Goodwood Festival Ferrari 250TR entrant

Could someone have a look at their 2005 Goodwood Festival program and see if it lists the entrant (and country) for the Ferrari 250TR (0704TR) that Neil Twyman drove? Thanks.

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

According to the programme it carried race number 11. The entrant was Neil Twyman Ltd. Driver Anthony Hancock.

David

According to the results bulletin Twyman, not Hancock, drove.

Neil Twyman seems to be the chap who wears a Pete Aron helmet..............



Paul M

is it genuine or a replica?

That one's genuine; the pontoon-fendered car he drove at the Revival is a rebodied 250GTE c/n 3981GT.


Paul M

[B]



... According to the programme it carried race number 11 . ......?????? Do we have the right car this No38

Originally posted by Macca
That one's genuine; the pontoon-fendered car he drove at the Revival is a rebodied 250GTE c/n 3981GT.


Paul M

I knew that one TR he drives is made from the parts bin..... who owns this one?

http://www.barchetta...704TR.250TR.htm

Even Barchetta doesn't say.....................


Paul M

I only saw this 250TR #38 :

Originally posted by eldougo
[B]



... According to the programme it carried race number 11 . ......?????? Do we have the right car this No38

The "Goodwood number" is on that tiny bronze coloured sticker between the front wheel and the door number. Always a source of confusion , any number already painted on the car (an of course some are very historic in their original or meaning) stays there and you need to ignore it.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

That number is 58 (from 1958). Can't recall seeing another 250TR at the Festival this year.

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


The "Goodwood number" is on that tiny bronze coloured sticker between the front wheel and the door number. Always a source of confusion , any number already painted on the car (an of course some are very historic in their original or meaning) stays there and you need to ignore it.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

That's interesting. Presumably there is some sort of exemption from the very prescriptive RACMSA rules on numbers being displayed ?

Well, it is the Goodwood Festival and only a hillclimb in name, and not an ordinary event. I would expect the numbering rules to be far more stringent for the Revival.

Surely nobody would expect Mercedes to repaint '722' for example. If they were asked to do so, I strongly suspect that Daimler-Benz would simply not let the car appear.

Originally posted by TonyCotton


That's interesting. Presumably there is some sort of exemption from the very prescriptive RACMSA rules on numbers being displayed ?

We are talking about Lord M here ... he does tend to have a capacity to tailor things to the greater good when it comes to this kind of thing (an who can blame him?) and the MSA rules on numbers are, almost without exception, utterly ignored by most people anyway!
The revival is different. The numbering there is much as you would normally expect.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books

Sorry, my fault I looked in "The Revival" programme and sent you all off at a tangent.

David

Oh..................THIS one - 3981GT rebodied 250GTE 2+2.



Paul M

At the instigation of Doug Nye I will put both cars into context to avoid any mis information.

The car I drove at The Festival of Speed was chassis #0704. This is the car that was donated to the Ford Motor Museum in the mid 60's. This car has the most fabulous race history including:

'57 Le Mans (Gendebien/Trintignant)
'58 Le Mans/Nurburgring (Hawthorn/Collins)
'58 Targa/Sebring/Argentina (Hill/Collins)- The car won at Sebring and in Argentina

See Joel Finn's book for the full history.

This car remains in the most original condition and I believe it to be among the most desirable sports racing Ferraris in the world.

The car I drove at Revival was one of two exact recreations. In the late 90's I was in the position of having 4 original cars to rebuild. One TR58, one 250 pontoon fender car and two TRC's. With the experience gained and the parts acquired and built up I decided to build these two cars. One of which has been invited to the last 3 Goodwood's. Whilst the car which ran at Goodwood does have a GTE chassis number, that is the only thing in common with a GTE. The car infact is a tool room copy of a 250TR57 and contains many original parts.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Oh and the helmet...somewhere between Chris Amon, Francois Cevert and the limits of my masking skills!

Neil Twyman

I agree on #0704.

Here's a tiny section from a Kodachrome slide I made at Sebring, 1958:



My brother Don's photo of Josie von Neumann at Riverside, BIG PICTURE
(She's driving the far car)

edit: add second url

That is a GREAT picture...

