When I was a kid my uncle in California used to send me American car magazines.
A feature in one...I think it was Road and Track, but could have been Hot Rod or Motor Trend...had an article which caricatured the difference in style between an Indy Roadster and a European F1 car. The single page had a sketch of a Roadster, all chrome and ads, and an F1 car (a 250F I think) made to look all drab with wonky louvres and a rusty exhaust. I didn't know what an Indy Roadster was (this was late fifties I think). The drivers were sketched too, in their differing gear.
Unusually, I didn't keep the magazine, but I can still picture what I am trying describe. Can any of you on the other side of the pond
a. Remember it?
b. Find it for me?...would love to see it again.
An American Magazine Memory
Started by
David Beard
, Oct 27 2005 21:51
31 replies to this topic
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#2
Steve L
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 22:07
Don't know about the original, but I'm pretty sure this was reprinted in a VSCC Bulletin (one of the later large format ones) somewhere between 1992-96.
I can't get to my copies at the moment, but I think it was included next to a report of a VSCC Silverstone meeting?
I can't get to my copies at the moment, but I think it was included next to a report of a VSCC Silverstone meeting?
#3
Paul Medici
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 22:19
David - I remember it as well. The '250F' had tons of rivets and several dings, and the American driver was smoking a cigar. I'll look around - I know I have it somewhere, maybe SCI.
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#4
WINO
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 22:59
Smoking a cigar? Sounds like Jimmy Bryan.
WINO
WINO
#5
Paul Medici
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 01:35
David - from Sports Cars Illustrated, January 1961
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#6
David Beard
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 07:32
Paul: that's the one...Brilliant!
A bit later than I thought, and wrong magazine, but just what I remembered. Good, isn't it?
#7
Paul Medici
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 18:20
David - yes, it is very good and I think I knew what you were inquiring about before I finished reading line three of your post. I had just started buying racing magazines in 1960 and this illustration did leave a lasting impression on me as well.
Interesting how one car was already an antique, and the other was about to become one. There is an article in this issue of SCI about Cooper and Brabham testing at Indy, and a 1938 Jaguar SS100 on sale for $2850 in the Market Place section.
In the Letters section someone wrote that they were cancelling their subscription to SCI because of articles about dragsters, go-karts, and Pontiac's latest offering.
Thank you for your inquiry, it brought back nice memories.
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Interesting how one car was already an antique, and the other was about to become one. There is an article in this issue of SCI about Cooper and Brabham testing at Indy, and a 1938 Jaguar SS100 on sale for $2850 in the Market Place section.
In the Letters section someone wrote that they were cancelling their subscription to SCI because of articles about dragsters, go-karts, and Pontiac's latest offering.
Thank you for your inquiry, it brought back nice memories.
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#8
Lotus23
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 23:50
And of course Brock Yates is still a very active motorsports journalist.
#9
Mike Lawrence
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 10:07
I used to be able to buy Sports Cars Illustrated from a High Street shop in 1960 in England, not just England, deep, dark, Lincolnshire where they still think that the movie, 'Deliverance' is a documentary.
It was not expensive and the quality of production beat anything we had on sale. I recall first reading about the Wankel engine in SCI, it was in class and I never passed the exam I guess SCI was trying to find a new market in the English-speaking world and just hit teenaged nerds, like me. I remember the Crosley-based high school project, the FCA (Future Craftsmen of America). It raced in SCCA Class 'H' and had a body made of papier mache (feel free to add one acute accent, and one circumflex, if you are on top pf Microsoft).
We also used to get very cheap, way out of date, magazines from America. They were 'returns' which were made into bales and used as ballest on ships. They were out of date only in terms of the calendar, an article about George Barris can never be out of date. I still quiver a little when when I hear 'Isky Cams' or 'Moon Wheels'.
