Safe driving at Historic Events

;)

Several drivers were sent home for "aggressive" driving at the SVRA season ending event last week at Road Atlanta which was a pleasant surprise to me. Clearly SVRA is working hard to make the racing safer. I don't have enough details to discuss the specific situations as that would be unfair. But since the debacle at the BRIC both SVRA and VSCDA have stepped forward with some logical courses of action and administration.

Is was nice to meet Jacngilles who stopped by for a visit and both Shairon and enjoyed the chat that went well outside the realm of just racing. Hopefully he can post some of his photos.

I was there Saturday with Joel (lotus23) and on Sunday.
I spectated from the pit straights and I didn't notice some dodgy racing... except a close shave between two Brabham single-seaters.
Here are my pictures:
http://homepage.mac....otoAlbum99.html

So you were there?? :

"Gentlemen we are here to have fun, but if we catch anyone out ther RACING, you will be banned for life."
Ah for the days when men were men.

Bob

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
I was there Saturday with Joel (lotus23) and on Sunday.
I spectated from the pit straights and I didn't notice some dodgy racing... except a close shave between two Brabham single-seaters.
Here are my pictures:
http://homepage.mac....otoAlbum99.html

So you were there?? :

Antoine, thanks for the photographs - especially the American Iron.

I would suggest TNF'ers visit the other sections of your site - especially Watkins Glen.

Henry

BRIC = ?
SVRA = ?
VSCDA = ?

Antoine, who was running that Lotus 79? Is it Duncan Dyaton's car?

A little story... if Damon Beck's around he can back me up on this one... maybe Catalina Park can too...

The Clerk of the Course at Oran Park was Alan Payne... sometimes he was a real pain too.

Like the day he blackflagged the entire Formula Vee field. The drivers were all lumped into his office (or some other room...) and lectured for some time about their behaviour on the circuit. He drew reference to a previous event in this lecture, repeatedly stating that they 'hadn't learned from that' event.

That it had happened ten years previously, when maybe one of the present drivers knew what a Formula Vee was, didn't seem to matter.

My point? While it's not wrong to caution drivers, it's hardly going to sit well with them that events at one circuit (where they might not have competed) brings them under scrutiny at another.

its a trend i think goodwood did the same kind of screaning this year . some competitors were not invited , a small question about those road atlanta pictures what is that two tone green and white car (img0798-img0799) is it a scarab .

This week, on the Corvette Old Style Racing Special on Speed Channel (or whatever that show is called), they showed on-board images of the Road America GT race (BRIC?) starting débâcle that happened earlier this summer. All I can say is that it's a miracle nobody was seriously hurt because those guys hit a TON...

D-Type

BRIC= Brian Redman International Challenge

VSCDA= Vintage Sports Car Driving Association

SVRA= Sportscar Vintage Racing Association

Gary Critcher

Phil Harris, the New Zealander who bought the racing supply business, TrueChoice, from Jim Trueman's widow was driving Duncan Dayton's Lotus 79, he is a very fast, very competent racing
driving who I respect immensely. Duncan also had a pretty BT-29 there, along with a Chevron Sports Racer, B-19 or B-23, along with his '95 Reynard Indy car, The Villenueve Indy 500 winning chassis.

He wasn't there on Sunday after running over Larry Connor's nose which Larry manage to knock off
after a lurid spin under the Bridge at the most vunerable part of the circuit, since Duncan was right up his arse, he ran over it as it spun in front of him in the middle of the track causing extensive and expensive damage to his tub. It turn out to be an expensive weekend as on Friday they had to change motors after an over-rev.

In four weeks Larry has managed to have a 70g crash in the Infinti Pro race at Watkins Glen, spin off at high speed at VIR in his '95 Benneton F1 car knocking off the nose and rear wing, at no small expense in a qualifying race and two weeks later almost causing a HUGE shunt at a very spooky circuit. I can't tell you how disconcerting it is to get passed when your going 120 mph into a fast turn by someone going at least 160 mph. His closing speed is so superior the corner worker doesn't even have time to give you a blue flag. Bam he's there...very, very dangerous.

Bob Reibe

Clearly you've never had to pay $100,000 to fix your race car because some Bozo couldn't park his ego and race with his brain rather than his glands. Think about it, I just spend a year and a half rehabing a hand that was ripped off by some selfish ego-maniac who had a total disregard for the other competitors. Driving a race can and should be fun; but it also should require a degree of responsibility...just like a gun. Bob my statements are not meant as a attack on you, but simply the facts. In this race I am talking about a dangerous mix of cars from a 1979 Super Vee, Formula Atlantics, F5000s, Indy Lights, 1979 F1, 1995 F1, and 4 1995 or younger Indy cars with a difference in lap times of 30 seconds. You want to get a freak job try getting passed by three Indy Cars and a modern F1 car going 60 mph faster than you, it makes the F2 car you're peddling seem
just a bit endangered, one false move and you could serious hurt three people as well as yourself.
Think about the physics involved in such a collision. It would be like a Yugo being hit by an Enzo going 180 mph.

