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Alain Prost about Gilles Villeneuve

Started by MonzaDriver , Oct 18 2005 10:24

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43 replies to this topic

#1 MonzaDriver

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:24

Hi to everyone,
I really would like to have the opinions of the members about those words of Alain Prost
about Gilles Villeneuve death's.
This words are taken from a web site dedicated to Prost,
but the article is on F1 Racing June 2001.

Question: Gilles Villeneuve?

Answer:

He was one of the most charming men. One of my first friends in motor racing. He was so honest and straight that he lost his life because of it. People don't know what happened in the weeks before his accident, and why it happened. It started just before Imola, then there was Imola, but it was all related. He did not kill himself. He was killed by people. He was so intense. I'm not sure he would have been world champion, but his is the kind of personality we love in Formula 1 and so miss.

What exactly Alain Prost means with this before Imola facts ???
His words are very precise and he point the finger about something or someone.
My only idea is about a rumor of those days that Villeneuve was going to found his own racing team........ but for me Prost speaks about something else.

Ciao
MonzaDriver.

#2 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:48

The most likely answer is Didier Pironi. The two of them had huge animosity between them after Imola, not long before Gilles was killed. My memory is not good these days, but I remember Prost was involved in one of the high speed accidents that stopped Pironis and Villeneuves career. The other driver was Jochen Mass IMSC, but I can't remember which way round it was.
Both the accidents were similar in that they involved tremendous closing speeds between the Ferraris and slow moving cars -Prost was in one of them -perhaps he makes reference to flag marshalls or officials of the meeting at Zolder if he was in the slower car?

#3 Mallory Dan

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:31

But the Prost article says the problem started before Imola, when I gather he was on OK terms with Pironi. Was it related to his wife, the Donaldson book implies he had had some issues there...

#4 tonicco

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:59

I reckon that Prost is alluding to Pironi's wedding, to which, and much to his surprise, GV was not invited. and also, wasn’t Marco Piccinini (Ferrari manager at the time) Pironi’s Best Man? I believe that this is explored at some lenght in Donaldson's book...

Anyway, this all coming after GV asked the journos to take it easy on Pironi, after his lacklustre performances in the beginning of the year, following a testing shunt that left him a bit shaken...

#5 MonzaDriver

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 13:31

Thank you Hum, Mallory Dan, Tonicco.
Like always in this forum, the replies are terrific.
I really did not know about the fact that Villeneuve was not invited at Pironi's wedding,
and Piccinini was his best-man.
So maybe a women's problem is behind those laps during the closing stages of the Imola GP '82....
Thank you and I hope someone else add his opinion.
MonzaDriver.

#6 Kpy

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 14:13

Originally posted by MonzaDriver

So maybe a women's problem is behind those laps during the closing stages of the Imola GP '82....

No. Racer's problems. The racer was Gilles.

#7 MonzaDriver

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 14:23

Originally posted by Kpy

No. Racer's problems. The racer was Gilles.

Yes Kpy, me too if I think about Gilles, I think the duel with Pironi is about racing, not women.
But in the article Prost speak about something happened some weeks before Imola.........
Not related to team's order not followed by someone.
And becasue Prost is so peremptory..... I was wondering about what ........
Ciao.
MonzaDriver.

#8 d.emerson

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:23

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
I remember Prost was involved in one of the high speed accidents that stopped Pironis and Villeneuves career. The other driver was Jochen Mass IMSC, but I can't remember which way round it was.

Mass was involved in Gilles Villeneuve accident in Belgium, practice session.

Prost was involved in Pironi's crash in Germany, a lot of rain this day and Pironi didn't see the Renault ....

#9 ozzy.g

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 12:12

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
perhaps he makes reference to flag marshalls or officials of the meeting at Zolder if he was in the slower car?

Mmh...no.
A part the fact that it was Mass, Gilles was in his IN lap when the crash happened.

#10 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 06:45

Originally posted by ozzy.g
Gilles was in his IN lap when the crash happened.

I have heard that before but I don't think it is true.

#11 Twin Window

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 06:50

Originally posted by d.emerson

Prost was involved in Pironi's crash in Germany, a lot of rain this day and Pironi didn't see the Renault ....

And Prost himself had only just avoided Derek Daly...

Originally posted by ozzy.g

...Gilles was in his IN lap when the crash happened.

