Is Button the 'new Amon'?
#1
Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:08
Jenson Button
GRAND PRIX STARTS 99
GRAND PRIX WINS 0 Best Finish - 4 x 2nd Places
POLE POSITIONS 2
POINTS SCORED 166
RACES LED 9
LAPS LED 80
Chris Amon
GRAND PRIX STARTS 96
GRAND PRIX WINS 0 Best Finish - 3 x 2nd Places
POLE POSITIONS 5
POINTS SCORED 83
RACES LED 7
LAPS LED 183
Is this a case for history repeating itself?
Are there parallels besides stats given his very public contract wranglings with Williams and BAR?
The article also pointed out Jackie Stewart's results after 99 starts.
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#2
Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:25
I wouldn't be comparing Button to Amon just yet.
Forza Amon.
#3
Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:29
#4
Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:39
Next year will show his true level - I think Rubens will probably still be quicker than him despite Button's experience of the team.
I don't think he's even in the Coulthard-at-his-peak sort of level.
He's a good driver, sure, but these days it takes a lot more than that to operate consistently at the sharp end of the grid.
Chris had talent to throw away. Button's just another face in the pack.
#5
Posted 15 October 2005 - 02:18
#6
Posted 15 October 2005 - 03:13
This is not coming from a 'JB doesn't have it' position - merely a statement of fact.
#7
Posted 15 October 2005 - 04:13
#8
Posted 15 October 2005 - 06:31
Originally posted by jj2728
button the new amon?....blasphemous statement at best...
#9
Posted 15 October 2005 - 06:43
#10
Posted 15 October 2005 - 06:55
I just don't think such a comparison is fair. It would seem to me that Amon was a much superior driver simply because he honored his contracts.
Now given all that, I'd guess that Button will win a race or two in coming years if he's given anything approaching a competitive car.
#11
Posted 15 October 2005 - 07:36
Complete red herring, BroosterOriginally posted by brooster51
I've been waiting for someone to bring this up. One of the problems with such a comparison is in Amon's day, the top F1 drivers would often compete in other categories where comparisons could be made on some other basis besides F1 alone. Button does only F1 and doesn't offer much to compare in lower formula.
If you limit the comparison to F1 races - in fact, if you restrict it even further, to world championship F1 races - you will see there were many occasions in which Amon was in a dominant position, heading for an apparent certain victory, when "bad luck" intervened. I can't remember many such occasions when Button has been in this position.
#12
Posted 15 October 2005 - 08:34
Originally posted by brooster51
I just don't think such a comparison is fair. It would seem to me that Amon was a much superior driver simply because he honored his contracts.
#13
Posted 15 October 2005 - 10:38
I'm pretty sure Clark said something like that about Dan Gurney.Originally posted by Zawed
I think it was Jim Clark (or maybe it was Jochen Rindt?) who said he feared Amon the most of all his comtempories.
#14
Posted 15 October 2005 - 11:04
Originally posted by scheivlak
I'm pretty sure Clark said something like that about Dan Gurney.
As I understand it, Jimmy told his father that. Atleast that's what Dan said on some TV show. Clark's dad told Gurney, after the funeral, if I remember correctly. Must've been quite a moment.....
About Button, he's good, but c'mon......
#15
Posted 15 October 2005 - 11:31
i mean all: speed, talent, results, team troubles, etc ...
Amon is too far in years, another "age" of F-1 as by teams as by drivers.
Note: i can compare Clark to Stewart, JS to Lauda, NL to Prost, AP to Schum, Alesi to Button.
But i just think it`s very wrong to compare Clark to Button.
To much difference in Cars and Technologies.
#16
Posted 15 October 2005 - 11:59
Originally posted by kup
But i just think it`s very wrong to compare Clark to Button.
This, m'lud, is what is known as an "understatement".
I read that Clark's father actually made the comment about Gurney during the funeral service, in his speech - Dan heard it whilst sitting in the congregation, and it brought tears to his eyes.