There should have been two race groups, finally that is what they did on Sunday when they realized the beast they had on there hands.

Antoine

The close shave was between Duncan Dayton and Joe Blacker, both in BT-29s. Joe Blacker needs professional mental supervision and treatment...He's very, very fast and very, very disturbed.
Antoine your photography is wonderful, I wish I knew you were there I would I loved to have had a chat with you.

Originally posted by David M. Kane
There should have been two race groups, finally that is what they did on Sunday when they realized the beast they had on there hands.
]

David there is an old racing saying, "if you cannot afford to pay, you cannot afford to play" BUT why are they mixing these classes, THAT is asinine.
Either they should call these "races" controlled exhibitions or treat them as real races, including dealing with what I listed below.

If some drivers are going to go all out, then A: they should probably separate the fast parade drivers from the racers .
B: high speed classes, that did not run together in real racing, should NEVER run together, EVER.

And yes I know what it is like to deal with moron drivers, as I have an MV Agusta that was nearly turned into junk when a woman decided she had to move three feet to the right to turn left.
It turned out to be minor, but when I complained to my father, he said, "If you are worried about the price, sell the bike, no one forced you to buy it."
Bob

Laguna Seca is my local track. I don't know whether its historic races are representative of historics nationwide, but you only have to spectate at the Rolex Monterey Historic Automobile Races at Mazda Laguna Seca Raceway, or whatever fatuous title the event has now, to realize that it's all about attracting a big and blissfully ignorant crowd and then laying on as overblown a show of razzmatazz as pots of money can buy. The result is more akin to circus than racing. What the organizers pass off as racing is hardly more than a pussy-footing procession of fabulously valuable vintage cars driven rather nervously by nice men who are pretending very hard to be racing drivers. (With the notable exception of Mark Gillies--no pretender he--who actually has the temerity and verve to show just how fast the 2005 iteration of a 1934 ERA can go in the hands of a driver who's up to the task).

The only racing worth watching is racing on the limit. Yet to spectate at Laguna Seca is to witness a collective disregard for this self-evident truth. So what's the problem? Partly, I'm told, overly restrictive racing rules (can it really be true that a driver may be penalized for an innocent spin that causes someone else to go off?). Also, it appears, the majority of competitors have vastly more money than skill--nice men who are show-offs, and for whom a vintage racer that makes a lot of fierce noises is the preferred ego-massaging accessory.

Don't get me wrong. Some of these cars are important, and it's great that they still work, and they're a joy to behold, even if many are vulgarly overrestored for the Show-Trumps-Go Brigade. Just don't insult me by telling me they're actually being I]raced[/I] at Laguna Seca. They are not. They are being demonstrated.

If not for the weather and the natural beauty of the circuit--and personally, this last time, the chance to talk to Stirling Moss--this parody would be too tedious to waste good money on. (The spectator entry fees are monstrous.)

1. Is it much the same story at other circuits? If so

2. Can anything be done? Or

3. Am I being totally unfair? Inaccurate? Unrealistic?

Perhaps none of this matters. If the ultimate objective is to preserve these cars and keep them running and keep them being seen, and if pretend racing is the means to the end, so be it.

But I won't bother to watch it.

Results at:

http://www.svra.com/...OpenDocument#rr

Looks like the green and white car is a Devin-Jag

Vince H.

Originally posted by Bob Riebe


"if you cannot afford to pay, you cannot afford to play"

Bob I am sorry to contradict, my intention is not to be unpolite,
but this only a rhyme married with a concept.
The reality is that people who can afford to pay some amounts of money,
they do it with good will, becasue this leave a lot of persons outside the nets,
and only a few inside the race track. An elite.
This an unsaid true.

You have to re-read the David Kane's posts and imagine some amount of money fly away from Your wallet, and not to race because You have to recover physically.

My best regards,
MonzaDriver.

Originally posted by Xian
The result is more akin to circus than racing. What the organizers pass off as racing is hardly more than a pussy-footing procession of fabulously valuable vintage cars driven rather nervously by nice men who are pretending very hard to be racing drivers. (With the notable exception of Mark Gillies--no pretender he--who actually has the temerity and verve to show just how fast the 2005 iteration of a 1934 ERA can go in the hands of a driver who's up to the task).

The only racing worth watching is racing on the limit. Yet to spectate at Laguna Seca is to witness a collective disregard for this self-evident truth. So what's the problem? Partly, I'm told, overly restrictive racing rules (can it really be true that a driver may be penalized for an innocent spin that causes someone else to go off?). Also, it appears, the majority of competitors have vastly more money than skill--nice men who are show-offs, and for whom a vintage racer that makes a lot of fierce noises is the preferred ego-massaging accessory.