No, he wasn't; Mass was on his in lap, while Gilles was on his last set of quallies and going for a time to beat his team mate...

#12 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 09:41

I think it was just the classic racing driver's combination of red-mist and wrong-place-wrong-time that killed Gilles and nothing more sinister than that. Accidents DO happen. It's a fact of life.

Despite all the Pironi stuff that was going on I always got the impression Gilles would have driven that final qualifying lap in similar fashion no matter what the background politics was. He always went for it because it always mattered and Mass's car was sadly in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was sheer fate.
"Sh*t happens"

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

#13 MonzaDriver

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 11:54

Originally posted by Twin Window
.....Mass was on his in lap, while Gilles was on his last set of quallies and going for a time to beat his team mate...

Yes Twin Window,
in Italy we always believed that this determination to risk everything to take pole position,
was due to Imola's duel. Where he feel himself betrayed from Pironi and team's order.
But the Prost's words indicate this motivation, this angry, this cause..............prior to Imola.

Thank you Simon,
your idea it's surely pertaining with Gilles's personality.

Dear Twin Window,
I am sorry, but I would like to ask:
Are you sure you dont know something more?

In any case my best regards to all.
MonzaDriver.

#14 ivandjj

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 13:25

in his villeneuve book donaldson sounds fairly convinced that GV was cheating his wife in the period prior to imola. now considering GV was totally honest and straight man by all accounts that sounds like situation which shouldve confused him a lot.
in fact that is only widely known situation where GVs behavior strays from straight and honest theme so ?...
we are getting in muddy waters now but id simply like to know what my childhood hero really was as a real person, behind public image of flawless knight.

still, GV died cos of misunderstanding with jochen mass IMO, whatever the other truths.

#15 jcbc3

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 14:26

According to the Donaldson book, GV was also a thief. A repentant one but still a thief.

I'm with SLewis. GV drove that qualifying lap no different than he would have in "normal" circumstances. It was a tragic racing accident, but nothing more than that.

#16 SEdward

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 14:58

Was Gilles on an in lap or not? I have read conflicting reports.

Edward

#17 jcbc3

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 15:59

Originally posted by Twin Window
... Mass was on his in lap, while Gilles was on his last set of quallies and going for a time to beat his team mate...

Post 11. This is the way it was. Reports stating anything contrary to this are wrong.

#18 ozzy.g

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 18:59

Originally posted by jcbc3

Post 11. This is the way it was. Reports stating anything contrary to this are wrong.

Reports stating anything contrary to this are wrong?
Why? Isn't it a bit desrespecting (don't know the right word in English, sorry...)?

Forghieri: "I called him in. His tyres were done after three fast laps. The lap he did to come in was the accident one".

Forghieri!

#19 ozzy.g

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 19:15

Originally posted by ivandjj

still, GV died cos of misunderstanding with jochen mass IMO, whatever the other truths.

Mmh...no misunderstanding I think. There was no time for it. Simply Gilles made the worst decision at the worst time.
It was a "mistake". Like at Fuji in '77.

#20 ozzy.g

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 19:21

Originally posted by irvine99

Villeneuve was out for another lap, but his qualifier tyres were used. So there was no real chance to beat Pironis time.

irvine99

Exactly. It was impossible. And, above all, he could not know if he had beaten Didier's time the previous lap (his last fast lap).

#21 LittleChris

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 22:47

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
I think it was just the classic racing driver's combination of red-mist and wrong-place-wrong-time that killed Gilles and nothing more sinister than that. Accidents DO happen. It's a fact of life.

Despite all the Pironi stuff that was going on I always got the impression Gilles would have driven that final qualifying lap in similar fashion no matter what the background politics was. He always went for it because it always mattered and Mass's car was sadly in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was sheer fate.
"Sh*t happens"

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Absolutely & I've always felt sorry for Jochen Mass, since some foolish people always seem to blame him for an accident that wasn't of his making.

#22 scheivlak

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 23:26

Originally posted by ozzy.g

Exactly. It was impossible. And, above all, he could not know if he had beaten Didier's time the previous lap (his last fast lap).

But that argument can work the other way as well...

#23 MonzaDriver

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 09:21

Originally posted by ozzy.g

Reports stating anything contrary to this are wrong?
Why? Isn't it a bit desrespecting (don't know the right word in English, sorry...)?

