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The end of the road...


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 06:42

I consider this to be a worthy subject for this forum, though I suspish that many would disagree...

This weekend's Chinese Grand Prix will see the end of the F.1 road for 3 racing marques. (I wonder if that has happened before to 3 'regular' entrants at the end of the same seasons - I'm not talking part-timers or one offers....)

After this weekend, the names Minardi, Sauber and Jordan will join Tyrrell, Brabham, BRM etc etc etc.

To me, the most notable is Minardi. I was amazed yesterday when I read that Minardi is the 4th longest-lived of the current 10 F.1 teams. While Sauber has been around for 13 years too; and Jordan for 14 I believe.

I do realise that Alfa and Maserati were going for much longer before WW2, but when you think that from the World Championships beginnings in 1950, 14 years takes you well past Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Porsche, Connaught, Vanwall and several others, I suppose that a racing history lasting as long as these 3 modern teams have had is quite an achievement.

Bye-bye Minardi, Sauber, Jordan; hello, B.M.W, Midland and......?????? :confused:

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#2 petefenelon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 08:20

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I consider this to be a worthy subject for this forum, though I suspish that many would disagree...

This weekend's Chinese Grand Prix will see the end of the F.1 road for 3 racing marques. (I wonder if that has happened before to 3 'regular' entrants at the end of the same seasons - I'm not talking part-timers or one offers....)

Bye-bye Minardi, Sauber, Jordan; hello, B.M.W, Midland and......?????? :confused:


...and BAR! (so the Tyrrell and Reynard "threads" are extinguished in F1, although Reynard DNA still lives on in the Zytek and DBA sports cars...)

Thinking of it though, the only two teams in F1 that have never changed ownership are Ferrari and Toyota (and Toyota haven't really been there long enough to count!). Williams is of course Sir Frank's second team (the first one largely became Wolf); McLaren would've gone away without the reverse-takeover by Project Four; Red Bull has been Stewart and Toyota; and Renault's been Toleman and Benetton!

(And you could claim that Ferrari is just Benetton Old Boys these days ;)

#3 Kvadrat

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 08:35

Don't you think the end of the road means just super highway entrance because in 2006 we can get the same carmakers battle as was exactly 100 years ago? May be a couple of years later ALL privateers will sell their teams to carmakers.

#4 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 08:49

...and the modern Renault F1 team can be traced Colin Hawker's supersaloon Capri V8!
Ted Toleman was persuaded to enter motor racing via the Toleman Group sponsoring Colin's club racing Capri back in the early 70s. This led to Hawker's supersaloon DFVW in 1975, built using the tub of the 1972 Le Mans Duckhams Special.

Ted, brother Bob and Toleman director Alex Hawkridge really caught the racing bug and bought FF Royale RP21s themselves in 1976 as a 3-car team, designed by Rory Byrne. Bob sadly died in October that year, the result of a testing accident at Snetterton.

In 1977, Ted and Alex carried on, sponsoring the works FF2000 Royale of Rad Dougall and in
'78 set up their own F2 team, prizing Rory away from Royale as engineer on their March 782 driven by Rad. In 1979 they ran F2 Ralt's, dominated in 1980 with Byrne designed cars and entered Formula 1 in 1981 as Toleman.

Toleman sold out to Benetton - Benetton to Renault! Some of the guys there have been around since the F2 days!

As Midland ( for example) develops, we will be able to trace it's existance back to EJs FF team in the 1970s too.

#5 roger_valentine

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 08:49

Thinking of it though, the only two teams in F1 that have never changed ownership are Ferrari and Toyota


I didn't know Enzo still owns Ferrari!

Pete is right, of course - the end of BAR means goodbye to FOUR (relatively) long-established names. But its only "hello" to Midland. It should be "hello again" to BMW, Honda and Red Bull. (I suppose Red Bull are long-established - been around for 12 months now).

#6 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:32

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
...and the modern Renault F1 team can be traced Colin Hawker's supersaloon Capri V8!
Ted Toleman was persuaded to enter motor racing via the Toleman Group sponsoring Colin's club racing Capri back in the early 70s. This led to Hawker's supersaloon DFVW in 1975, built using the tub of the 1972 Le Mans Duckhams Special.