Yes, I have great memories of Jerry Grant racing #0704 in the Northwest in '60 and '61. Pictures at:

http://www.tamsoldra.....l#Jerry Grant

More on this in Martin Rudow's new book, "Long Straights and Hairpin Turns" (The History of Northwest Sports Car Racing, Volume One: 1950 through 1961)

In Frank's second picture, that's Gordie Glyer of Sacramento on the inside in #0718. Here's a photo of Gordie and Gloria reunited with that car at Monterey last year, now owned by Lawrence Stroll. Very nice folks...great stuff!

http://img456.images...dscf02019fs.jpg

And Neil, can you tell us who owns #0704 now, or would you rather not say?

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

Apologies Vince but the owner is a very private person and wishes to remain anonomous.

I can assure you though, he is the very best person to own this type of car and whilst it remains in his posession it will always be kept totally original. Which is more than I can say for a GTO
Ferrari which has recently changed hands and is now having all the original bodywork, paint and trim redone to a concours standard. YUCK!

Neil Twyman

P.s an ammendment to my previous post, I was in the position of having four cars to restore in the late 80's not 90's..

Originally posted by joe twyman
Apologies Vince but the owner is a very private person and wishes to remain anonomous.

I can assure you though, he is the very best person to own this type of car and whilst it remains in his posession it will always be kept totally original. Which is more than I can say for a GTO
Ferrari which has recently changed hands and is now having all the original bodywork, paint and trim redone to a concours standard. YUCK!

Neil Twyman

P.s an ammendment to my previous post, I was in the position of having four cars to restore in the late 80's not 90's..

Quick question Niel -

The car you ran at the revival meeting sounded very quiet (at least among all those screaming Jaguar engines). Did TRs run this level of silencing in the 50s or was it running road-going spec mufflers ?

Simon Lewis

Originally posted by joe twyman
At the instigation of Doug Nye I will put both cars into context to avoid any mis information.

The car I drove at The Festival of Speed was chassis #0704. This is the car that was donated to the Ford Motor Museum in the mid 60's. This car has the most fabulous race history including:

'57 Le Mans (Gendebien/Trintignant)
'58 Le Mans/Nurburgring (Hawthorn/Collins)
'58 Targa/Sebring/Argentina (Hill/Collins)- The car won at Sebring and in Argentina

See Joel Finn's book for the full history.

This car remains in the most original condition and I believe it to be among the most desirable sports racing Ferraris in the world.

The car I drove at Revival was one of two exact recreations. In the late 90's I was in the position of having 4 original cars to rebuild. One TR58, one 250 pontoon fender car and two TRC's. With the experience gained and the parts acquired and built up I decided to build these two cars. One of which has been invited to the last 3 Goodwood's. Whilst the car which ran at Goodwood does have a GTE chassis number, that is the only thing in common with a GTE. The car infact is a tool room copy of a 250TR57 and contains many original parts.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Oh and the helmet...somewhere between Chris Amon, Francois Cevert and the limits of my masking skills!

Neil Twyman

Neil,
Thanks for your detailed reply. 0704TR is indeed just about the most original, desirable and historic 250TR - it was actually the prototype for the series - and there is universal admiration hereabouts for the car and it's patina.

The GTE chassis number was quoted by Boudewijn to identify the origins - the Revival car is certainly a beautifully-done copy, and all credit to you.

But your crash-helmet.............Amon's was blue/red, but only one person had the red/blue flared markings:



From 'Grand Prix', the movie - James Garner as Pete Aron.

;)

Paul M

Neil is inevitably rather modest about his efforts. I have seen his cars for some considerable time. He has restored/repaired/refreshed a stunning array of motor cars, lots with straight 8 and V12 cylinders, no names no pack drill, not to mention the three litre Bentley which had been in School for Scoundrels, see thread. The standard is superb on his cars and the patina which he preserves is brilliant, if that is not a contradiction. His refreshing of the Cedric Brierly, probably 500 miles from new, Lotus 11 was masterful.