Forghieri: "I called him in. His tyres were done after three fast laps. The lap he did to come in was the accident one".

Forghieri!

Very good point, ozzy.g,
even if Forghieri signaled to come in, we all remember the footage of the accident,
Gilles was going very fast, in my opinion he was going to try another fast lap.
Even if the famous 3 laps of those qualifying tyres, was already done.

After reading all this beautiful posts, I have nearly formed this opinion.
Piccinini and Pironi, were " togheter" in the goal to make Pironi world champion in '82,
Gilles not invited at the wedding, was the way to make him understand that.
Imola was another way to confirm him that.
Gilles reacted on his own way, and this lead to tragedy, in the most unfortunate manner.
MonzaDriver.

#24 ozzy.g

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:58

Originally posted by MonzaDriver

Very good point, ozzy.g,
even if Forghieri signaled to come in, we all remember the footage of the accident,
Gilles was going very fast, in my opinion he was going to try another fast lap.
Even if the famous 3 laps of those qualifying tyres, was already done.

Don't think so. Gilles was going as usual. He did very fastly the IN laps too.

Originally posted by MonzaDriver

I have nearly formed this opinion.
Piccinini and Pironi, were " togheter" in the goal to make Pironi world champion in '82,
Gilles not invited at the wedding, was the way to make him understand that.
Imola was another way to confirm him that.
Gilles reacted on his own way, and this lead to tragedy, in the most unfortunate manner.
MonzaDriver.

Mmh...many doubts. Simply Piccinini was not Forghieri. Two different person. Forghieri would have been a lot clearer with the signals at Imola. However it's Pironi who didn't want to understand them...

#25 ozzy.g

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:59

Originally posted by scheivlak
But that argument can work the other way as well...

Uh?

#26 MonzaDriver

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 12:31

Originally posted by ozzy.g

Don't think so. Gilles was going as usual. He did very fastly the IN laps too.

Mmh...many doubts. Simply Piccinini was not Forghieri. Two different person. Forghieri would have been a lot clearer with the signals at Imola. However it's Pironi who didn't want to understand them...

I have some doubts about this last lap, even if he usually did very fastly the IN lap.......
so fast to take that risk in overtaking Mass. To me it sound strange............
I know it was Gilles Villenueve, he always took risks, but mentally he was also very cold inside the
cockpit, I mean he took that risk because he dont want to leave pole to Pironi.
I am not, and I was not, a fan of Gilles but we are speaking of a driver with a legendary car control.
Or maybe the kind of bend and the tv cameras really give us a not realistic view of the accident....

I agree with you at Imola it was Pironi who did not respect team's orders, but in the aftermath
of the race, the team did not condamned him. They said it was a normal Grand Prix.

MonzaDriver

#27 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 13:47

Does anyone recall the footage of this crash was needlessley included, week after week, in the title sequence of a TV quiz show hosted by Tommy Boyd a year or so later ? And a quiz show for children!

I always thought it in the worst possible taste or blissfull ignorance - the producers probably just thought "nice spectacular crash.." and had no idea what it really depicted...

Simon Lewis
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www.simonlewis.com

#28 scheivlak

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 15:14

Originally posted by ozzy.g

Uh?

Well, I must say that I begin to wonder what your line of reasoning was - and what mine was as well

#29 ozzy.g

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:26

I wrote that Gilles could not know if he had beaten Didier's time the previous lap (his last fast lap) simply because he didn't reach the pits. Or passed again in front of them.

#30 FLB

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 13:13

Originally posted by MonzaDriver

I have some doubts about this last lap, even if he usually did very fastly the IN lap.......
so fast to take that risk in overtaking Mass. To me it sound strange............
I know it was Gilles Villenueve, he always took risks, but mentally he was also very cold inside the
cockpit, I mean he took that risk because he dont want to leave pole to Pironi.
I am not, and I was not, a fan of Gilles but we are speaking of a driver with a legendary car control.
Or maybe the kind of bend and the tv cameras really give us a not realistic view of the accident....

MonzaDriver

I'm in Québec, so this is a subject that is pretty close to me, unfortunately

They've shown footage of Gilles getting the IN board at that Saturday at Zolder. Forghieri confirmed Gilles was on his IN lap on French-Canadian radio. It wasn't about beating Pironi's time. Gilles likely knew he was done, he wasn't on a quick lap, it was just the normal way he drove.

