Professional racing at Goodwood

Not sure if there is a similar thread or not, but here goes:

I've just read MotorSport's report of the Goodwood Revival, which it quite rightly labels it "event of the month".

What stood out was that the drivers mentioned on the first page of the report were almost entirely current or recent professional drivers - namely:

Modern:
Pirro, Franchitti, Berger, Rahal, Minassian, Hardman, St James, Fitzpatrick, Liuzzi, Karthikeyan

Historic:
Lindsay, Lynn, Young

Both (e.g. older professionals)
Whitmore, Wilson, Oliver, Tambay

Presumably these stars attract the public, but I always thought that historic racing was about the cars, I hope we don't end up with historic racing becoming professionals racing old cars.

It is good to see the old stars out, like Brooks, Moss, even Oliver & Tambay, but employing current drivers suggests that someone thinks historic racing is a competition.

Given that the majority of the spectators at the high profile, professionally marketed British historic events are not necessarily cognisant of the genre, it is inevitable that former or even latter day international racers and F1 drivers are a major attraction.

Many punters attend these meetings precisely because they can see these people close to in real life (i.e. not the other side of a chain link fence with a hole cut in it), something almost impossible at modern F1 or similar venues unless you are press, team, sponsor or official status.

I agree entirely with Mr. Morley's sentiments but anything F1 intrudes into every section of motor sport simply because it is such a commercially successful brand and so well hyped. Nevertheless the best 'historic' racers are still pretty good crowd pullers as anybody who watches the Sussex Trophy sports car race at the Goodwood Revival will know, they stay to watch even though this is the last race of the weekend.

As for the point about professionals racing historic cars, I'm afraid the first 6 or so of most historic racing grids have long been dominated by 'professionals', albeit often past their modern racing sell by date. Also my experience of British historic racing over the past 30 odd years is that amateur or professional, it makes little difference to their attitude. Either you are competitive and want to win or do well, or you just want to drive round comfortably. If the latter appeals then America used to be more relaxed and less cut and thrust, although that might have changed now.

The Tourist Trophy cars were invariably driven by the F1 stars in period, so there is some consistency there. I recall the early Christies/Coys event having top people in the GT cars at least, (I have not checked the prohgrammes) Where else would I have seen Ddenis Hulme racing a Zagato Aston?

If nothing else, we have a chance to see the cars driven pretty near the limit, albeit at the risk of it being by drivers who may have little mechanical sympathy for the cars in a "replaceable" sport, ( an argument for racing perfect copies?) with the likelihood of more accidents through simply overcooking it. I make no comment about the obnoxious rise in the perceived need for physical contact, and consequences.

The alternative is the US style, no overtaking or outbraking into corners, which is not what Charles March and team set out to do.

Anything raced on the limit by someone who knows what they are doing is a joy to see. It usually makes for good stuff further down the field. qv Whizzo in the Morris Minor a year or two back.

Additionally, if the "names" attract more new spectators into the events so much the better. That is one of the key elements of the sccess of the Festival and the Revival.

Who Knows? Perhaps some of these new people might even get as far as reglarly buying a copy of Motor Sport magazine, easily picked out by its red masthead, provided they are patient enough to actually find where they are reputedl on sale.

My own concern about Historics is the movement away from original spec of some of the vehicles, whether this is classed a "continuous development" or out of keeping modifications. You always have a choice about whther you go to watch it.

Talking about Goodwood makes me think what a wasted opportunity young Edwin Jowsey had in the FJ race. We all know he is a rare young talent, hopefully destined for a starry future, and as a fellow Yorkshireman, I sincerely wish him well, so why run away and hide in the distance in the FJ race.? Surely winning just another race, in perhaps not the strongest field, was no big deal?

With his qualifying laps' speed advantage, perhaps he could have feigned gear selection problems on the straight after a couple of laps, letting most of the field through, and then proceeded to carve his way through the field, making for a great race, ****and emphasising his talent. I recall in period FJ, along with F3, was three abreast , five deep into many corners, or at least not srung out too much, especially at a fast circuit like Goodwood.