Dear Xian,
I dont know if all this acrimony is an outlet, ( in this case the forum is the right place.....)
but in any case in my opinion you have to think another time about Your opinions.
We have this "pretending" drivers, and on the other side what you call it " racing on limit "
what we have:
tyres that dont permit you even a little oversteering, you loose seconds,
Wings, ground effect, every sort of aereodinamic concepts, that keep the car stuck to the ground
and the driver cannot do nothing, he have to wait until all this phenomenons happens over his car.
Tracton control, software, software to accelerate, software to brake, software to think about race tactics. I wonder if not even the steering action is governed by software.......
Sponsor, Sponsor, Sponsor, and I' ve never understood a little sticker at the bottom of a Wing's side plate, what publicity is............Do you?
So at the limit of what? At the limit of politics, taxes, states of the art engineereeng, surely not at the limit of the art of driving.

People of Historic Racing Grand Prix are rich, well otherwise?
Did you ever noticed a salary person at the wheel of a Ferrari's challenge car?
The real important thing is that they spent their money for a passion, ( also our)
they are pretending and drove nervously, of course, those are really racing cars, real F1,
no software do the job for you.
They are no good........it doesn't matter.......... they are learning the art of driving.
I really would like to see Sebastian Bourdais into one of those cockpit, for me he would be no good even to put togheter a Grand Prix lenghts I mean all those laps without to damage the car.

My best regards to you.
MonzaDriver.

Originally posted by Gary C
Antoine, who was running that Lotus 79? Is it Duncan Dyaton's car?

I dont know....
Have a look at http://www.svra.com/
The lotus 79 was a bit not a this place there!

Originally posted by philippe charuest
its a trend i think goodwood did the same kind of screaning this year . some competitors were not invited , a small question about those road atlanta pictures what is that two tone green and white car (img0798-img0799) is it a scarab .

It's a Devin, Joel explained me, with a V8 under the hood? I don't remember!
(EDIT wait... it's a Jag engine... it's on the grill!)




I have to admit I was also a bit scared by the mix of cars in certain classes. Especially the lone single-seater in the middle of Mustangs, Corvetes and all heavy stuff.... bit insane...
Other than that, there wasn't much of racing anyway.... not many going side by side in a bend or braking late... but maybe the real racing was in hidden bends, away from the control tower?

EDIT Firs time I brought my step-daughter, 9 years old, to a race and she didn't mind the noise at all and she was the one asking several times, during the 10 o'colck break on Sunday, when the cars were going to race:)

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Antoine

The close shave was between Duncan Dayton and Joe Blacker, both in BT-29s. Joe Blacker needs professional mental supervision and treatment...He's very, very fast and very, very disturbed.
Antoine your photography is wonderful, I wish I knew you were there I would I loved to have had a chat with you.

Were you racing? which car? Would have been nice meeting you too!
Saw the TNFer's Lola Can-ams with Joel but the owner was busy in his motorhome on Saturday.. thought I could meet him the next day but he wasn't there anymore.

Phil Harris was in the Lotus 79, several years ago he won the Historic Grand Prix event at Watkins Glen. He's quick particularly in his Brabham BT-18. He also has a March 79B which he races regularly.

Whenever he has pasted me, I never noticed he was exhibiting anything but his wagging tail. I know this isn't going to come across correctly, but how many of you have actually even tried to race a car. Sure there are guys, like me at 64 who have more passion than bravery or skill, but we're out there...and not all of us are rich. The 20/80 rule applies in Historics too. Face, the world is full of spectators rather than participants, otherwise it wouldn't be so messed up.

I'm sorry I ever bought the subject up...oh! by the way, the total bill for the meathead accident at
Road America was $2 Million US. You can do a lot with $2M...

I have never done Monterey, never will and anyone who wastes their time and money going there
gets just what they deserves.

And yes, there was a lot going on at the backside of the course including 3 totalled Sports Racers
in turn 3 due to poor flagging and meathead response to what flagging there was!

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette


It's a Devin, Joel explained me, with a V8 under the hood? I don't remember!
(EDIT wait... it's a Jag engine... it's on the grill!)

well im litle puzzle , i see 4 exhaust on the side.and theres the "bossage "on the hood .it look more like a big v8 .wich would be normal on a devin SS, the whole shape of the nose is untypical of the devin too,maybe its a jaguar frame(xk120?) with a big american v8 whith a devin body .jaguillac style

Antoine:

I was in the White March 76B #01, my wife Shairon was in the #31 Green/Yellow Lotus 22. She had to drop out after the Thursday test day when the right a-arm pulled out of the frame. We found the track to be very bumpy in some spots, particularly through turn 7, I thought I was going to shake a tooth filling out of my mouth.

We were parked next to GMT on the lower paddock.

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette



Saw the TNFer's Lola Can-ams with Joel but the owner was busy in his motorhome on Saturday.. thought I could meet him the next day but he wasn't there anymore.