I had my views on the Dennis Poore/Hans Ruesch (Sorry , cannot do umlauts) Alfa when I saw it at Donington, post Mayman sale, and they remain unchanged still after its restoration. It was because of Neil's rebuild of the ex Don Lee Indianapolis P3 Alfa , Hurlingham winner immediately thereafter, which I had been fortunate enough to see unrestored, retaining its as last raced condition, knowing what could be done, and in my view what should be done, that I raised the thread about the possible fate of the Williams Bugatti.

Roger Lund.

Usual disclaimers. I have no conection with Neil other than as an enthusiast

Neil Twyman is just one of many very good race preppers - its a good growth industry and it would be wrong to single one out for praise above others. I have used Neil as well as others and he is good but not better than his competitors.

To qualify at all as a competitor one should be of equal capability. Neil's outfit is one of very few at the top of the British restoration scene. Cream always floats to the top. (Oh all right, I know the reflex put-down, so does ****... ...but it most definitely doesn't apply here. So there.

DCN

I didnt realize this board was an aditorial - for the purpose of fairness I could happily name many restorers/preppers just as capable and who have produced just as good machinery - and I actually speak from experience

I have no wish to become contentious with what I raised as an innocent observation.

I am very aware that with the apparently endless expansion of racing for "historic" cars, in whatever guise or specification and of whatever provenance, race preparation is an expanding industry, linked, no doubt, (pricewise also???) to the expanding affluence of persons of a certain age wanting to enoy the cars of their erstwhile youthful dreams. I felt my disclaimer indicated that I was not wishing to single out Neil as the "best", although he certainly ranks alongside any, I suspect, especially when it comes to condition, accurancy and provenance. I recognise that there are many firms which offer similar levels of service.

However, in the nineties I was fortunate enough to have access to Neil's workshops, so I was able to see what he did, to what, and to what standard and in what manner, hence my views of the man's work. That is when I saw the ex Lee P3 "raw". In another life I first saw Neil at a Club Elite day at Goodwood in 81ish when he was looking after Bill Friend's ex Nielsson Lotus 70something with Willie Green demonstrating it. The fact that Neil is a tidy driver to boot, only serves to raise his profile. Yes, I know others can also do the stuff behind the wheel.

At a time when many claimed historic cars are benefitting from what are euphemistically referred to as modern technical improvements, but some may feel are non-period mods and developments boosting bhp and braking/handling capabilities, not to mention new, stiffer chassis, I feel anyone who aims to do it right deserves praise.

As an aside. if I had the money I would run perfect copies.

I felt however that the key thrust of my point was the matter of preserving condition and originality, hence the point especially about the ex Brierly Lotus 11, which seems to epitomise Neil's approach. That is why I turned the posting to raise the issue again of the prospects for the restoration/preservation of the ex Williams Bugatti. Having seen and photographed the Poore (note irony) Alfa pre restoration I feel my views are valid. An owner can of course have done to a car whatever he wishes. That goes with the title.

A separate issue which may generate discussion is the prospect of continuity of the skills which the likes of Neil, along with Jim stokes, Sean Danagher etc al, demonstrate, after they choose to retire. Many of the older VSCC-type people similarly possess these seemingly black arts and specialist knowledge which needs to be passed on. Knowledgeable specialist mechanics like the late Willie Griffiths, among others, are a declining breed I fear. Mistakes at all, but especially through lack of the exact knowledge and at that end of the market, are usually very expensive. Perhaps there is a need for some kind of funded specialist apprentice or post apprenticeship courses. Many young mechanics only know to plug in the diagnostic leads and to change components. The old skills and knowhow are in danger of being lost, I fear, maybe not overnight, but within a decade or so.

Any comments?

Roger Lund

PS I suspect that the quiet exhaust note on his TR reflects the fact that he uses it on the road, and there is little merit in drawing attention from any undesirable quarter. His engine spec is also probably more "period" than other TRs.