****It has been done before, methinks. I know motor bike racing is tactically different, but think we have seen some of that over the years at Goodwood.

Getting back to Peter's thread point , the driver line up is a key aspect of the Revival . It is what has become established and expected. The genie will not fit back int the bottle.

Moreover there is a fine line between the very rich and talented Gentlemen racers and the Professonal Drivers. Messrs Dayton, Bscher and Sytner spring to mind for pure speed and competitiveness , coupled with the wherewithal to make dreams into facts. It is an inevitable evolution. The fashionable-ness of the sport attracts rich people, of necessity, cf top horseracing, yachting etc etc, and (perish the analogy....) football, just as it did with Rubgy.

The alternative is to contemplate the event without these people, and many of the cars as a consequence. So where else would I see a Matich or a Sadler, or the Daytona Cobras. How long a list do you want?. The Festival serves the same purpose, perhaps not all things to all people, but the best compromise you are likely to get as an overall package, rather than just from the driver's view.

No doubt you have views.

Roger Lund

Originally posted by bradbury west
Getting back to Peter's thread point , the driver line up is a key aspect of the Revival . It is what has become established and expected. The genie will not fit back int the bottle.

Moreover there is a fine line between the very rich and talented Gentlemen racers and the Professonal Drivers. Messrs Dayton, Bscher and Sytner spring to mind for pure speed and competitiveness , coupled with the wherewithal to make dreams into facts. It is an inevitable evolution. The fashionable-ness of the sport attracts rich people, of necessity, cf top horseracing, yachting etc etc, and (perish the analogy....) football, just as it did with Rubgy.

The alternative is to contemplate the event without these people, and many of the cars as a consequence. So where else would I see a Matich or a Sadler, or the Daytona Cobras. How long a list do you want?. The Festival serves the same purpose, perhaps not all things to all people, but the best compromise you are likely to get as an overall package, rather than just from the driver's view.

No doubt you have views.

Roger Lund

Everyone is right when they say that events like Goodwood give the public a rare opportunity to come close to the stars (& the cars), but that really reflects more upon the sad status of modern racing (in particular F1).

Of course the presence of some very good drivers increases the driving standards and does show the cars at their best, which is always good, but they shouldn't treat the car like a contemporary car.

I don't like the idea of American no overtaking in the corners racing (which several people have told me isn't true - after all Duncan Dayton races there), but I do like the idea that the winner doesn't get a trophy!

There is an increase in the number of people who just turn up and drive and aren't particularly interested in the history of their cars (except for in terms of where it will get them accepted). For example Spencer Elton mentioned that when he offered the factory records of a racing Aston Martin, the current owner said I've got the car why do I need that!
Maybe in these computerised days the history of the car is so well known that the owner doesn't need to keep track of it, but you have to wonder about what his interest in the car really is.

Since circuit hire fees are so high these days it wouldn't be possible to go back to the days of more competitors than spectators, so we will presumably have to accept whatever is necessary to attract the public - and it seems that merely offering the opportunity to see some historic cars in action is not enough.

As someone who regularly lets other people race my cars I'm getting worried that I might have to start paying someone to do so!!

Best stop rambling and start packing - back in a week or so.

Peter,

There are very many people like myself, who value enormously the generosity of folk like you, and Nick Mason, to single out a real enthusiast with the right cars, who let others drive the cars. Whatever, it is still a bonus for oiks like me to see these cars driven and raced. Twas ever a rich man's sport and will remain so, increasingly so, I fear, as it has become so fashionable.

Other than VSCC events and Goodwood , few historic events appeal to me other than for the opportunity of seeing some of the rarer cars, and not necesarily those raced at the front, which is why the earlier Festivals were, IMHO, the best. qv Maserati 151 series and Ferrari 121 inter alia.

If Lord March only provided what suited me, he would sell far fewer tickets. It's showbiz after all.