I was not there on Sunday because I blew up the Budweiser motor Thursday, the Sony motor Friday, lost brakes on the Sunoco car Saturday, and the T70 coupe does not have any pistons in it . I was simply out of cars to break, so I loaded up and headed home. I wish you had knocked on the door of the motorhome as I was inside preparing chicken and bratwursts to grill just in case you guys showed up.

My opinion on the topic of this thread is that it all boils down to a compromise. It is impossible to have a race as competitive as the original series because cars are lumped together by series without regard to the year in which the car ran, so you have 1966 Can Am cars running with 1968(Or 1974) Can Am cars and how could the 1966 car be competitive. I am the first to admit that my driving ability is not on a level with Keke Rosberg or Mark Donohue or Patrick Galliard, but can we as historic race car owners get just a little bit of credit for taking our cars out on the track where they might be enjoyed by people that remember them from their "day" ? We are NOT there to provide the spectators with the best racing action they have ever seen, and it beats the crap out of a static display "car show". We as a whole do not drive that well(although some do as the pace in some groups beats the times from the Petite Lemans), and the cars are old and fragile. I had a great time following a Porsche 908 for 7 laps, and giving rides for charity, and looking at all the great cars that show up. I really do not care if spectators come or not. They can be irritating, like driving up in a Volvo and telling me my car is the wrong shade of blue, so it is only fitting that it irritates them that I can't drive as well as the original driver. At least I'm out there participating, and I'm having a lot of fun.It is racing with a compromise, that's all. Try it sometime and you will agree that it is absolutely competitive racing, especially during the qualifying races.
I have also made a lot of great friends through vintage racing. It is certainly worth the effort I put into it. SVRA runs a tight ship and deserves a round of applause for organizing something so difficult to organize. Please knock on the door next time and let me buy you a beer.
Best,
Johan

Thank you Johan, well said.

Sorry to hear about those problems and not daring knocking on your door, Johan

well..i think i'll stand up for both vintage racing and the monterey historics ...i have raced at every event from '75 to '04...i have run big v8's to 750 cc abarths, gt's to open wheelers,the oldest car was a '08 cadillac [dewar trophy model] the newest was a '65 super seven cosworth..i have won a race, came in last many times, dnf'ed , been black flagged,and finished " middle pack" most often.so i figure i have some perspective here. first of all, dealing with the earles is no different than any racing organization..i just started early and got used to it...[altho the entry fee always did irk me..especially wheh i did a season of pre-war dirt events and was paid STARTING MONEY by the organizer] anyway..as a driver it's the best seat in the house...tho one does have to adjust a bit ; when i was on the track with mark gillies he was fast!! however one soon realizes while i'm driving my as original,1930 spec 35b bugatti on factory alloy wheels [3.25" rim width thank you] he's not only on methanol but huge tires and > cough< driving someone elses car...so- call me a old cranky fart that started this business as a young hotfooted kid- but i still have to say that hey! nobody handed me these cars or pleaded with me to please drive them..i worked my ass off and i had the time of my life out on the track!

and just like "real" racing, there will be speed differences...if you're in a slower car you watch your mirrors and get out of the way..pretty simple actually...the main difference is i would get lapped in my 1.5 liter bug by p.hill in a 4.5 liter bug; as i drifted outside the line to let him by [hanging on for all i'm worth] he passes on the inside at the apex and casually waves in the middle of a perfect four wheel one handed drift ! that is to me the essence of vintage racing.

i will admit that a majority of my "carreer" has been in open wheel pre-war cars..after a while you get to know the guys you race with-who's fast,who's not, how they drive etc...it makes for exciting yet relatively safe racing....

and if ANYONE cares to comment on my on track abilities or judgements made while racing i would ask them to put their ass in the seat of bug [theirs] with only a lap belt ,cable brakes, and on 4.5" wide tires approaching turn 2 at laguna at just under the ton...are you really going to go for it ???think about it.....cheers!

Originally posted by dbw
mark gillies...was fast!! however one soon realizes while i'm driving my as original,1930 spec 35b bugatti on factory alloy wheels [3.25" rim width thank you] he's not only on methanol but huge tires

All kudos to you for your enthusiasm and for the fact that your Bugatti is to authentic spec, unlike so many of these "vintage racers," which are far removed from authenticity. My question wasn't really to do with whether a heavily modernized ERA is faster than an authentic Bugatti (I was careful to call the ERA a "2005 iteration"). In fact the speed differential is so great now that it seems lunacy to have them "racing" on the same track at the same time. However I guess this is the norm as it (a) makes for bigger grids, (b) crams more cars into any given day's racing, © brings in more dosh from participants (but more fool the competitors for paying), (d) creates more of a "spectacle" to attract bigger crowds and (e) brings in more dosh from spectators (and more fool the spectators for paying).

There can be no doubt that the event is predicated on quantity, not quality--the greater the quantity, the fatter the profits. So vintage "racing" (at Laguna Seca, anyway) is not about the quality of the racing. It's about the quantity of product coming off the production line: the banal and venal mindset of a manufacturer of widgets.