It was not expensive and the quality of production beat anything we had on sale. I recall first reading about the Wankel engine in SCI, it was in class and I never passed the exam I guess SCI was trying to find a new market in the English-speaking world and just hit teenaged nerds, like me. I remember the Crosley-based high school project, the FCA (Future Craftsmen of America). It raced in SCCA Class 'H' and had a body made of papier mache (feel free to add one acute accent, and one circumflex, if you are on top pf Microsoft).
We also used to get very cheap, way out of date, magazines from America. They were 'returns' which were made into bales and used as ballest on ships. They were out of date only in terms of the calendar, an article about George Barris can never be out of date. I still quiver a little when when I hear 'Isky Cams' or 'Moon Wheels'.
#10
David Beard
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 10:36
Originally posted by Paul Medici
Interesting how one car was already an antique, and the other was about to become one. .
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Perhaps this is why I imagined the piece to be older...
Why was the 250F chosen as a typical piece of European machinery in 1961?
Every one of the the little quips comes back to me now, especially the one about the Maser driver being of "rakish" appearnce. Who might that be based upon?
#11
David McKinney
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 12:11
(1) Presumably because in 1961 they didn't regard those pesky rear-engined things as proper racing cars
(2) Maybe just a perception of the difference between the real men of oval racing and the playboys from the other side of the pond?
(2) Maybe just a perception of the difference between the real men of oval racing and the playboys from the other side of the pond?
#12
WINO
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 15:23
A January 1961 magazine issue meant that it hit the mailbox by December 1960. In addition, the lag time of U.S. publications was so long, covering events that happened three months earlier, than the article may well have been submitted around the middle of 1960. Who knows how long it took Yates to finish the drawings. It may help explain the use of the 250F illustration, although the car was no longer a contender of course.
It seems as though Yates got the wheelbase of the Indy roadster not quite right. The car looks more like one of those short-wheelbased super modifieds.
WINO
It seems as though Yates got the wheelbase of the Indy roadster not quite right. The car looks more like one of those short-wheelbased super modifieds.
WINO
#13
Mike Lawrence
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 18:16
Don't forget that Bob Drake drove a Maserati 250F in the the 1960 United States GP. The car was #2529, which Fangio drove to victory in the 1957 German GP.
The 250F was the image of Formula One, even in 1960, and it is my theory that it began with those incredible shots of Fangio in a four wheel drift down the hill at Rouen in the French GP. That was the defining image of the late 1950s. There is no great shot of Fangio at the 'Ring, 1957, it has been up to Michael Turner to recreate the flavour of that drive, on canvas.
The 250F was the image of Formula One, even in 1960, and it is my theory that it began with those incredible shots of Fangio in a four wheel drift down the hill at Rouen in the French GP. That was the defining image of the late 1950s. There is no great shot of Fangio at the 'Ring, 1957, it has been up to Michael Turner to recreate the flavour of that drive, on canvas.
#14
WINO
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 18:30
Mike,
Much as I like your column in Vintage Racecar Journal, I have to take issue with the chassis number you mention. Joe Lubin's 250F was raced in the 1960 U.S. GP at Riverside in November 1960 with Bob Drake at the wheel, but it was chassis 2533. Drake qualified in the middle of the last row, 11 seconds off the pole in spite of being upgraded with Birdcage disc brakes upfront. Even the Scarab was 3 seconds faster in qualifying. The 250F finished 13th, 7 laps behind winner Moss, but it was the only car to start the first [1954 Argentine GP] and the last race of the 2.5 liter era.
WINO
Much as I like your column in Vintage Racecar Journal, I have to take issue with the chassis number you mention. Joe Lubin's 250F was raced in the 1960 U.S. GP at Riverside in November 1960 with Bob Drake at the wheel, but it was chassis 2533. Drake qualified in the middle of the last row, 11 seconds off the pole in spite of being upgraded with Birdcage disc brakes upfront. Even the Scarab was 3 seconds faster in qualifying. The 250F finished 13th, 7 laps behind winner Moss, but it was the only car to start the first [1954 Argentine GP] and the last race of the 2.5 liter era.
