sticoni and Dante Trotta, who i believe was in an incident near the finish line of the Final race of the Turismo Carretera "Temporada" series.
#47
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 21 June 2008 - 03:02
Extremely nice PICS...!!!
Go on "ScuderiaSSS", don't stop please!!!!!!!!!
We want MORE!!
Go on "ScuderiaSSS", don't stop please!!!!!!!!!
We want MORE!!
#48
O Volante
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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:26
Many thanks to both of you!
Repco: Thank you for the correction; I had always thought 1962! Surely it had made most sense to build a new car when the new rules of Mecanica Nacional came into power and the Fuerza libre class became F1 class with a capacity a little over 4 litres. By this, engines would be lighter, and consequently also lighter cars/frames could be constructed ... But you say 1960/1961, the last two years of the old libre class, for "El Nandu": Then it must have been the replacement for the car Requejo used to win his first Rafaela 500 in 1957. He had the same car in the shortend 1958 edition and in 1959, but in this year it was damaged considerably by a fire. But which car had he to win the 1960 race: The old one repaired, or already "El Nandu"? And when did Requejo build the old one, and what happend to it after "El Nandu" became his regular car?
Scuderia: Wonderful pictures of Mecanica Nacional; many, many thanks for sharing, and please, please go on!
Repco: Thank you for the correction; I had always thought 1962! Surely it had made most sense to build a new car when the new rules of Mecanica Nacional came into power and the Fuerza libre class became F1 class with a capacity a little over 4 litres. By this, engines would be lighter, and consequently also lighter cars/frames could be constructed ... But you say 1960/1961, the last two years of the old libre class, for "El Nandu": Then it must have been the replacement for the car Requejo used to win his first Rafaela 500 in 1957. He had the same car in the shortend 1958 edition and in 1959, but in this year it was damaged considerably by a fire. But which car had he to win the 1960 race: The old one repaired, or already "El Nandu"? And when did Requejo build the old one, and what happend to it after "El Nandu" became his regular car?
Scuderia: Wonderful pictures of Mecanica Nacional; many, many thanks for sharing, and please, please go on!
#49
Repco von Brabham
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Posted 12 July 2008 - 15:42
My father (inside the car) and my uncle Enrique (to the left) with the first Benamo F1 car what both builded., with Pontiac Tempest engine, (extremely heavy for a F1 car...)
That first Benamo model, was the first Argentine F1 car with rear engine , two years before to the famous Oreste Berta..,
That first Benamo model, was the first Argentine F1 car with rear engine , two years before to the famous Oreste Berta..,