I think it's sad, and I think it could be put right if only this mindset could be altered. (Fat chance.)

and if ANYONE cares to comment on my on track abilities or judgements made while racing i would ask them to put their ass in the seat of bug [theirs] with only a lap belt ,cable brakes, and on 4.5" wide tires approaching turn 2 at laguna at just under the ton...are you really going to go for it ???think about it.....cheers!

Sure, I understand the timidity, it seems nothing less than sanity to me. But if you don't "go for it," it's not racing. It's showing the car in motion; showing it off; demonstrating it. A worthy enough activity for a vintage car, but not the activity described in the event's billing--not the activity being sold. I just think it might be best for gingerly-driven cars like these to be weeded out and put in an event of a different nature: a nice brisk demonstration run, where the crowd can see and hear them in motion and not have to buy the lie that this is racing.

Then the races can be given over to the racers without fear of them tripping over mobile chicanes. And any overly restrictive racing rules can be revised accordingly to allow the racers to get on with it. So that we, the spectators, can see drivers "going for it" in an authentic racing manner.

Otherwise these words are devalued:

racecourse, raceway: a course for racing
race: a contest of speed

Even in America, now officially a nation of make-believe where a government official accuses an enquiring journalist of the crime of "living in the reality-based world," just to call it racing doesn't make it racing. It has to be racing.

To repeat my proviso: My views are informed solely by what I've seen at Laguna Seca. So maybe it's just a local problem.

Ten, maybe fifteen, hell maybe it was twenty years ago (I know now, what my dad said happens to time when you get older) a gentleman or men, wanted to start a pro vintage racing series, in the US.
The vintage racer organizers, from what I read and was told, jumped on him like pirrahna on a stray pig, so if they want to put on high priced parades, and there is not one damn thing wrong with drivers wanting to do that, let those who want to actually race the old cars do just that.

Some how there has to be a vintage sanction organized which can do both at once, it would be more enjoyable and safer for all.
Bob

Bob have you ever been to an event, say at Road America, and watched Duncan Dayton or Larry Connor race amongst others?

John Medley might comment here on the day he joined the flaggies to watch events at Gnoo Blas...

I'm very sure that there are cars that appear to be going very slowly to the onlookers that are frightening the wits out of the drivers.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm very sure that there are cars that appear to be going very slowly to the onlookers that are frightening the wits out of the drivers.

That's one of the sad things about it. The cars are going very slowly and they are frightening the wits out of the drivers. It's nuts for them to be let loose with others that are actually racing.

Originally posted by Xian
That's one of the sad things about it. The cars are going very slowly and they are frightening the wits out of the drivers. It's nuts for them to be let loose with others that are actually racing.

Another point with which I wholeheartedly agree...

There are drivers who just shouldn't be out there. But my comment really was about cars that simply look slow when being driven near their limits.

Originally posted by dbw
...the main difference is i would get lapped in my 1.5 liter bug by p.hill in a 4.5 liter bug; as i drifted outside the line to let him by [hanging on for all i'm worth] he passes on the inside at the apex and casually waves in the middle of a perfect four wheel one handed drift ! that is to me the essence of vintage racing.

Never had the opportunity to be on track with Phil Hill, but Hurley Haywood has waved at myself on numerous occasions while in the apex with the window net down on his Porsche.

Really kind of special.

Henry

i am more than happy to hear comments on driving, relative speeds, mixed classes,experienced drivers etc. from anyone that's been out there doing it.....if you want to complain about the races that you watched or how much it cost to do so then please be my guest...otherwise -


Xian..you live close by...we should go for a couple of rides...perhaps up highway 1..i'll take you up to 150 or so in my ferrari and we can have a pleasant chat at that speed....then you can ride shotgun in the 35b and if you haven't peed your pants by 90 or so i'll buy lunch.

Originally posted by David M. Kane
;) Is was nice to meet Jacngilles who stopped by for a visit and both Shairon and enjoyed the chat that went well outside the realm of just racing. Hopefully he can post some of his photos.

Sadly, I'm still usin a dinosaur film camera and my scanner ist kaput.

The Vintage Racing group speed differences are no different than the Petite LeMans . An Audi R8 is faster than a Porsche GT3 and I dare say the level of skill is not that great in the Petite Lemans as evidenced by the first turn of the race shunt caused by Weaver this year. Xiang (rymes with ching ?), the Monterrey Historics are geared more towards exhibition than most of the other racing venues,and with 450 participants there is not much track time available. Many of those cars only run that one event all year and may be on old tires etc., but I think you would be better off at another type of race or just stay home and watch Nascar. It really is not for "everybody". At the least go out and get an old Jaguar or MG and give us a chuckle as you "go for it" in the corkscrew.

Originally posted by dbw


Xian..you can ride shotgun in the 35b and if you haven't peed your pants by 90 or so i'll buy lunch.

