East European enginuity

Roger Lund, alias 'Bradbury West', has asked me to post these photos of his of the chassis of the 1930s Polish PZInz luxury car prototype. Note the remarkable similarity to the MG R-type, and also to Chunky's much later Elan. A very interesting feature is the apparently adjustable-on-the-move of ride height by moving the torsion bar anchorages.

I'm sure Roger will tell us a lot more about this car, and I was hoping this thread might inspire others to dig out facts and figures about 'hidden' ingenuity and automotive resourcefulness in the former Eastern Block...







Enjoy!

What sort of transmission has that thing got?

And are there any pics of the MG R-type?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
What sort of transmission has that thing got?

And are there any pics of the MG R-type?

This was lifted, with respect, from F. Wilson McComb's 'MG'. An innovative thing for 1935! McComb quotes Motor Sport at the time of its launch: "a car which will be the admiration of the rest of the world ... a genuine Grand Prix racing car in miniature. Nothing like it has ever been within reach of motor-racing enthusiasts at the price, either in England or on the Continent.'


Edit: Two 'ofs'. Must be getting old old.

Cool...

No wonder Pip likes his. And spent 30 years restoring it from a burned out wreck.

Shouldn't this thread be title ENGINUITY?

Why pick up on that when only Twinny can fix it?

But, of course, you're right...

Originally posted by Bonde
...of the chassis of the 1930s Polish PZInz luxury car prototype...
... 'hidden' ingenuity and automotive resourcefulness in the former Eastern Block...

One shouldn´t neglect the fact, that the "Eastern Block" was a phenomen of the decades between 1950 and 1990. For example Czechia was a highly industrialized country in the thirties and Poland was by far not as under-developed as is sometimes assumed today. So in my opinion it is very important, that threads like this help keeping this in mind.

Is there a picture how the car would have looked when completed?

It was PZInz 403 Lux-Sport, an innovative Polish luxury car with fully independent suspension. Its development was stopped by the coming war.

Originally posted by uechtel
Is there a picture how the car would have looked when completed?

and on Polish stamp from 1987

I saw this chassis when I was in Warsaw/Krakow in the mid/late 90s on holiday. As I did in Prague, so I went to the Technical Museum in Warsaw and saw the chassis here. If you go to those cities I recomend visits to the museums/musea, since they both have super displays of cars, motorbikes, 'planes and trains etc, and all other examples of Eastern bloc engineering, often or invariably underestimated, especially pre war.

A chap called Pawel Pronobis responded to the pics when they were in C&SC and I give you a paraprase of his report, and to him and C&SC I offer my recognition .

The chassis in the museum is the sole surviving chassis of a highly advanced 1930s Plish supercar. It was designed by PZInz, and industrial combine started in 1930 intended to build under licence FIAT and Saurer trucks. but capable in its own right.

The Lux Sport was the brainchild of a patriotic group intent on sowing what Poland could do. Started in 1934 the prototype was ready for tests FIVE months later, so perhaps Vanwall's view of an MGD R type crib is possibly somewhat wide of the mark, especially since it is unlikely that the inner secrets of MG would have filtered through to Polish industrialists, mindful of language and geographical barriers, and a year early. Quite often the same idea, or variations, arise in different places at the same time , plus IIRC Mercedes had a car in the '30s with a tubular backbone chassis, type 170 ?? I may be wrong on that., so probably more of a MB crib if anything, one suspects.

The PZInz featured a compact backbone chassis, in what looked like 1/4 " steel to me, contailning all pipes and lines etc. Suspension Fr and rear was independent, with adjustable ride height, dont ask me how, a quick change diff, (pre Halibrand or a diferent design?) and special ow pressure tyres, probably to accommodate rudimentary road surfaces of the period.

The prototype ran with a FIAT six pot engine but the design team produced its own engine, no mean operation this then, a V8 of 3,888cc, on 6.5:1 compression offering 70kW, 95 horses, at 3,600rpm. Length was given at 3,400mm, width and height 1,460mm, and a weiht of 1,200kg to claim a top speed of 135km/hr.

A Cotal 4 speed electromagnetic gearbox was imported for the second proto. These were displayed at the 1936 Warsaw Industrial Exhibition, clearly no MG agents there. This chassis was discovered post-war in a tractor factory yard and was restored by the Museum staff.

The pictures show the bold six window body style fitted to one chassis onl, with parts for four beig produced, the body designed by S Panczakiewicz, similar to a period Hanomag. Only two were actually built.

Tested in 37 and 38 for over 100,000km the prototype proved very comfortable and well capable of coping wih the period roads.