RL

Originally posted by bradbury west

A separate issue which may generate discussion is the prospect of continuity of the skills which the likes of Neil, along with Jim stokes, Sean Danagher etc al, demonstrate, after they choose to retire. Many of the older VSCC-type people similarly possess these seemingly black arts and specialist knowledge which needs to be passed on. Knowledgeable specialist mechanics like the late Willie Griffiths, among others, are a declining breed I fear. Mistakes at all, but especially through lack of the exact knowledge and at that end of the market, are usually very expensive. Perhaps there is a need for some kind of funded specialist apprentice or post apprenticeship courses. Many young mechanics only know to plug in the diagnostic leads and to change components. The old skills and knowhow are in danger of being lost, I fear, maybe not overnight, but within a decade or so.

As someone kindly pointed out the other day, at 41 I'm no longer one of the youngsters in historic racing. I was discussing this matter the other day with a friend who has also been historic racing for over 25 years - we were saying how many of the old faces had gone.

A lot of the old faces seem to be retiring at the moment - the days of John Harper, Danny Margulies etc have passed, but there are several newcomers like Hall & Bradfield who are starting to fill their positions.

Some of the older companies have already passed into the hands of their children - Hall & Hall, Crosthwaite & Gardiner, Ivan Dutton etc. and they are continuing (even expanding).

In the meantime a few 'new' people have appeared - Sid Hoole, Ian Nuttall, Martin Stretton etc. they are young enough to be around for some time to come.

Most of the companies I know are considering the future, but it is apparently very difficult to find suitably skilled people these days - for example so much work these days is done on CNC machines that it is hard to find someone who can operate a manual machine.

Modern technologies mean that some tasks are becoming much easier (and the quality is increasing) - computerised pattern making is much easier & cheaper, but magnesium casting is becoming a lost art, while producing things like cranks & rods is far simpler. Even work like aluminium welding is relatively simple these days.

Establishing how things were done originally can be simplified with modern technology - C&G x-rayed roller bearing cranks to work out how they had been assembled, computer simulation could establish things like V-16 firing orders (when the order written on the wall was wrong!).

What will be lost is first hand experience of how things were done originally, but relying on human memory isn't reliable - I've been shown things done recently by period mechanics who say that is how they did it at the time, but it doesn't match with photographic evidence. Fortunately since the 50's photography has been much more prevalant and it is amazing what information is preserved on film.

Situations where there is really only one specialist could be a problem - but it is in their interest to remain the only specialist, so they might be wary of sharing their knowledge!

But as with pre-war cars, where the 'old boys' are long gone, the knowledge has passed on, and given we aren't talking about advanced technology, it is surprising how quickly a good expert can work out something new!

Just hijacking this site instead a making another Thread.



http://www.jeffbloxh.../headimage.html

Having found Jeff's web site,and looking through it i found this car No7 Blue and white stripe down the middle . Could anybody please tell me what it is.Nice car never seen one before.

Thanks in advance Doug.

I wasn't at the Goodwood Revival this year, but think it's a Bocar

Originally posted by David McKinney
I wasn't at the Goodwood Revival this year, but think it's a Bocar

Yes, it's Dean Butler's Bocar, featured in CLASSIC AND SPORTSCAR earlier this year i recall. Quite a story behind the guy who built these in the 50's, seems he ended up owning a strip joint or something similar!

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Simon .... You got my interest with the strip joint??? However i would like to find out more about this GOOD looking car. A quick hit at Google and i found out that Bocar is and Australian automotive products supplier,and then there was the 1959 Bocar Stiletto driven by Bob Spooner in the states with a S/C Chev motor, and another Bocar in Torino in Italy also in the automotive industry......

So David and your goodself have worked out the Name ,so now i would like to find out more about this particular model, A great looking car in my mind Anybody with INFO. woh was at Goodwood in 2004...Thanks Doug.

Originally posted by simon drabble
I didnt realize this board was an aditorial - for the purpose of fairness I could happily name many restorers/preppers just as capable and who have produced just as good machinery - and I actually speak from experience

Simon - If this is some suggestion that my preceding post was intended merely to brass-up Neil Twyman's image in some kind of 'aditorial' as you call it, you couldn't be more wrong. I too have had experience with most of the leading restoration companies in this country over numerous projects from BRM to Vanwall, and on to Cooper and Ferrari - and I have a very clear personal rating of their relative merits - and past and present shortcomings...