Deal! (My posts were simply a fiendish plot to maneuver you into this challenge .) I adore 35Bs and yours surely can't be any more scary than 70 downhill in an Austin 7 Ulster with brakes the size of cufflinks or 120 in a Monza Alfa on secondary roads, or racing an XK120 on stock drum brakes (after two laps, what brakes?). But the bladder may be weaker now. I'll bring Depends.

Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
...the Monterrey Historics are geared more towards exhibition than most of the other racing venues,and with 450 participants there is not much track time available. Many of those cars only run that one event all year and may be on old tires etc... At the least go out and get an old Jaguar or MG and give us a chuckle as you "go for it" in the corkscrew.

Thank you Schkee--so it really does seem to be a Monterey thing. I've just realized that part of the problem is I'm more used to the VSCC and HSCC races in England, where it's all much more balls-out. And thanks for the suggestion of making a fool of myself in an old Jaguar! I did just that centuries ago and I'd love to do it again but I'm just too old a fool now, and I'd be too hazardous to other drivers' health!

What you do with your balls whilst driving is not important. The point is , can you drive an xk120 as fast today as you could 20 years ago ? If not, there goes vintage racing, because young guys today do not even know what an xk 120 is much less want to race one, unless of course they saw one at Monterrey and developed an interest. We beat the crap out of British vintage racers all the time. You need to come to an HSR GTP race, or a BOSS race, or a group 6 or 7 race. Check out the pictures from last year....
http://www.pbase.com/atrltd/bric2005

Here's a little of my experience vintage racing at the Monterey Historics from 1978 to 2005.

I've raced at Laguna Seca since 1978, I started out in a car that was terrible! It couldn't stop well and with so much power it was scary, shifting and handling was poor too. I was afraid to get close enough to pass slower cars because I couldn't stop as well as they could. Nothing like starting out with a Can-Am car with problems and NO on-track experience! After running a lot of events I eventually figured out how to drive it better, and fixed most of the problems with my car. I certainly was one of those guys poking along near the back of the pack, although I have to say I was still passing some others out there.

Now I'm faster, I started 12th finished 9th last August, but I've got a 1965 Lola T-70 and it just isn't ever going to be as fast as a Big Block McLaren. Racing my car has been one of the most challenging things I've done in my life, and I've done it all by myself. I started out making a living by driving tractor on our farm earning hourly wages 12 hour days, 6 days a week, I worked on my car in the evenings and sundays when I could. Yes, I'm older now and better off, not still on that tractor all day, now I'm fixing them, I but still work 6 day weeks and use my precious sundays to get the car prepared for events. I never thought much about how much effort it took to get a car ready to race until I tried to do it myselfl I used to walk the paddock at Laguna Seca at pro races and bad mouth the little guys, "look at that guy! Ha Ha". Well, I quit doing that once I started doing it myself. I've also had the thrill of being on the track with all of the wonderful cars I'd peered at over the fence while they roared by. I've "raced" with Jackie Stewart, George Follmer, Denny Hulme, Jergin Barth, Hans Stuck, John Morton, and a bunch of others, of course they were passing me!

Most vintage classes have a fiew guys up front or near the front who are very good drivers and they have a good race, keep in mind they drive very expensive cars, there is no emphasis by Steve Earle on winning, BUT there is great penalty for making a mistake. Many back in the pack either have car problems or lack experience, or BOTH. Lapping them should be done with caution, lest you become entangled with them. Since the motorcycle race "upgrades" were reciently done to Laguna Seca racetrack, the gravel traps are now 18" deep, and we were warned to "spin somewhere else" or for sure we would need to be towed out of them if we went in, the gravel spills out on the track and causes secondary spins or flat tires. The Can-Am class does not allways get invited to the Monterey Historics, if we screw up, we won't be asked back for many years, if ever, - there is great potential to have a serious wreck with these cars, and more likelyhood of driver injury than say, a vintage Trans-Am class.

Some non-related track experiences I've seen or heard of:
A friend of mine made a "mistake" in his McLaren and it cost him $50,000. to have the car repaired. If that happened to me, I'd be out of business for several years if I didn't get hurt in the proccess, a scary thought. Another friend, Carl Moore, broke both his feet at Laguna in a F1 car a fiew years back, I see he now walks funny. Years ago at Laguna I came around old turn 4 (short original course) and came upon a front wheel with attached A arms sitting right on the racing line with various other parts and pieces of a M8F McLaren scattered all over the track. This year there was a LOT of OIL spread on the track and it was just awful on Friday, it got a bit better on Saturday, but I had to be very watchful for new streaks of oil on the track. A fiew years back a Big Block McLaren sprung an oil leak and sprayed a 3 foot wide oil path all through turn 9. several cars spun out, including the race leader, the second place car then assumed the lead and won,
(Porsche pro driver in the Donnohue 917 (Jergin Barth? and Bud Bennet in a Shadow, but somehow I spotted it and tiptoed through it and finished the race.