In 1977, Ted and Alex carried on, sponsoring the works FF2000 Royale of Rad Dougall and in
'78 set up their own F2 team, prizing Rory away from Royale as engineer on their March 782 driven by Rad. In 1979 they ran F2 Ralt's, dominated in 1980 with Byrne designed cars and entered Formula 1 in 1981 as Toleman.

Toleman sold out to Benetton - Benetton to Renault! Some of the guys there have been around since the F2 days!


As my friend (who part owns Senna's Monaco Toleman) keeps telling people we are still waiting for someone other than Toleman to win the Championship - Renault's F1 roots are related to Fiat's.

When Schumacher went to Fiat he took several people with him - and they only started winning when they had got rid of all the Italian baggage (several of whom came from Toleman/Benetton).

#7 petefenelon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:37

Originally posted by roger_valentine

I didn't know Enzo still owns Ferrari!


:drunk: Well, Ferrari's still owned by the same people who own the road-car company ;P

#8 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:50

Originally posted by petefenelon

Thinking of it though, the only two teams in F1 that have never changed ownership are Ferrari and Toyota (and Toyota haven't really been there long enough to count!). Williams is of course Sir Frank's second team (the first one largely became Wolf);


The biggest badge on the Ferrari is FIAT - that gives a clue to their ownership, (but this is the team who's own publicity claims they have competed continually in the World Championship since it started etc. so anything is possible where they are concerned).

Williams Grand Prix Engineering hasn't changed ownership.
Frank sold his first team (Frank Williams Racing cars) to Wolf, but since starting the current team it has remained in his (& Patrick's) ownership - the departure of BMW suggests they didn't even sell part of the team to their engine supplier (as others have done).

Fiat bought Ferrari road cars in 1969, they increased their stake to 90% in 1988 (presumably Enzo's family(ies) still have their 10% following his demise).

Given that Williams GPE started in 1977 I would suggest that Williams are the oldest F1 team!

Was Toyota F1 always a Japanese programme or did it not start as Team Toyota Europe?

#9 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:35

Originally posted by Peter Morley


As my friend (who part owns Senna's Monaco Toleman) keeps telling people we are still waiting for someone other than Toleman to win the Championship - Renault's F1 roots are related to Fiat's.

When Schumacher went to Fiat he took several people with him - and they only started winning when they had got rid of all the Italian baggage (several of whom came from Toleman/Benetton).


In UK Formula Ford circles the Rory Byrne Ferrari's are jokingly called 'Red Royales'.

Renault's success is great for Pat Symonds too. He was brought in by Alan Cornock to Royale (from Hawke) to replace Rory in 1978. Pat then followed Rory a year later to Toleman as his deputy and stayed when Rory followed the money to Maranello and has been there since under different owners.

#10 RTH

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 13:13

'Autocar'' reports this week following their complete buyout of the British American Tobacco team, Honda are also planning a two car junior team to include Sato.

The fizzy drinks outfit will effectively also have a 4 car set up, presumably they all see a testing time benefit.

Talking of long defunct GP teams ,it seems after a 14 year absence from the British market in 2007 Lancia plan to sell a new range of road cars in UK

#11 Rob G

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 13:20

It's not just four teams that are reaching the end of the road, it's a full 40% of the grid! Amazing.

#12 Rob29

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 13:30

Ancestry wise-regardles of owner,personel,base or name.Scuderia Ferrari are the oldest by far,having been going since the 20s.
Followed by McLaren 1966.Matra International/Tyrell/BAR/Honda-1968
Williams 1969,then Toleman/Benetton/Renault,Minardi/Red Bull2,Jordan/Midland,Sauber/BMW & Stewart/Jaguar/Red Bull1 Toyota still being the only team ever to have paid the current entry fee for a new team.

#13 RTH

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 13:36

It's also, or at least is supposed to be the end of the 3 litre V10 era, not a period I will ever look back on with any fondness.

#14 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 16:01

Originally posted by RTH
It's also, or at least is supposed to be the end of the 3 litre V10 era, not a period I will ever look back on with any fondness.


The new formula doesn't promise to be any better - possibly less teams (if you count junior & senior teams as the same) & less power won't help overtaking!