#17
Posted 15 October 2005 - 12:21
Originally posted by kup
JB is like Alesi in his youth, imho.
i mean all: speed, talent, results, team troubles, etc ...
I don't think he has the speed or style of Alesi. In his first season and a bit you were constantly looking out for the Tyrrell just to see where Jean had put it and who he was beating with it.
Alesi was more like Amon than Button is - he had the car control, he had the terrible luck, and he had the misfortune to be around just as there were luckier greats around who were perhaps willing to give 105% instead of 100... Also, as with Amon, I don't know anyone who appreciates real Racers who doesn't have a soft spot for Jean.
#18
Posted 15 October 2005 - 13:39
#19
Posted 15 October 2005 - 15:36
What if Amon was in his prime today and "Buttboy" drove in Amon's period? Sorry, I just find JB to be rude and crude whereas I've never, never heard anyone trash Amon the man.
As we say in America Football Jenson couldn't carry Amon's jock or in this case, his helmet bag.
I do, however, see a big difference in Button's favor, he does think he is wonderful. If he ever gets a consistently decent car, he does have enough of an ego to press on. I rate DeFerran highly, we'll soon see if he really know what he is doing! Ruben and he will be a very interesting mix.
This is clearly an emotional statement, but I think Amon would bury all of these whining brats.
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#20
Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:18
Jim Clark mentioned during the 1968 Tasman that he (Clark) feared Amon the most. Clark may have been speaking "Tasman" specific or in general, I really don't know.
Looking purely at the stats and with no knowledge of the players, one could surmise that Amon and Button have similar records at 99 GP's.
..... but, as we all know, that is not the case.
FORZA AMON - Who's Button ??
#21
Posted 15 October 2005 - 18:09
Originally posted by Keir
Now, that's more like it !!
Jim Clark mentioned during the 1968 Tasman that he (Clark) feared Amon the most. Clark may have been speaking "Tasman" specific or in general, I really don't know.
Looking purely at the stats and with no knowledge of the players, one could surmise that Amon and Button have similar records at 99 GP's.
..... but, as we all know, that is not the case.
FORZA AMON - Who's Button ??
Good Keir
I do not remember well but, when Amon was a Ferrari driver, I think that it was Mauro Forghieri who said: - Amon is the "new Clark", however he ( Amon ) does not know it yet.
#22
Posted 15 October 2005 - 18:49
Originally posted by David M. Kane
What if Amon was in his prime today and "Buttboy" drove in Amon's period? Sorry, I just find JB to be rude and crude whereas I've never, never heard anyone trash Amon the man.
You're accusing Button of being rude and crude while in the same paragraph calling him Buttboy?
I think if Button gets the right car he has the talent to win a lot of races. How many races did it take Mika Hakkinen before he won? As soon as McLaren gave him a decent car he was winning every other race!
John
#23
Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:39
#24
Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:41
Personally, I thought that Alesi spent the majority of his F1 career overdriving. Sure, he didn't often have the best machinery at his disposal, but even so...Originally posted by petefenelon
I don't think he has the speed or style of Alesi.
Moments like his GP debut at Ricard in 1989 and his 'lack of respect' at Phoenix in 1990 were fantastic, of course, but he ended up like a 1990s version of René Arnoux when he was in heyday of the early-mid 1980s; a rapid rockape.
In contrast, Button seems to be smooth-in-style behind the wheel, but I'm afraid that these days the driver aids hamper the chance to appreciate raw talent almost totally. As a person, he leaves a lot to be desired.
A1GP has had one interesting aside in that a few drivers expected to go well - ex-F1 racers, testers and the like - have really struggled, and it must be assumed that once they're deprived of the gizmos they've been so reliant upon in the past, they're basically exposed and, as a consequence, buggered.
BTW JohnS does have a point, David...!
#25
Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:47
A first seson is a first season whether there's 10 races or 16, as is a season in an uncompetitive car. Effectively Button has done fewer races than Amon.
#26
Posted 15 October 2005 - 20:04
Originally posted by D-Type
Effectively Button has done fewer races than Amon.