One other thing which may be a point. I understand that many of the top cars, and owners, are invited, but with the specific proviso that top drivers are allowed, and indeed allocated to these cars. Bit of a double edged sword I fear.

I think I recall reading somewhere that Berger would only do the TT in a lightweight Jag or someting, and others were equally picky. That must be a hard one to call for the owner and Goodwood.

Presumably there is some form of over-riding insurance or assurance to cover these risks? I am sure it is not on the "you bend it you mend it " basis. Some of us appreciate whatever goes into making it happen. Thank you.

Regarding US racing. Was dear old Innes Ireland not barred form one event for the statutory 13 months ie the following year, for a mishap of some sort, or have things now changed.?
I get the impression from talking in the Goodwood paddock to some of the visiting mechanics that the level of, shall we say "competitiveness" , among the resident drivers is something of a shock.

I still feel sorry for the chap who turned out in 2004 in his utterly immaculate and genuine Daytona Cobra only to take it home to the the US of A with nary a straight panel on it. An he was not a front runner. That must colour his views with a $6 million car. Perhaps another reason for racing perfect copies, or were there enough of those there already in some of the races?. BTW I have no problem with copies etc provided no one tries to pass it off as the genuine thing. Perhaps there should be a separate, formal, register for such copies, fakes, recreations etc, provided they are exactly as raced in period, especially if they were listed with major auction houses and relevant magazines etc. We would know where we are then

I have no problem with a perfect replica P4 or Dino or 250F etc etc etc etc or others of choice, delete/insert as applicable , howling round a circuit at 10/10ths . I see little merit in wrecking a "correct" car which then loses its provenance/originality, call it what you will, after a modern reconsruction. We have enough of that with run of the mill concours standard "restorations" ruining originality.

Going on a bit, sorry.

But thanks for making the cars available.

RL

Originally posted by bradbury west
Peter,

There are very many people like myself, who value enormously the generosity of folk like you, and Nick Mason, to single out a real enthusiast with the right cars, who let others drive the cars. Whatever, it is still a bonus for oiks like me to see these cars driven and raced. Twas ever a rich man's sport and will remain so, increasingly so, I fear, as it has become so fashionable.

I still feel sorry for the chap who turned out in 2004 in his utterly immaculate and genuine Daytona Cobra only to take it home to the the US of A with nary a straight panel on it. An he was not a front runner. That must colour his views with a $6 million car. Perhaps another reason for racing perfect copies, or were there enough of those there already in some of the races?. BTW I have no problem with copies etc provided no one tries to pass it off as the genuine thing. Perhaps there should be a separate, formal, register for such copies, fakes, recreations etc, provided they are exactly as raced in period, especially if they were listed with major auction houses and relevant magazines etc. We would know where we are then

I have no problem with a perfect replica P4 or Dino or 250F etc etc etc etc or others of choice, delete/insert as applicable , howling round a circuit at 10/10ths . I see little merit in wrecking a "correct" car which then loses its provenance/originality, call it what you will, after a modern reconsruction. We have enough of that with run of the mill concours standard "restorations" ruining originality.

I think that must be the first (& probably only time) when any of my cars have been mentioned alongside Nick Mason's - they do tend to occupy different ends of most people's wish lists!! Thank you.

It is hard to imagine how the Cobra Daytona's owner felt, same with the guy who restored an Eagle Weslake and bent it first time out.
A lot of the recent accidents have happened to the non-professional drivers, which might well be an argument for leaving the cars in the hands of professionals.

I too think that perfect replicas should be acceptable (in some cases they can be more accurate than the real car which has been developed during its life), but as you say there is a danger that later on they get passed off as something else - but if owners were encouraged to be honest it is less likely.
Like with the Auto Unions, I wasn't around at the time but sure as hell would like to see one being driven in anger - what is strange though is the one we are most likely to see in anger is the original V-12 car!!
Several owners of original cars have said they wouldn't want to risk their car against a worthless replica, but there are plenty who have damaged or developed their original cars beyond originality.