Until they make radical changes to the cars (driver aids, downforce, refueling etc) it is hard to imagine that much will change (if it takes random grids then they could always go back to drawing the start positions from a hat!!!).

#15 petefenelon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 16:12

Originally posted by Peter Morley


The new formula doesn't promise to be any better - possibly less teams (if you count junior & senior teams as the same) & less power won't help overtaking!

Until they make radical changes to the cars (driver aids, downforce, refueling etc) it is hard to imagine that much will change (if it takes random grids then they could always go back to drawing the start positions from a hat!!!).


I'm hoping for some sense in 2008. Until then, the odd decent race apart (Japan was pretty good) I think I'll be getting my single-seater thrills, such as they are (I'm a sports car guy at heart) from GP2, CCWS, A1GP, WSR and even IRL for the next couple of years. And if you also think it's absurd that there's five categories that (semi)legitimately could be seen as "one step below F1" you're not wrong. Add FNippon if you like.;)

#16 bill moffat

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 16:33

Originally posted by Barry Boor

Bye-bye Minardi, Sauber, Jordan; hello, B.M.W, Midland and......?????? :confused:


How about "B- team,R ed Bull M otorsport", this could be shortened to...no not a good idea ;)

#17 ensign14

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 16:55

Red Bullocks?

#18 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 17:12

Originally posted by petefenelon


I'm hoping for some sense in 2008. Until then, the odd decent race apart (Japan was pretty good) I think I'll be getting my single-seater thrills, such as they are (I'm a sports car guy at heart) from GP2, CCWS, A1GP, WSR and even IRL for the next couple of years. And if you also think it's absurd that there's five categories that (semi)legitimately could be seen as "one step below F1" you're not wrong. Add FNippon if you like.;)


Japan was OK, which shows that drawing the grids at random might not be such a bad idea if you have to rely on such things to add interest!!!

Wish I had the option to see all the other series:

We get TV from Belgium, France, Holland, Germany and the BBC (+ some unwatchable channels from Spain & Italy) and not one of them show A1GP (coverage of the others is equally meagre).

So much for World Cup of motor racing - the teams might be from all over the world (or should I say all over the UK!), but the tv coverage is somewhat less global.

If I subscribed to some pay per view digital channel I might be able to see it, but I can't imagine it becoming a global success if they are relying on paying viewers.

#19 Scribe06

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 18:17

Originally posted by Rob29
Ancestry wise-regardles of owner,personel,base or name.Scuderia Ferrari are the oldest by far,having been going since the 20s.
Followed by McLaren 1966.Matra International/Tyrell/BAR/Honda-1968
Williams 1969,then Toleman/Benetton/Renault,Minardi/Red Bull2,Jordan/Midland,Sauber/BMW & Stewart/Jaguar/Red Bull1 Toyota still being the only team ever to have paid the current entry fee for a new team.


Scuderia Ferrari did operate not for a period in the late 30s after Alfa Romeo took back control over its racing activities; and in late 1960 Scuderia Ferrari was replaced as an entrant by SEFAC or Ferrari SpA SEFAC, take your pick.

I was under the impression that Bruce McLaren Motor Racing was organized in 1964 or earlier, but I could be mistaken.

Tyrrell certainly existed prior to 1968, being the entrant for The Other Wee Scot in 1964.....

Likewise, Frank Williams Racing Cars existed before 1969.

Hard to mourn over teams that were just faceless, bland, corporate groups of people.

Only the passing of Minardi is worthy of note.

Life goes on.

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#20 Keir

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 18:28

McLaren as a constructor entered F1 in 1966.

Tyrrell as a constructor entered F1 in 1970.

Williams as a constructor entered F1 in 1972 with the Politoys, but the first car designed and named a "Williams" didn't appear until 1978.

#21 Rob29

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 18:49

Dates I quoted were for start of F1 teams,pre F1GP in case of Ferrari! McLaren of course started in 50s in F2/NZlibre. Williams in F3 about 64.Tyrell early 50sF3.

#22 Roger Clark

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 18:53

Originally posted by Scribe06



I was under the impression that Bruce McLaren Motor Racing was organized in 1964 or earlier, but I could be mistaken.

Wasn't it late 1963, for the races in New Zealand and Australia the following year?

#23 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 16:45

Originally posted by Scribe06
Only the passing of Minardi is worthy of note.