Do you mean simply because he's competed in fewer seasons, Duncan?!
#27
Posted 15 October 2005 - 20:57
Yes, I think so. The point I'm trying to make is that we are not comparing like to like. Although fewer races made up a championship season, in earlier times drivers also raced in other categories, so I think it is more meaningful to count seasons than races. How you express this statistically I don't know.Originally posted by Twin Window
Do you mean simply because he's competed in fewer seasons, Duncan?!
The converse is that you could say that Amon effectively drove in more GP's. He certainly competed in more top level races. He did have wins in non-championship F1 races, International sports car races such as Le Mans and the 'almost F1' Tasman races. I haven't read Forza Amon so I can't give statistics.
#28
Posted 15 October 2005 - 22:02
Originally posted by David McKinney
Complete red herring, Brooster
If you limit the comparison to F1 races - in fact, if you restrict it even further, to world championship F1 races - you will see there were many occasions in which Amon was in a dominant position, heading for an apparent certain victory, when "bad luck" intervened. I can't remember many such occasions when Button has been in this position.
Sorry, I didn't state my point clearly. Amon proved his ability time and time again not just by domintating a number of F1 races that he had the bad luck to not win, but by being extremely competitive in other classes. Button has only F1. Amon displayed his ability in such series as the Tasman where he was clearly competitive and won against Clark, et al. Button has not had that opportunity. So saying it differently, did Amon show, unequivocally, his ability and the answer is Yes. Has Button, No, not to say that he won't.
It's an observation that drivers in Amon's era had the opportunity to clearly demonstrate these abilities even though they didn't win in F1. Another example that may even be a bit clearer is J. Rindt. 3 dog years in Cooper Maserati and a year in Brabham Repco where he could show only that he could move a not very good car (or engine in the case of the Brabham) around with some speed. But in F2 he was dominant and gernerally won against all comers. F1 drivers today don't have that chance.
#29
Posted 15 October 2005 - 22:22
Still, he asked to be relieved of his Ferrari contract in 1969 and he simply didn't race the F1 car in the second part of the year. I've always been puzzled that other drivers (T. Brambilla, P. Rodriguez) did, but that Chris stood at the sideline.Originally posted by brooster51
It would seem to me that Amon was a much superior driver simply because he honored his contracts.
What was the story behind that? Why didn't he just race and fulfill his contract?
#30
Posted 15 October 2005 - 22:34
Originally posted by brooster51
Sorry, I didn't state my point clearly. Amon proved his ability time and time again not just by domintating a number of F1 races that he had the bad luck to not win, but by being extremely competitive in other classes. Button has only F1. Amon displayed his ability in such series as the Tasman where he was clearly competitive and won against Clark, et al. Button has not had that opportunity. So saying it differently, did Amon show, unequivocally, his ability and the answer is Yes. Has Button, No, not to say that he won't.
It's an observation that drivers in Amon's era had the opportunity to clearly demonstrate these abilities even though they didn't win in F1. Another example that may even be a bit clearer is J. Rindt. 3 dog years in Cooper Maserati and a year in Brabham Repco where he could show only that he could move a not very good car (or engine in the case of the Brabham) around with some speed. But in F2 he was dominant and gernerally won against all comers. F1 drivers today don't have that chance.
This is a bloody good point
#31
Posted 15 October 2005 - 23:40
There were times that Amon would do that. We haven't seen a hint of that from Button, and, after 99 starts, I doubt we will.
#32
Posted 16 October 2005 - 05:26
Originally posted by JohnS
I think if Button gets the right car he has the talent to win a lot of races. How many races did it take Mika Hakkinen before he won? As soon as McLaren gave him a decent car he was winning every other race!
John
Mika Hakkinen had his first win at Jerez 1997 marking his 97th start. This is also the most starts before a GP win by a driver who went on to win a WDC.
