I am looking for some information on the pre war Estonian Grand Prix. I know that the Finish driver Karl Ebb won that race in 1935 but could anyone provide some more info. Thanks in advance.
Estonian Grand Prix
Started by
indyricefan13
, Oct 30 2005 12:24
32 replies to this topic
#3
GIGLEUX
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#4
Vitesse2
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Posted 30 October 2005 - 12:46
http://www.kolumbus....an/gp355.htm#42
A Google search using "Eesti suursõit" brings up quite a number of results, mostly in Estonian!
A Google search using "Eesti suursõit" brings up quite a number of results, mostly in Estonian!
#6
Aspelund
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:32
Actually it is very hard to call those races Grand Prix. They there TT (Tourist Trophy) races and the car's where used only as sideshow. People came to look at motorcycle racing.
The event itself started in 1933 and was run until 1940, then war interrupted the racing.
First TT was in 17.september 1933, three cars there in starting list, but no starts for car's was given.
I have to look at some newspapers/books to give more data.
Tarmo
Estonia
The event itself started in 1933 and was run until 1940, then war interrupted the racing.
First TT was in 17.september 1933, three cars there in starting list, but no starts for car's was given.
I have to look at some newspapers/books to give more data.
Tarmo
Estonia
#7
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 31 October 2005 - 19:32
It became customary after the war in Kalevi Suursõit events in 1959-78, too. The motorcycle racing was highlighted, whereas cars weren't paid much attention in general. Reading race reports in newspapers, I usually found very detailed data on motorcycles - winners in each class, their average speeds and fastest laps, followed by something like this: "Lembit Teesaly won the Formula 2 race, and Jükk Reintam was first in F3". Strangely enough.Originally posted by Aspelund
Actually it is very hard to call those races Grand Prix. They there TT (Tourist Trophy) races and the car's where used only as sideshow. People came to look at motorcycle racing.
#8
Aspelund
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Posted 01 November 2005 - 08:19
Yes, that's the story of post war period.
Actually the formula racing Estonia stopped in 1978, because there was an accident in Vana-Võidu circuit near Viljandi. Two car's (formulas) touched and one went into the crowd. One pregnant woman died in the result and someone lost leg.
Next year Kalevi Suursõit was only for motorcycles. I think formula racing resumed in Estonia only in the 90-s, until this time nearest circuit for them was in Riga.
Tarmo
Estonia
Actually the formula racing Estonia stopped in 1978, because there was an accident in Vana-Võidu circuit near Viljandi. Two car's (formulas) touched and one went into the crowd. One pregnant woman died in the result and someone lost leg.
Next year Kalevi Suursõit was only for motorcycles. I think formula racing resumed in Estonia only in the 90-s, until this time nearest circuit for them was in Riga.
Tarmo
Estonia
#9
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 01 November 2005 - 08:46
Here are the results of Estonian championships from 1962 to 2003, without any interval after 1978. Where could those championship events be held from 1979 to the 90's? Definitely not at Pirita and not at Viljandi. There was a circuit near Tartu, Ojaküla-Vanamõisa (or else Põvvatu-Vanamõisa), but it was a motorcycle racing venue. I'm really prepared to believe that Estonian championships were held in Latvia.
#10
Erikson
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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:44
Fron 1979 onwards Estonian championship races were held in Riga. Even nowadays one round of Estionian championship is held in Riga.
Concerning Ojaküla-Vanamõisa track, it was used only for a couple of years in the beginning on 1960s but cars also raced there. It was very fast triangle-shaped track and nowadays you have very little idea about it being there at all.
In more recent times races have been held also in Tartu (on former Soviet military airfield), Saaremaa (road course Near Kuressaare), Hiiumaa (Kärdla airport) and Tallinn (street course in Lasnamäe district). And of course in Pärnu, which is the one and only semi-permanent racing track in Estonia.
Concerning Ojaküla-Vanamõisa track, it was used only for a couple of years in the beginning on 1960s but cars also raced there. It was very fast triangle-shaped track and nowadays you have very little idea about it being there at all.
In more recent times races have been held also in Tartu (on former Soviet military airfield), Saaremaa (road course Near Kuressaare), Hiiumaa (Kärdla airport) and Tallinn (street course in Lasnamäe district). And of course in Pärnu, which is the one and only semi-permanent racing track in Estonia.
#11
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 03 November 2005 - 11:13
Maybe my English isn't good enough as I haven't understood what you have meant by the following phrase:
Could you please clarify it?Originally posted by Erikson
...and nowadays you have very little idea about it being there at all.
#12
Aspelund
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 17:29
Ojaküla-Vanamõisa is mostly here, abaout 2/3 still remaining (with very bad surface). Another 1/3 was destroyd after the new road was built.