Sadly the onset of the 1939 hostilities saw the whole thing come to a standstill.

The dampers look as if they could be a Dubonnet variation perhaps.

The suspension is very advanced for the time, I think, and I cannot fathom the inter/cross links fo what look to be torsion bars.

I thought it might be something along the lines of the Nicholls Suspension Stabiliser system which appeared in the early sixties, with diagonally opposed wheels linked via anti-roll bars. IIRC Jeff Uren used them on his 61 saloon championship Zephyr. They were featured in Motor Sport and advertised at around 15 quid.

The chassis really does warrant examination which is why I am obliged to Anders for putting up the photos. Stuff is on the www if you enter PZInz Lux Sport, or auta5p.car.cz and follow the various leads

Looking at the MG R chassis it is obviously built for lightness............... clearly a racer .

Roger Lund.

The Mercedes you refer to is probably the rear engined 170 H model, not to mismatch with the conventional built 170 V. Alas, the 170 H did by far not sell as good as the sister modell, which was one the greatest all-time success of Mercedes.

And thanks for the pictures. If you compare this with other cars of that time it looks really like a decade in advance.

Inspired by the topic I found also something about early ingenuity in Romania (from Dünnebier / Kittler: "Personenkraftwagen sozialistischer Länder"

"Like in the other South East European countries until WW II Romania did not have a automobile industry of her own, but some Romanian inventors became known in foreign countries: In 1880 Dumitrescu Vlasescu designed a steam car with the working cylinder working directly on the rear axle. Aurel Persu developed a streamlined car in 1923, for which he received German patent in the following year an a "car with aerodynamic shape and the four wheels enclosed by this shape". In 1926 George Constantinescu presented a car in Paris with steady ("stufenlos") transmission and in 1930 Traian Vula received a patent on a vehicle powered by a steam generator, which is reported to have been running for a while at Brussels."

Here a picture of Persu´s car:

Uechtel,

I agree entirely that most of what we now call 'former Eastern Bloc countries' were indeed a fully integral and level part of European culture, economy and level of technology prior to WWII; I simply chose that monicer for this thread for want of a better short name for that group of European nations. Personally, I think it was the Iron Fist of post-war communist regimes that thwarted their parallel development with the free West. The people there were, and are, every bit as bright as their Western colleagues, but their imposed form of government provided them with an uneven, uphill struggle.

One misfortune of the communist regimes was the centralized divide-and-conquer plan-economy orders for who were allowed to do what in the Eastern Bloc automotive world - that really choked a lot of talent. Another misfortune was the paranoia of the regimes, which led to obtuse secrecy, lack of exchange of ideas and suppresion of news and data on actual technological advances. That, I feel, is why there is now, after the demise of the communist regimes, the potential for revelation of much about such fascinating secretive and obscure automotive designs - even if a lot of artifacts and records were destroyed. I hope this thread will inspire TNF'ers to bring more stuff of this nature into the open!

Re backbone chassis: The great Hans Ledwinka was a pioneer of the backbone chassis and he was very influential in central European automotive design at the time. As he inspired even Ferdinand Porsche, I don't find it surprising that the PZInz is based on the backbone structural concept - it was fairly easy to integrate with independent suspension with relatively long arams for substantial bump/droop travel, and it allowd lowering the body on both sides of the central tunnel.

Anybody have more detailed drawings of the rear suspension of the
MG R type ?
Looks like there is a double setup of torsion bars at the rear.
Obviously the outer levers transfer the twist to the torsion bars, but
I wonder what the inside levers do ?
Also seems to be toe-in adjustment possibilities.

Marc !!!
Of course the outside levers don't.....................

Re R-Type: I guess the lower wishbone activates the torsion bar directly - as seen on, among others, thousands of Morris Minors later on. The levers at the tail are for the lever-arm type dampers, methinks.

Looks like you are right Bonde.
My original post contains a huge error. The wishbones of course
torque up the torsion bars, the levers on the end (the outside ones)
transfer motion through the small link to the inside set of levers.
The lever type dampers are probabbly housed behind the bulkhead.

Is it time to mention the Tatra?

Rear mounted V8 air-cooled engine
Independent suspension all round using torsion bars and swing axles

Over to the experts.

Good mention D-type,
I actually liked that big thing
know any sites to look at some details ?

http://www.tatra.demon.nl/

Follow the Tatra lead above and then follow the GANZ photo lead, and see how slender the '30s Hansa and Hanomag chassis are with their central spines, plus the sidebar with the Tatra shows the narrow tube chassis.

RL