#33
Posted 16 October 2005 - 05:33
Originally posted by brooster51
Sorry, I didn't state my point clearly. Amon proved his ability time and time again not just by domintating a number of F1 races that he had the bad luck to not win, but by being extremely competitive in other classes. Button has only F1. Amon displayed his ability in such series as the Tasman where he was clearly competitive and won against Clark, et al. Button has not had that opportunity. So saying it differently, did Amon show, unequivocally, his ability and the answer is Yes. Has Button, No, not to say that he won't.
It's an observation that drivers in Amon's era had the opportunity to clearly demonstrate these abilities even though they didn't win in F1. Another example that may even be a bit clearer is J. Rindt. 3 dog years in Cooper Maserati and a year in Brabham Repco where he could show only that he could move a not very good car (or engine in the case of the Brabham) around with some speed. But in F2 he was dominant and gernerally won against all comers. F1 drivers today don't have that chance.
I understood your point perfectly, Brooster, and agree with it entirely
What I was saying was that Amon can be shown to outrank Button even by ignoring other categories
#34
Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:50
Originally posted by mctshirt
While reading a newspaper article which mentioned Jensen Button's 99 F1 starts thus far and has yet to win a GP.
Jenson Button
GRAND PRIX STARTS 99
GRAND PRIX WINS 0 Best Finish - 4 x 2nd Places
POLE POSITIONS 2
POINTS SCORED 166
RACES LED 9
LAPS LED 80
The article also pointed out Jackie Stewart's results after 99 starts.
In his 99 starts Jackie Stewart had 3 times been crowned World Champion and in cars that were probably not the best in the field in any year
#35
Posted 16 October 2005 - 09:44
#36
Posted 16 October 2005 - 13:01
#37
Posted 16 October 2005 - 13:45
Sometimes we're so naive!. It's 0.5m for driving racing cars, 54.5m for smiling sweetly and looking nice in front of cameras and sponsors. He has proved himself to be very good indeed at one of those.Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
I just find it incredible that a driver can be offered a 55 Million contract (over 5 years) yet has not won a motor race since 1999 - and that was in British F3! He didn't even win the title. Marc Hynes did who has sort of disappeared through lack of cash.
#38
Posted 16 October 2005 - 15:32
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Sometimes we're so naive!. It's 0.5m for driving racing cars, 54.5m for smiling sweetly and looking nice in front of cameras and sponsors. He has proved himself to be very good indeed at one of those.
( I wonder which one he is best at )
#39
Posted 17 October 2005 - 09:52
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#40
Posted 17 October 2005 - 15:15
Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
I just find it incredible that a driver can be offered a 55 Million contract (over 5 years) yet has not won a motor race since 1999 - and that was in British F3! He didn't even win the title. Marc Hynes did who has sort of disappeared through lack of cash.
The 5 years bit might be rather more important than the 55 million.
What are the chances that when Button's performance fails to live up to his PR again (next year, like any other) that he will want to get out of this latest contract as well.
The chances of him staying long enough to 'earn' anything like 55 million must be pretty remote.
I hope that the team has a get out clause, there are plenty of other perfectly adequate F1 drivers out there (and surely now that cars are so much more important it would be better to spend the money on the car rather than the jockey).
These days most companies seem to be trying to shorten everyone's contracts, F1 must be one of the few places where contracts seem to be getting longer!
#41
Posted 17 October 2005 - 15:47
Originally posted by Peter Morley
I hope that the team has a get out clause, there are plenty of other perfectly adequate F1 drivers out there (and surely now that cars are so much more important it would be better to spend the money on the car rather than the jockey).
These days most companies seem to be trying to shorten everyone's contracts, F1 must be one of the few places where contracts seem to be getting longer!
It'll be interesting if, for the 2008 season, the FIA manage to legislate all the driver aids out of existence. Teams might then be forced to hire drivers who can actually drive.
#42
Posted 17 October 2005 - 16:23
Shurely shome mishtake?
#43
Posted 17 October 2005 - 16:32
Originally posted by BRG
It is intriguing how some people manage to simultaneously deride Button for not winning a GP, whilst elevating Amon to hero status for….not winning a GP.