It was used from 1958 until 1966 (I must look at exact dates). For some time it was a replacement for Pirita, which was renovated. But in the middle of the 60-s came Vana-Võidu and Riga, so Tartu was left behind.
You can see the present state in the photo from Estonian map server. With red is remaining part, with yellow missing one.
Tarmo
It was used from 1958 until 1966 (I must look at exact dates). For some time it was a replacement for Pirita, which was renovated. But in the middle of the 60-s came Vana-Võidu and Riga, so Tartu was left behind.
You can see the present state in the photo from Estonian map server. With red is remaining part, with yellow missing one.
Tarmo
#13
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 18:26
Superb image, Tarmo, and superb data, thank you very much! 
I think I would be able to convert this space image into a more readable map...
I think I would be able to convert this space image into a more readable map...
#14
Aspelund
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 13:29
More info about Estonian TT-s
Second TT-race took place in 16.september 1934. Six cars there in startline.
Smaller engined cars:
1. D.Ferrier (England) - Singer (74,05 km/h)
2. Johannes Mannert (Estonia) - DKW (69,50 km/h)
3. K.Stadie (Germany) - Hanomag
(DNF) A.Koch (Estonia)- MG
Bigger engined
1. Hans Tael (Estonia)- Chevrolet (78,72 km/h)
2. Johannes Lorup (Estonia) - Auburn
DNF Julius Johanson (Estonia) - Studebaker(?)
3. TT took place in 15.september 1935
11 cars, 6 from Finnish Automobile Club, 2 in under 1500 cm3 class, others over 1500 cm3
Under 1500cm3
1.K. Scheel aka Rocy Roy (Estonia) - MG - 51.37,5 - 78,58 km/h
DNF K.Stadie (Germany) - problems with back wheel, was forced out by organizers.
Over 1500cm3
1.Karl Ebb (Finland) - Mercedes Benz (Nr 1) - 41.01.8 - 98,87 km/h
2.E.Elo (Finland) - Bugatti - 43.52,0 - 92,48 km/h
3.A.Vallenius (Finland) - Ford - 44.16,0 - 91,64 km/h
4.A.Sorri (Finland) - Chrysler - 44.48,2 - 90,54 km/h
5.A.Patama (Finland) - Ford - 44.50,0 - 90,48 km/h
6. Julius Johanson (Estonia) - Studebaker (Nr 2) (82,96 km/h)
DNS, but there in starting protocol:
Hans Tael (Estonia) - Alfa Romeo
Arno Koch (Estonia) - Amilcar
4th TT 1936 Six racers from Finland, one from Estonia
1. A. Patama (Finland) - Ford (92,86 km/h)
2. A.Hallmann (Finland) - Ford (88,57 km/h)
3. E.Alm (Finland) - Ford (nr 6) (83,03 km/h)
4. ? (Finland) - Ford
DNF
E.Elo - Bugatti
E.Mustakallio - Chrysler
DNS
M.Kersna (Estonia) - Studebaker
That was all. No more cars starter in Estonian TT-s.
I hope this info helps.
Tarmo
Second TT-race took place in 16.september 1934. Six cars there in startline.
Smaller engined cars:
1. D.Ferrier (England) - Singer (74,05 km/h)
2. Johannes Mannert (Estonia) - DKW (69,50 km/h)
3. K.Stadie (Germany) - Hanomag
(DNF) A.Koch (Estonia)- MG
Bigger engined
1. Hans Tael (Estonia)- Chevrolet (78,72 km/h)
2. Johannes Lorup (Estonia) - Auburn
DNF Julius Johanson (Estonia) - Studebaker(?)
3. TT took place in 15.september 1935
11 cars, 6 from Finnish Automobile Club, 2 in under 1500 cm3 class, others over 1500 cm3
Under 1500cm3
1.K. Scheel aka Rocy Roy (Estonia) - MG - 51.37,5 - 78,58 km/h
DNF K.Stadie (Germany) - problems with back wheel, was forced out by organizers.
Over 1500cm3
1.Karl Ebb (Finland) - Mercedes Benz (Nr 1) - 41.01.8 - 98,87 km/h
2.E.Elo (Finland) - Bugatti - 43.52,0 - 92,48 km/h
3.A.Vallenius (Finland) - Ford - 44.16,0 - 91,64 km/h
4.A.Sorri (Finland) - Chrysler - 44.48,2 - 90,54 km/h
5.A.Patama (Finland) - Ford - 44.50,0 - 90,48 km/h
6. Julius Johanson (Estonia) - Studebaker (Nr 2) (82,96 km/h)
DNS, but there in starting protocol:
Hans Tael (Estonia) - Alfa Romeo
Arno Koch (Estonia) - Amilcar
4th TT 1936 Six racers from Finland, one from Estonia
1. A. Patama (Finland) - Ford (92,86 km/h)
2. A.Hallmann (Finland) - Ford (88,57 km/h)
3. E.Alm (Finland) - Ford (nr 6) (83,03 km/h)
4. ? (Finland) - Ford
DNF
E.Elo - Bugatti
E.Mustakallio - Chrysler
DNS
M.Kersna (Estonia) - Studebaker
That was all. No more cars starter in Estonian TT-s.