DCN

Originally posted by eldougo

Simon .... You got my interest with the strip joint??? However i would like to find out more about this GOOD looking car. A quick hit at Google and i found out that Bocar is and Australian automotive products supplier,and then there was the 1959 Bocar Stiletto driven by Bob Spooner in the states with a S/C Chev motor, and another Bocar in Torino in Italy also in the automotive industry......

So David and your goodself have worked out the Name ,so now i would like to find out more about this particular model, A great looking car in my mind Anybody with INFO. woh was at Goodwood in 2004...Thanks Doug.

Doug I seem to have misplaced the correct C&S issue (either that or I've sold it..) so I can't check it to confirm the details of the story. The name Bocar was a contraction of the builder's two names I seem to recal - something like BOb CARlson or similar.
Apparently there were quite a few of these built and the article does say how refreshing that the body doesn't resemble the same Ferrari Monza outline the the Scarab and most of the other cars of this type and generation were seemingly all based on.
This chassis was one that had been built and never raced in the late 1950s the unearthed from the inevitable barn and completed in recent years for it's current owner.

The car also ran at centenary Shelsley Walsh hillclimb. It does look great . Now, if only I can find that issue and fill in the details about the strip joint...anyone else got the issue to hand?
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

The Bocar at the Festival of Speed this summer:



It also featured in one of the Michel Vaillant comics from the sixties being a "Texas Drivers" Team car.

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Simon - If this is some suggestion that my preceding post was intended merely to brass-up Neil Twyman's image in some kind of 'aditorial' as you call it, you couldn't be more wrong. I too have had experience with most of the leading restoration companies in this country over numerous projects from BRM to Vanwall, and on to Cooper and Ferrari - and I have a very clear personal rating of their relative merits - and past and present shortcomings...

DCN

many apologies I didnt realize that you were an owner as well as a journalist

So to update this story it's a Bocar...(And that is the Stiletto car behind it in Simon's good pic.)

So i gather it is a one off?
and.
Made in the USA.....?
Model Name............?
Cheverolet Powered.?
Owner's...................?

Originally posted by simon drabble

many apologies I didnt realize that you were an owner as well as a journalist

No - in most cases more deeply committed than owner - owner's rep, the bloke who would take the blame.... "But you assured me these people know what they're doing!".

DCN

Mick Walsh's Bocar article is C&SC June 2005.

Lots of details and potted history.

RL

Originally posted by eldougo

So to update this story it's a Bocar...(And that is the Stiletto car behind it in Simon's good pic.)

So i gather it is a one off?
and.
Made in the USA.....?
Model Name............?
Cheverolet Powered.?
Owner's...................?

The car behind it is Julian Bronson's Lister Chevrolet with Costin body (behind that a Frazer Nash anmd behind that is Simon Taylor's HWM Chevrolet "Stovebolt special").
Yes the Bocar was made in the USA but there were several of them built apparently.
No idea what the model name/number is but it is Chevy powered and can't recall who previous oners were but none of them had ever completed the car and got it running.

....I still can't find that issue of C&S for June with the feature on this car - curses!

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Thanks Simon.....

With grateful thanks to Roger Lund for supplying me with the original article - here's the Bocar details...

About 40 chassis were made by Bob Carnes in Denver Colorado before the factory burned down in 1961 - it was a suspected 'insurance job' and the company went bust waiting for the payout.
The orginal car, termed X1 was debuted at Pikes peak in 1958 and sold soon after so Carnes went into production with versions known as XP-4 and XP-5 and one early customer was Augie Pabst. There was also a road car version.
Willian Wohlfeld of Texas bought the XP-5 that appeared at Goodwood this year in 1960 and it remained partly finished at his home until 1985 when Harold Pace bought it and embarked on a 6 year restroration/completion.
The original Buick motor was replaced with a 283 Chevy on triple carbs. It first raced in 1991, was sold on, had the current 350 Chevy engine installed by the new owner from whom Dean Butler bought it in 2004.

As for Carnes, he's described as living "fast and loose" and died of liver failure in 1970 when he was running a "singles bar" which, reading betwen the lines, sounds rather more seedy than the term would nowadays imply...

Simon Lewis
www.simonlewis.com