Shurely shome mishtake?
When Amon didn't win GPs, it was on several occasions because the car let him down in some way while dominating the race. Button just isn't as fast as the best of his opposition. Very different.
#44
Posted 17 October 2005 - 17:43
For the future, it is perhaps interesting to look at the example of Alonso, he was all at sea last year and this year he's the champion. All it would take is for BAR to produce a very nice car, and then you'd hear Jenson moaning about how 7 wins was a bit disappointing...
#45
Posted 17 October 2005 - 17:47
Originally posted by petefenelon
When Amon didn't win GPs, it was on several occasions because the car let him down in some way while dominating the race.
IIRC, Amon had to retire due to some problem when leading the race in six ocasions.
#46
Posted 17 October 2005 - 19:06
Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
I
For the future, it is perhaps interesting to look at the example of Alonso, he was all at sea last year and this year he's the champion.
All at sea?? The lad is younger than my children: what do people expect? He's probably got a sound system removed from his Citroen Saxo in the car.
I think he's still younger than my children this year, too.
#47
Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:50
Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
I wouldnt go as far as comparing Button with Amon but Button is far from rubbish as some have suggested here. I'm not a fan of his but he manages to be consistently up the sharp end race after race. However, he's probably the least 'respected' driver at the business end of the grid...
For the future, it is perhaps interesting to look at the example of Alonso, he was all at sea last year and this year he's the champion. All it would take is for BAR to produce a very nice car, and then you'd hear Jenson moaning about how 7 wins was a bit disappointing...
Button is certainly far from rubbish, none of them are rubbish.
But he has done nothing to suggest he is as good as we are constantly being told, and the idea that he is worth paying so much just doesn't add up (as with Irvine & Villeneuve in recent memory).
Whichever team produces the best car they can win (nearly) everything these days, look what happens to M. Schumacher when the car takes a step backwards - even a 7 time world champion can't make a 2nd rate car go well (and vice versa - he couldn't have won so many championships in lesser cars).
That didn't always happen in the past, cars like the Lotus 78/79 were probably miles ahead, but it was far more difficult to optimise the car back then (computer simulations, data logging etc all help).
These days the difference a great driver can make is far less than in the past, spending the money on the car rather than the driver seems to have a far greater benefit (but of course money alone doesn't guarantee success = Toyota or Chelsea!).
#48
Posted 18 October 2005 - 09:08
#49
Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:21
By my count the only Amon team mate that won a race was Ickx - a year Amon could have been world champion.
And don't come back to me with Stewart in 1970 bacause while the cars might have looked the same they had different tyres and JYS not only had the best engines of the March drivers but probably the best of any DFV runners.
And he was being run by Ken Tyrrell.
So your point was what again...?
#50
Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:03
Originally posted by petefenelon
It'll be interesting if, for the 2008 season, the FIA manage to legislate all the driver aids out of existence. Teams might then be forced to hire drivers who can actually drive.
"Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food and tyrannise their teachers."
Socrates 469 - 399 BC
"there is nothing new under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (New King James Version)
"The driver of today can almost forget his engine and can certainly drive it as hard as it will go for the whole race. He can also virtually forget his gearbox: with six close ratios you just flick a small lever with finger and thumb; no need to grasp a large knob on a long lever.
"We began to wonder just what our driver of today has to do. He can barely break an engine, can’t muff a gearchange[sic], can’t wear out his brakes or tyres, he just as to lay[sic] there and drive.
But while it is different, there is still a great deal to do, and the things which are unchanged are much more critical. Because so many cars have equal performance he still has to make every movement to almost millisecond accuracy. He still has to judge braking distances, but due to improved brakes and tyres he can brake later, at higher approach speeds. Because of a better reliability he can race for the whole [distance], and often has to. He has to put more effort into the driving than yesterday’s counterpart, with more concentration and keener judgment. The GP driver still does an outstanding job; it’s just that he must apply his skills to different things.”
???