I hope this info helps.
Tarmo
#15
Vitesse2
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 13:50
Originally posted by Aspelund
I hope this info helps.
Tarmo
Tarmo: I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that's much more than any of us ever hoped or expected to see about pre-war Estonian racing!
I've no idea who Mr Ferrier was, but I'd guess he was probably a diplomat at the British Embassy. I can't imagine any other reason he'd have been in Estonia in 1934!
Do you by any chance know anything more about the MGs? Model types or engine sizes perhaps? Or any of the 1500cc cars, come to that?
#16
David McKinney
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 14:59
I echo thatOriginally posted by Vitesse2
#17
KJJ
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 18:19
Originally posted by Vitesse2
I've no idea who Mr Ferrier was, but I'd guess he was probably a diplomat at the British Embassy. I can't imagine any other reason he'd have been in Estonia in 1934!
Of course none of the Baltic States were behind the Iron Curtain in the 1930s and there would have been plenty of trade links between England and Estonia. It's not that far away.
#18
indyricefan13
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 19:37
Thanks a lot for the info about Estonian racing. Coming from Lviv, which also hosted GP racing before the war I am very interested in pre war eastern European racing. Thanks again.
#19
David Beard
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 21:14
Originally posted by Aspelund
2. Johannes Lorup (Estonia) - Auburn
The only racing success of the Auburn? A handsome thing, but must be the ultimate hairdresser's car?
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#20
Tomas Karlsson
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 09:56
There are several victories for Auburn i Scandinavian races and hillclimbs. There were a couple of modified Auburns in Finland in the late 20ies and early 30ies that dominated the local scene. Karl Ebb was one of the drivers and he were beating Bugatti 35Cs with his car. In 1931 he won the first Swedish Winter GP at Rämen with his Auburn. One of his competitors was a certain R.Caracciola in a Mercedes SSK...
I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the Finnish Auburn racers that found its way to Estonia.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the Finnish Auburn racers that found its way to Estonia.
#21
Jonas
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:12
Does anyone know what type of Alfa Romeo this was?Originally posted by Aspelund
Hans Tael (Estonia) - Alfa Romeo
#22
Aspelund
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 15:21
It's very hard to trace the stories of pre-war racers. Sadly lot of information was lost during Iron-Curtain Years.
About MG-here you can see the picture of one, taken at local "rally" in 1939.
It can be same car, that is mentioned in results.
Here is the picture of racing Amilcar, that was used in the 30-s. Its fate is not known:
About Alfa-Romeo: I have seen only one picture of Alfa-Romeo from 1938, after local businesman called Aron Citron crashed it during a race in my hometown Viljandi. Here is the picture of the car after the crash.
And we also had this Studebaker.
It was used until 50-s, but then taken apart.
With best wishes,
Tarmo
About MG-here you can see the picture of one, taken at local "rally" in 1939.
It can be same car, that is mentioned in results.
Here is the picture of racing Amilcar, that was used in the 30-s. Its fate is not known:
About Alfa-Romeo: I have seen only one picture of Alfa-Romeo from 1938, after local businesman called Aron Citron crashed it during a race in my hometown Viljandi. Here is the picture of the car after the crash.
And we also had this Studebaker.
It was used until 50-s, but then taken apart.
With best wishes,
Tarmo
#23
Vitesse2
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 22:01
That MG looks to be a J2 Midget, I think. Not the rarest thing to come out of Abingdon, but I don't suppose many made it as far as Estonia! Is that a Delahaye next to it?
Tarmo: I just love the look of that Studebaker! The passenger looks to be having a lot more fun than the driver in that picture
Tarmo: I just love the look of that Studebaker! The passenger looks to be having a lot more fun than the driver in that picture
#24
alessandro silva
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 22:16
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Is that a Delahaye next to it?
It is a much more modest Peugeot, Richard. The Alfa is a 6C either 1500 or 1750.
#25
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 07 November 2005 - 21:09
What was the layout of Pirita circuit where these pre-war races were held? Was it like this?
And where was the start/finish situated?
And where was the start/finish situated?
#26
Aspelund
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Posted 10 November 2005 - 08:53
I think the starting point was the streight before the turn to the old starting place, but I must look at some papers to be sure.
But yesterday I got a copy of Estonian car journal "Auto" from 1936, that covers 4th TT, so now I can give exact results for the race.