WINO
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 29 October 2005 - 19:54
Sorry, Mike. Wino's right. It was 2533 (the car Fangio drove in his last F1 Grand Prix)Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Don't forget that Bob Drake drove a Maserati 250F in the the 1960 United States GP. The car was #2529, which Fangio drove to victory in the 1957 German GP.
#16
HDonaldCapps
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Posted 30 October 2005 - 16:02
Paul, Thanks for posting the page from SCI, it is easily one of the more memorable articles from that period. I was rather amazed that it was almost exactly as I remembered it and it has been several years since I have looked at. As David mentions, it is one of those that sticks in your mind for a long time....
#17
Mike Lawrence
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 06:09
Oh sh*t, and I did look up the Sheldon/Rabagliatti 'Black Book'
I think we can agree that Bob Drake drove a Maserati 250F in the 1960 US GP., which is the point specific to the thread.
I think we can agree that Bob Drake drove a Maserati 250F in the 1960 US GP., which is the point specific to the thread.
#18
HDonaldCapps
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 07:35
Mike, Recall that this is TNF and specificity will get you every time. David and Barrie are both capable of inundating you with no end of information on why it was '2533' and not '2529' at Riverside. Most of us have updated our Sheldon/Rabagliatti 'Black Books' so often that they look like they were originally printed in pencil in some cases. Pity the poor historian....
#19
eldougo
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 09:01
TNF'ERS ..........RULE.
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#20
p de vos
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:55
I remember from childhood days a cutaway drawing of Stirling Moss (in either a Car & Driver, Road & Track or maybe Motor Trend), with shock absorbers for muscles, twin choke throat, etc.
Does anyone else remember it or even still have it?
Does anyone else remember it or even still have it?
#21
Wolf
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 12:45
Originally posted by p de vos
I remember from childhood days a cutaway drawing of Stirling Moss (in either a Car & Driver, Road & Track or maybe Motor Trend), with shock absorbers for muscles, twin choke throat, etc.
Does anyone else remember it or even still have it?
Now that's something I'd dearly like to see myself too.
Pls, consider the 'request' seconded. 
#22
Patrick Fletcher
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 12:55
Are the exhaust pipes maybe on the wrong side for a 250F or is it a V12 ?
#23
Paul Medici
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Posted 02 November 2005 - 17:21
David - I hesitate telling you this for fear you become an ebay junkie like me but this issue of SCI is currently up for bid for about 5 bucks. If you decide to bid, contact the seller first and make sure that page 74 is included.
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Don - I am happy you enjoyed the article. I found this in the same magazine and thought you would have a laugh. It was on page 96 under "Miscellaneous."
Notice that ZIP codes had not been invented yet!
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Browsing through old magazines like this can tell us so much about what was really going on at the time. Kind of like a 'literary dig.' Kind of like what TNF is all about.
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Don - I am happy you enjoyed the article. I found this in the same magazine and thought you would have a laugh. It was on page 96 under "Miscellaneous."
Notice that ZIP codes had not been invented yet!
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Browsing through old magazines like this can tell us so much about what was really going on at the time. Kind of like a 'literary dig.' Kind of like what TNF is all about.
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#24
David Beard
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Posted 02 November 2005 - 17:42
Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher
Are the exhaust pipes maybe on the wrong side for a 250F or is it a V12 ?
I was waiting for David McKinney to chip in with that one...and megaphone ends?
Not a V12 with the early louvred body, either?
#25
David Beard
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Posted 02 November 2005 - 17:43
Originally posted by Paul Medici
David - I hesitate telling you this for fear you become an ebay junkie like me .
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Don't worry...I already am
#26
David McKinney
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Posted 02 November 2005 - 19:09
Sometimes you get so close to a subject you don't think any comment is necessaryOriginally posted by David Beard
I was waiting for David McKinney to chip in with that one...and megaphone ends?
Not a V12 with the early louvred body, either?