As far as Mass is concerned, he was having major brake problems (that's reported in Autocourse, so he was coming in slowly. The TV cameras may have been a little deceptive about the speed differential between the Ferrari and the March. Gilles tried to overtake him on the outside right before the entry to Terlamenbocht. Mass looked in his mirrors and saw Gilles coming. He did the right thing by moving off the racing line, but Gilles was already committed to the outside.

Two men made the same decision, at the same time, and one died for it

#31 ozzy.g

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 20:07

I believed that the fact Gilles was in his IN lap was world wide known.
Btw, I think we made clearer what really happened that bloody day.

#32 David M. Kane

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 22:14

I saw the accident on live television and watch it over and over...He was flying on the razor's edge.
He was NOT on an IN lap, he was on a mission. I have also had many, many conversations with Derek Daly who was there racing that day, he uses the story of Gilles rage in his motivation talks. Gilles said to Derek and everyone who knew him that he would never speak to Pironi again, and he didn't!

#33 MonzaDriver

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 12:46

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I saw the accident on live television and watch it over and over...He was flying on the razor's edge.
He was NOT on an IN lap, he was on a mission. I have also had many, many conversations with Derek Daly who was there racing that day, he uses the story of Gilles rage in his motivation talks. Gilles said to Derek and everyone who knew him that he would never speak to Pironi again, and he didn't!

David Kane thank you a lot for your testimony,
it really had something, about those last days of Gilles Villeneuve.
Maybe Derek Daly told you something more about his mood?
I mean something related to the topic of Prost in the interview.
In any case thank you a lot.
MonzaDriver.

#34 David M. Kane

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 20:34

MonzaDriver:

Unfortunately I no longer have access to Derek Daly, so I can't ask him for his further impressions;
but he did burn in my memory that this was not a normal rage, but a totally obsessive rage that comsumed the man totally to the point it caused him to make a fatal error in judgement. In other words he lost control of his mind and his body to a blind rage.

In a way, I think Mauro should seen this, sat Gilles down and said, "calm down or you're not getting in the car", but that's not F1 then or nor F1 now.

#35 John B

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 20:47

An aside to this - I remember reading (in an annual called Automobile Sport) that GV and Mass had met under the same circumstances at the same corner on Friday, and Gilles had slammed on the brakes, destroying his lap obviously and his qualifying tires. If true I wonder if this made GV less inclined to play it safe, regardless of what was happening off the track.

I largely agree with what simonlewisbooks wrote earlier, adding that in 1982 a big accident and fatality was inevitable given the various rules (turbo/ground effect/qual tires) in play. There could have been more, most notably when Mass was launched into a spectator area at Paul Ricard. I also remember Arnoux having a big one at the Dutch GP

#36 FLB

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 01:41

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I saw the accident on live television and watch it over and over...He was flying on the razor's edge.
He was NOT on an IN lap, he was on a mission. I have also had many, many conversations with Derek Daly who was there racing that day, he uses the story of Gilles rage in his motivation talks. Gilles said to Derek and everyone who knew him that he would never speak to Pironi again, and he didn't!

David, Forghieri himself showed him the IN board. Forghieiri wasn't at Imola and was rather PO'ed about the way Piccinini had handled the whole situation, so he had decided to take 'control' of the drivers himself. There's no doubt that Gilles never wanted to speak to Pironi again and that he suffered a serious case of Red Mist at Zolder, but, like I said, he HAD been shown the IN board by Forghieiri.

However, it does raise the question as to whether Gilles had decided to ignore team orders from Imola on...

#37 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 13:13

FLB:

Thank you for your insights! I stand corrected. :cry:

I talked to Jochen Mass a few weeks after the accident at the Detroit GP and I couldn't believe that
Niki Lauda was telling the racing press it was Mass fault. Mass was way too nice about it and I told him so. I told him, which was easy for me to say since I wasn't involved and just some stiff off the street, that, that he should approach Lauda man-to-man and say if you have a problem, be a man and come see me instead of going behind my back and hitting me with your purse!

This was according to Eoin Young and Innes Ireland while we were at a Cocktail Party at the Ford Museum hosted by Henry Ford II. Those two guys knew how to Party!