10 laps on 6,76 km long circuit.
Cars over 1500 cm3
1. Nr. 3 A.Patama (Finland) - Ford - 43.41 - 92,86 km/h
2. Nr. 7 A.Hallmaa (Finland) - Ford - 45.48 - 88,57 km/h
3. Nr. 6 E.Alm (Finland) - Ford - 48.20 - 83,93 km/h
DNF
Nr. 5 A.Vallenius(Finland) - Ford (crash in lap 3, went into trees after trying to overtake Bugatti. Driver unhurt).
Nr. 1 E.Elo (Finland) - Bugatti (technical problems)
Nr. 5 E.Mustakallio (Finland) - Chrysler (technical problems after the roll-overs in qualifying)
DNS
M. Kersna (Estonia) - Studebaker (technical problems).
DNQ
Urban (Estonia) - Skoda (crash during qualifying)
L. Markovitch (Estonia) - Aero (reasons not known, was in the list, but did not apear, was only racer in the class under 1500 cm3)
I will try to scan the images at weekend, the car of E. Alm is very intresting with huge vertical wing at the back.
Tarmo
But yesterday I got a copy of Estonian car journal "Auto" from 1936, that covers 4th TT, so now I can give exact results for the race.
10 laps on 6,76 km long circuit.
Cars over 1500 cm3
1. Nr. 3 A.Patama (Finland) - Ford - 43.41 - 92,86 km/h
2. Nr. 7 A.Hallmaa (Finland) - Ford - 45.48 - 88,57 km/h
3. Nr. 6 E.Alm (Finland) - Ford - 48.20 - 83,93 km/h
DNF
Nr. 5 A.Vallenius(Finland) - Ford (crash in lap 3, went into trees after trying to overtake Bugatti. Driver unhurt).
Nr. 1 E.Elo (Finland) - Bugatti (technical problems)
Nr. 5 E.Mustakallio (Finland) - Chrysler (technical problems after the roll-overs in qualifying)
DNS
M. Kersna (Estonia) - Studebaker (technical problems).
DNQ
Urban (Estonia) - Skoda (crash during qualifying)
L. Markovitch (Estonia) - Aero (reasons not known, was in the list, but did not apear, was only racer in the class under 1500 cm3)
I will try to scan the images at weekend, the car of E. Alm is very intresting with huge vertical wing at the back.
Tarmo
#27
Tomas Karlsson
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Posted 10 November 2005 - 09:51
Nr. 7 A.Hallmaa (Finland) - Ford
I suppose that this must be Helge Hallman.
Einar Alms Ford Spl was rather strange. But he actually won a race at the Kottby oval (a trotting course) in Helsinki in 1934.
#28
Aspelund
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 16:26
Hello!
Here are the pictures of the 4th TT from the Estonian journal "Auto".
Winner A. Patama
Helge Hallman and A. Vallenius
A. Patama
Butterfly of E. Alm.
I hope, someone finds those pictures useful.
Tarmo
Here are the pictures of the 4th TT from the Estonian journal "Auto".
Winner A. Patama
Helge Hallman and A. Vallenius
A. Patama
Butterfly of E. Alm.
I hope, someone finds those pictures useful.
Tarmo
#29
David McKinney
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 16:38
Fascinating!
I love the fin on the "Butterfly"
I love the fin on the "Butterfly"
#30
bradbury west
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:47
Many thanks for all the information , and all the photographs. It is fantastic that all of this archive detail is available.
Roger Lund
Roger Lund
#31
Tomas Karlsson
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Posted 14 November 2005 - 13:02
Interesting to see that Hallman's car was SPJ Keinänen's old Chrysler special. Now probably with a Ford engine.
I wonder if it was that car Arvo Sorri used during 1935?
I wonder if it was that car Arvo Sorri used during 1935?
#32
indyricefan13
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Posted 28 November 2005 - 21:41
Thanks for all the info. Before I started this thread I only knew that Karl Ebb who also happened to race in my hometown in 1933 was a winner in Estonian racing. Thanks again for all the info!
#33
Alexey Rogachev
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 19:11
Originally posted by Aspelund
Ojaküla-Vanamõisa is mostly here, abaout 2/3 still remaining (with very bad surface). Another 1/3 was destroyd after the new road was built. You can see the present state in the photo from Estonian map server. With red is remaining part, with yellow missing one.
Tarmo
Tarmo,
I'm afraid you were wrong showing that missed part of Vanamõisa circuit on the image... I'm making up a map of this track for my web site now, and I have combined an old track map with a map from Estonian server, showing the present-day state of the territory. The result is as follows:
You can see that the northern part of the circuit is not destroyed in fact, but has become a non-principal road after the construction of the new highway.