The prototype V12 ran - at Monaco at least - with megaphones. It also had louvred bodywork, but not exactly the same as in the cartoon, and with a whole lot of lumps and bulges to make everything fit
#27
karlcars
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Posted 03 November 2005 - 16:34
Of course the car is not a 250F, it's a generic old-style GP car as indicated by the exhaust on the wrong side for a Maser.
That was published while I was editor of SCI and I'm delighted that someone turned it up. Yes, we also did the Stirling Moss cutaway in that period. It, and the story with it, is a goodie.
That was published while I was editor of SCI and I'm delighted that someone turned it up. Yes, we also did the Stirling Moss cutaway in that period. It, and the story with it, is a goodie.
#28
HDonaldCapps
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 09:14
Ah, Karl, I have always wondered why I never seemed to be able to get a letter to editor published in SCI or C/D, although I get several very nice replies from you and others in response to some of my points.... 
I remember one writer, I think it was Jan Norbye, writing back in response to something he wrote about the FPF used by S.C. Moss at the '58 Argentine GP (in an article on the Auto Union?) and being incorrect as things turned out, even though I knew it was at the time and said so in reponse to his response. I think DED was there at the time.
I still have a ton of the issues of SCI from about 1955 or 1956 until the name change in April 1961 and C/D until I finally lost all interest in the early 1970s.
Magazines, like the one from which Paul has shown just one page, are incredible time machines.....
I remember one writer, I think it was Jan Norbye, writing back in response to something he wrote about the FPF used by S.C. Moss at the '58 Argentine GP (in an article on the Auto Union?) and being incorrect as things turned out, even though I knew it was at the time and said so in reponse to his response. I think DED was there at the time.
I still have a ton of the issues of SCI from about 1955 or 1956 until the name change in April 1961 and C/D until I finally lost all interest in the early 1970s.
Magazines, like the one from which Paul has shown just one page, are incredible time machines.....
#29
JB Miltonian
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 22:32
I have located the article mentioned by "p de vos" in post #20 of this thread, and confirmed by Mr. Ludvigsen, about the mechanical "Moss Mark III". It is located in Car & Driver, June 1961, pages 53-55. The cutaway drawing is by Gordon Bruce, the text by Brock Yates. The drawing is spread over two pages, so I don't know how to scan and post it here to best effect. Perhaps one of you computer experts could handle it, it's really quite humorous.
#30
David Beard
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 07:57
Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I still have a ton of the issues of SCI from about 1955 or 1956 until the name change in April 1961
Name change? What did it become?
#31
JB Miltonian
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 08:54
The first issue of "Sports Cars Illustrated" came out in July 1955. With the issue of October 1960, it became "Sports Cars Illustrated: Magazine of Car and Driver". In April 1961, it became "Sports Cars Illustrated's Car and Driver". Subsequent issues were titled "Car and Driver" (formerly Sports Cars Illustrated).
The last issue to mention "Sports Cars Illustrated" on the cover was the December 1961 issue.
Mr. Ludvigsen's name appeared on the masthead as Editor of both magazines from December 1959 to January 1962.
I am proud to have complete sets of both SCI and C&D.
The last issue to mention "Sports Cars Illustrated" on the cover was the December 1961 issue.
Mr. Ludvigsen's name appeared on the masthead as Editor of both magazines from December 1959 to January 1962.
I am proud to have complete sets of both SCI and C&D.
#32
Jack-the-Lad
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 18:22
Originally posted by karlcars
Of course the car is not a 250F, it's a generic old-style GP car as indicated by the exhaust on the wrong side for a Maser.
That was published while I was editor of SCI and I'm delighted that someone turned it up. Yes, we also did the Stirling Moss cutaway in that period. It, and the story with it, is a goodie.
I was an avid SCI reader. I had no recollection that Yates was writing for the magazine then. I think my first memory of the magazine was when I was dreadfully ill with flu, and my dad brought home a copy for me to read while recovering. There was a red Lotus 7 on the cover.
Jack