#38 MonzaDriver

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 15:24

Originally posted by David M. Kane
MonzaDriver:

Unfortunately I no longer have access to Derek Daly, so I can't ask him for his further impressions;
but he did burn in my memory that this was not a normal rage, but a totally obsessive rage that comsumed the man totally to the point it caused him to make a fatal error in judgement. In other words he lost control of his mind and his body to a blind rage.

In a way, I think Mauro should seen this, sat Gilles down and said, "calm down or you're not getting in the car", but that's not F1 then or nor F1 now.

Ok David always a pleasure to know something more.
Anyway I doubt that an exhortation from Forghieri, like you said, could have been useful.
We all remember the obstinacy of Villleneuve. And his no fear when a risk have to be taken.

FLB:
I understood your point about the IN sign on the Pit board, and thank you for let me know about those footage, but even if Gillles did not know at that moment his time, maybe he realized that his last lap was not good enough to take pole, so if you think about Gilles's personality it's really possible that he decided to try for another lap. Always with his tendency to take risks.
I am convinced that Villeneuve inside the cockpit, was not " slave of the emotions"
he was really cold and he used this coldness to go nearest as possible to the limit of car
or the limit of the track. In a manner never seen before and after him.
MonzaDriver.

#39 Mohican

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:20

Originally posted by David M. Kane
FLB:

I talked to Jochen Mass a few weeks after the accident at the Detroit GP and I couldn't believe that
Niki Lauda was telling the racing press it was Mass fault. Mass was way too nice about it and I told him so.

This is just extraordinary; have never before heard about Lauda making such allegations. Sounds like Hunt and Patrese post-Monza '78 all over again.

Where was Lauda himself at the time ? On the track or in the pits ? And what can he have seen of the accident that is not apparent from the film footage ?

#40 Mohican

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:28

Originally posted by ivandjj
in his villeneuve book donaldson sounds fairly convinced that GV was cheating his wife in the period prior to imola. now considering GV was totally honest and straight man by all accounts that sounds like situation which shouldve confused him a lot.
in fact that is only widely known situation where GVs behavior strays from straight and honest theme so ?...
we are getting in muddy waters now but id simply like to know what my childhood hero really was as a real person, behind public image of flawless knight.

still, GV died cos of misunderstanding with jochen mass IMO, whatever the other truths.

I also think that it was a pure accident, down to split-second decisions going wrong. Believe those of us who do not drive slick-tyred, ground-effect, non-carbonfibre chassis, turbocharged 1,000 bhp GP cars for a living can really imagine what it must be like.

Reading through the posts, was struck by quote above. Have not read Donaldson's book myself, but this was certainly different from the normal descriptions of GV's character.

Could it also help explain Jacques Villeneuve's public attitude to his father's memory, which at least I have always found rather...eh, unappreciative ?

#41 David M. Kane

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 13:51

Mohican:

I don't know where Lauda was at the time of the accident, simply this is what he told the three of us at the Ford Party. He was very upset and very sad about the whole event and the treatment he was receiving.

Hopefully Lauda was speaking out of frustration and out of sadness.

#42 Mohican

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 19:37

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Mohican:

He was very upset and very sad about the whole event and the treatment he was receiving.

Assume that you are referring to Mass here ?
Can well believe that he would be upset and sad. Lauda's comments appear very uncalled for.

#43 David M. Kane

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 20:39

Yes, I was speaking of Mass. Given the Rahal-Lauda relationship too, the nickname "The Rat" was well deserved.

#44 FLB

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 21:58

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Mohican:

I don't know where Lauda was at the time of the accident, simply this is what he told the three of us at the Ford Party. He was very upset and very sad about the whole event and the treatment he was receiving.

Hopefully Lauda was speaking out of frustration and out of sadness.

Mass was interviewed by a Montreal newspaper when he came here for the 1990 Player's Mondial (WSCC). He was driving for Sauber at the time. The journalist who interviewed him wrote that Mass still felt bad about the accident and that he had been worried the Montreal public would be resentful towards him. Mass (later?) said he was very moved by the public's reaction, because it was the absolute opposite of what he'd feared and that it brought him closure about the whole affair.

Another journalist (Jean Beaunoyer) who wrote a French biography on Villeneuve in 2000 interviewed Mass again for his book. While promoting his work on TV, Beaunoyer said he'd never met a nicer guy than Mass. He went out of his way to point out that it took years for the German to get over the psychological consequences of what happened on that fateful day in Zolder.

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