I pay $450 entry fee to race in the Historics plus all the other expenses, and I'm having fun, but putting myself and my car at risk, so there's some conflict within me, I'm also not a rich guy who can just go buy another finished car to race, or have my "man" fix it for me. When I race, I have the devil on one sholder saying "go for it" and the angel on the other telling me to "be careful" once the start takes place, the adrenalin starts flowing and the little angel starts getting hard to hear over the sound of my heart pumping and the engines roaring. When I've finished my race and things went well, I have a great sense of relief and instantly feel thirsty, hungry, tired, but happy, when things go bad, I wonder why I'm doing this, who do I think I am, - trying to race a Can-Am car?

As paying customer, you shoud be able to see what you want to see, however you need to understand what is going on with the drivers. If you were in their position you would see things in a different light. If you want to see "good" racing at the Historics, then you have to search for it here and there within each class, it isn't going to be like pro racing, - unfortunately. Back in the day, even Can-Am and other classes had some outdated cars back in the pack, or cars/drivers limping to the finish, not every race was a edge-of-seat thriller.

I hear that in England there is a lot of very seriously driven vintage races, they don't putt around like we do but also I've been told the cars are not very original, at least the Can-Am cars. I guess there isn't much penalty for crashing over there, or much worry about it.

If you personally knew some of the drivers running in the race it would make it a lot more fun to watch. Also many many drivers will spend the time to tell you all about their cars and even let you sit in them for a photo. Try that at the pro races some time! To me vintage events are more about learning about the cars than wheel to wheel racing, but occasionally I have seen some awsome driving by some very talented vintage drivers.
David

Originally posted by Xian


That's one of the sad things about it. The cars are going very slowly and they are frightening the wits out of the drivers. It's nuts for them to be let loose with others that are actually racing.

Sorry Xian, if I insist upon this matter.
But you really dont understand that to drive for example a Brabham or a March of the 1975,
is much more difficult than a Benetton of the 1995 ?
Dont tell me that because the driver of the Benetton goes around a corner 50 mph plus,
in respect to the Brabham's one you think he is better.
The Historic Grand Prix Racing, choosen a period of racing from 1966 until 1983.
Well they understood everything about european races.............and they are Americans.......
About the fact that those car are very much rebuild............ how it could be different.................
and those person spent a lot of money in order to get back the car toward the original spectrum.

Or maybe do you think it's more "racing" or "tecnological" the wings's side plates of today F1,
bigger than necessary in order to carry the sponsor's sticker.

Think about what of this two different " enviroment" I mention deserve more respect.
MonzaDriver.

Originally posted by David Pozzi
Here's a little of my experience vintage racing at the Monterey Historics from 1978 to 2005.....

I pay $450 entry fee to race in the Historics plus all the other expenses, and I'm having fun, but putting myself and my car at risk, so there's some conflict within me, I'm also not a rich guy who can just go buy another finished car to race, or have my "man" fix it for me. When I race, I have the devil on one sholder saying "go for it" and the angel on the other telling me to "be careful" once the start takes place, the adrenalin starts flowing and the little angel starts getting hard to hear over the sound of my heart pumping and the engines roaring. When I've finished my race and things went well, I have a great sense of relief and instantly feel thirsty, hungry, tired, but happy, when things go bad, I wonder why I'm doing this, who do I think I am, - trying to race a Can-Am car?.....

If you personally knew some of the drivers running in the race it would make it a lot more fun to watch. Also many many drivers will spend the time to tell you all about their cars and even let you sit in them for a photo. Try that at the pro races some time! To me vintage events are more about learning about the cars than wheel to wheel racing, but occasionally I have seen some awsome driving by some very talented vintage drivers.
David

Brilliant post, David... Bravo!

I admire your dedication to your passion. I can read between the lines and know that test days are scant, opportunities for you to really get to know your car are rare. You do well just staying on the track.

Everybody needs to understand these things...

David has taken a lot of time to help me with my car as well...
Great post ......!

So what I understand or miss-understand is that we, spectators, must not expect some 100% racing at historic races.
Meaning that some majority are there just to have some track-time with their cars but don't feel like actually racing and produce some results? I understand than repairs and injuries are costly... but aren't those things part of motor racing, as death, when you consider buying a racing-car and go racing?
What I understand is if I want to race in historic racing in the US.. I wouldn't be accepted or I would be black-flagged several times because of really wanting to produce results and go for it, for the best finish? That would be a waste of money racing here then... correct?

No, Antoine, that's not what's being said at all...

David has explained enough for us to know that he drives hard, sometimes harder than it might be prudent to do, but that it's difficult for him to justify doing so. And sometimes he will back off when a pro would keep the boot in, because in the final analysis he lacks the race experience and the cash to take those ultimate chances.

I don't think you could quantify it in lap times, but I'm sure that there are those who wouldn't be more than a second a lap off the pace while keeping that little in reserve.