That last paragraph opens a whole can of worms which I'm glad I will be avoiding during my holiday!

In the end if I had enough money I guess I would trade in the leaky tent for a motorhome and would be tempted to pay someone else to do some of the more tedious tasks.............

Peter

Peter, you call Fitzpatrick a 'modern' professional, I bet you have won yourself a friend for life.

I feel I know what is behind your posting, it is something that bothers most of us with an interest in Historic racing.

I would not turn out to watch a football match if the main attraction was that the ball was the one used in the 1966 World Cup Final. That ball was merely an implement, but a car is part of the action, a car is part of the cast.

Only nostalgia would get me to see the Arsenal side that won the League/Cup Double is they reunited to play again. Actually, I prefer my memories to the reality of advancing age, yet Whitmore and Moss can still turn it on and they are OAPs. I am delighted that I have seen Sir Stilring drift an Aston Martin DBR1 through Woodcote at Goodwood because I missed it first time around.

What about someone like Derek Bell? Derek has to be at Goodwood, he marshalled there as a kid. He had his first race there (he won) and in 1966 he won the last race at Goodwood to be held to an International formula (F3). Derek lives in the area and took part in the campaign to bring racing back to Goodwood. You cannot exclude him just because he is pretty good.

I bumped into Derek in a local supermarket the day after the first Goodwood Revival, he was still pumped up. I figured it was the first time he had raced an Historic car (ie one that was obsolete when he first raced in 1964.) That was right and he would have won in the Cooper-Maserati if it had not gone into neutral fifty yards after the start. He said, "Two-litre car in a two-and-a-half-litre race? Natually, I jumped the start."

I am on friendly terms with Gregor Fiskin, have been for years. I do not understand why he can lap Goodwood in a Cooper-Bristol ten seconds quicker than Mike Hawthorn (or Fangio) when Gregor is running on pump fuel and Hawthorn had nitromethane in his mix in 1952. We have laughed about it and one of Gregor's theories is that his chassis is built true, it was not made by some bloke at Cooper welding together the bits on a primative jig (er, it's a Cooper, Gregor, that is how it should have been made). Then there is the qaulity of the metal of the bearings in the Bristol engine, and so it goes.

If we look at the professional drivers, we should also look at the cars, or not. The Goodwood Revival Meeting is far from perfect, some of the retro-stuff has become a parody, but it is better than most things you can name.

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

If we look at the professional drivers, we should also look at the cars, or not. The Goodwood Revival Meeting is far from perfect, some of the retro-stuff has become a parody, but it is better than most things you can name.

Better than the Silverstone Classic and Spa 6 Hour? Different yes, very entertaining for sure but not certain its better......

Depends on your interests, Simon
(Or maybe your age?)
I regarded the old Silverstone Festivals as the highlight of my year, and maybe they'll return to that level over the next year or two.
But the Goodwood Revival appeals more - even with the gradual trends away from its original form. It remains the closest thing to a time-machine there is.
The Spa 6hrs doesn't rate in my book - better circuit, of course, but the cars are all too modern.
But, as I said, it depends on one's personal interests

there is no doubt that the Goodwood experience is a seducive one and the time warp aspect is a large part of it but somehow it just doesnt excite me as much as the thought of the Silverstone Classic getting back to the Coys days. Maybe its having a greater span of cars (Gp 4, 6 and C for a start). I could see myself going to Silverstone even if I wasnt competing. dont get me wrong I am not knocking Goodwood just saying its not a clear winner, but certainly on the podium.

What I was trying to say is that it's all a matter of opinion, depending on your personal interests. I wouldn't go to a meeting with nothing older than Gp4, Sp6 and Gp C, whereas you obviously would. The Silverstone Classic and/or Spa 6hrs therefore appeals to you more than it does to me.
That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It just means the Silverstone Classic's better for you, the Goodwood Revival's better for me

I think that will be the beauty of Silverstone Classic (certainly was the case with the old Coys - it will span 5 decades so cater for everyone