I think the passing of Jordan is of note too. They might have squandered the good will in the last few years, but for most of their F1 existence, they were the perennial happy-go-lucky underdogs that everybody seemed to like. The end of the Sauber entity is probably more of note, not for F1 where they failed ever to really trouble a win, but for their sports car heritage.

#24 MCS

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 17:57

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
I think the passing of Jordan is of note too. They might have squandered the good will in the last few years, but for most of their F1 existence, they were the perennial happy-go-lucky underdogs that everybody seemed to like.


:confused:

Really? Your opinion, maybe?

#25 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 18:24

The "squandered the good will in the last few years" or "that everybody seemed to like" bit?

On the latter, I'm not saying that they were everybody's favourite, or everybody rated them technically highly, but they did seem to generate an unusually large amount of goodwill.

#26 MCS

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 18:34

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
The "squandered the good will in the last few years" or "that everybody seemed to like" bit?

On the latter, I'm not saying that they were everybody's favourite, or everybody rated them technically highly, but they did seem to generate an unusually large amount of goodwill.


I think your "signature" says it all really! ;)

#27 MoMurray

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 23:20

Let's have a little perspective here. The title of this thread suggests a sad ending, one to be mourned in the way the Lotus or shadow or Prost teams finally slipped below the waves. I doubt Paul Stoddard, EJ or the accountants who take care of Herr Saubers swiss bank account are very sad at this season's close. All three teams will continue with bigger and better finances and will likely become stronger than today as a result. These are name changes only and fortunately are not related to bankruptcies or catastrophic failures of the business. I can live with learning new names...

Mo.

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 22:54

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Wasn't it late 1963, for the races in New Zealand and Australia the following year?


Maybe not even 'late' 1963...

Didn't Bruce have the Zerex running under his own banner earlier in the year?

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 04:56

ISTR that the 1964 Taman series was the first appearance of Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Ltd as an entrant. But I'm not putting money on it

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 06:46

I'm sure the Guards Trophy at Brands saw the new team entered...

Well, almost sure.

#31 ian senior

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 08:21

Originally posted by Keir
Williams as a constructor entered F1 in 1972 with the Politoys, but the first car designed and named a "Williams" didn't appear until 1978.


Not if you read Motor Sport. They insisted on calling the Politoys a Williams, even though there had never been a "Williams" car before. That irked me a bit. I could well understand why they still called the JPS cars "Lotus" - they were the same cars as the previous season with a new colour scheme, but the Politoys was new, and I reckoned Frank could call it whatever he (or his sponsor) wanted. After the Iso-Marloboro deal expired , the cars did become known as Williams - 1975, I think.

I'd dispute that the current Williams is actually Frank's second team. Yes, there was a Wolf takeover, but what did they actually take over? Not Frank's cars - they used the nasty Hesketh 308C. Frank was still around, running things. When he was shunted to one side, he just left and set up shop again. By that time, there wasn't much, if any, of the original Williams team left at Wolf. So I would regard Williams GP Engineering as business as before, but with a slight hiatus.

#32 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 18:00

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Maybe not even 'late' 1963...

Didn't Bruce have the Zerex running under his own banner earlier in the year?

Bruce didn' t buy the Zerex until 1964. It was Roger Penske who drove it (and won) the 1963 Guards Trophy.

ISTR that the 1964 Taman series was the first appearance of Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Ltd as an entrant. But I'm not putting money on it

I would.

#33 LittleChris

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 22:37

Barry,

Reading the thread title ( too literally as usual !) I misunderstood. However, don't mourn the competitors, cos they come & go as & when economic circumstances decree. Just feel sad that the current French GP can be held at Magny Cours, whereas a few years ago the choices were, Reims,Rouen & Clermont. Don't even get me on the subject of the Chinese GP track !!!

Chris

#34 Barry Boor

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 22:43

I think that maybe people misinterpreted my feelings regarding this thread.

I was merely commenting, rather than lamenting. I think I gave up the lamenting when Eagle disappeared..... :cry:

...and maybe that little-known red and yellow car...... :)

#35 LittleChris

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 22:56

You're far too sympathetic to the subject when it comes to stating what I feel Barry ! Any chance of you being my PR agent should I ever become famous ?