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
"So what I understand or miss-understand is that we, spectators, must not expect some 100% racing at historic races."

Antoine, racing a Can Am event today in a 1966 Lola T70 means racing against cars up to 1974.
How am I supposed to pass a Shadow DN4 ? Instead I am racing as hard as I can but about 5-10 cars back in the pack against a Mclaren MK 1. Look further back in the pack to see good racing.

"Meaning that some majority are there just to have some track-time with their cars but don't feel like actually racing and produce some results?"

The majority are there to race with whomever is in front of them. Like I said, the racing is best in the qualifying races, because by the time the feature race comes around on Sunday the cars are all grided according to best time and passing is not as likely as the driver has to do a better time than ever before AND get around a car that had been faster all weekend. Go to the qualifying races.

" I understand than repairs and injuries are costly... but aren't those things part of motor racing, as death, when you consider buying a racing-car and go racing? "

Yes, this is and always will be the case.

"What I understand is if I want to race in historic racing in the US.. I wouldn't be accepted or I would be black-flagged several times because of really wanting to produce results and go for it, for the best finish? "

We all want to produce results. We do "go for it" as evidenced by the fact that we have purchaced cars, taken driving lessons, got licenses, and shown up at the events ready to race. If you do not yet have a car and have not yet committed to racing, I see no evidence whatsoever that you would drive with very much gusto. You get black flagged for bad driving or for going too slow or driving in a sloppy manner.


"That would be a waste of money racing here then... correct? "

Yes, racing is a waste of money, that is for sure ! Please join us in the wasting of money and buy a car, whatever your budget it can be done. We have a lot of fun, but it is about the cars, not the drivers. It is not for the spectators though. How fast can You go ?

Alright, thank you Ray!
It's just that if a race official came to me after a race, telling me I should calm down or I would be expelled because I'm actually racing, I would telling him to "get lost" or more bluntly "screw you".
I'm just being worried... that's all!
It's like those many threads I read about a death at a track-day in car clubs forums where hell is raised about safety and all... but you have to expect death on a track or you should keep on playing on your Scalectrix track.

Thank you for clarifying, Johan! I just want to be sure we are on the same wave-length.

It's not about how fast could I go but more about do I have the right mindset or/and the right philosophy or approach.
Indeed, I'm really willing to join you all on the track but my goals and planning dictate a concept or team not going on a shoe-string as I wouldn't consider it as a hobby just for fun. I wouldn't want to waste time on silly failures because I came in unprepared and I would already have enough pressure on my shoulders just by wearing race-suit.

I am proud to call myself an Historic Official and not just because I'm over 50

....I love the anticipation on the day knowing that I may see excellent dices, unpredictable and hard won outcomes, magnificent sights, smells and sounds, heros from the past and above all enthusiasts.

I do feel concern for the slower cars amongst the faster ones and also those people who might be a tad out of their depth mixed in with the old hands. I try to give them as much warning as possible with the appropriate Flags.

Keep on doing what ever you feel safe with....and try to have fun.

Wish they could bottle the atmoshere at some Historic meets...

Yes, good point and it is all for fun. Everyone that realizes it is for the fun of it is welcome. Antoine,
We did a new thing at the Atlanta historics and gave rides to kids between races and they loved it.
Some of the kids were in their 50's, and they loved it the most. I think we are all on the same page, I'm just saying to "try it as a competitor" before getting too judgemental because otherwise your opinion is only that of a spectator rather than a participant. We would welcome you to join us.

Johan, I'm not judging you and I've seen you on track last Spring. I didn't and don't want people to get defensive.

About your charity rides, it was a great idea and I can tell you that my wife, her daughter and I would have stood in the long line for a ride:)

Antoine, now I am embarassed, as I remember the Budweiser car going so slow last spring at Road Atlanta.
I WAS NOT DRIVING IT, I swear. It was a guy trying to sort out the fresh transmission. He got out of it all sweaty and said he did not feel comfortable in group 7, but we did get it sorted out. I was driving the almost as slow Sony car. We won the group 7 Can Am class in those cars for 2004 overall but in 2005 we have just broken down time after time.Yesterday I tried out a new engine and missed a shift. I am driving in Porsche Club this weekend and it will probably blow. Nothing seems to ever go just right in racing. It is very challenging to put the pieces together and then disappointing when I screw it up. Time to restore both cars this winter.I have to sell a car to pay for it. I had hoped to buy a television with remote control this year for Christmas for the kids but it will have to wait till next year now. John Paul Jr. was to drive the Budweiser car last weekend but the Hurricane kept him away. I AM trying to make it more fun for you to come and watch ! Look for us (look out for us) next year !
275GTB, I'm glad they do not bottle the atmosphere in our motorhome after 5 guys have been living in it for 5 days. It sort of smells like moldy socks. BUT, the cookouts, comraderie, and the feeling of meeting challenges as a team make it all worth while.
Johan