Indy 500 WDC points question

Hello all,

Following along the thread of “when did they start to care about points”…

From 1950-1960, drivers in the Indianapolis 500 were awarded points in the World Driving Championship. The Indy winners usually ended up ranked in the top 10 in the final Championship standings during that period.

Were the Indy 500 drivers aware of their accomplishments? Did they even care? Did the FIA notify them in any way? Was there any prize money involved?

Originally posted by stevewf1
Hello all,

Following along the thread of “when did they start to care about points”…

From 1950-1960, drivers in the Indianapolis 500 were awarded points in the World Driving Championship. The Indy winners usually ended up ranked in the top 10 in the final Championship standings during that period.

Were the Indy 500 drivers aware of their accomplishments? Did they even care? Did the FIA notify them in any way? Was there any prize money involved?

As far as I know they were aware of it but since all of them concentrated on their own domestic series, largely because of the prize money involved, they didn't bother to contest anywhere else within the GP series. Most of the US drivers were racers by profession who needed to race as much as possible on the dirttracks in either sprints or midgets to earn a living and unfamiliar with the European road racing kind of racing anyway.
I know of at least two US drivers who were invited to compete within Europe but once they heard about the levels of prize money they would compete for, they backed off since the USA could offer them much more.
The other way around: Alberto Ascari was about the only driver ever who seriously tried to gain points at Indy in 1952.

The Indy 500 GP status yielded one bizarre F1 statistic. In the fifties there was also a point to win for the fastest race lap. As far as I could figure out, it has happened only once that a driver got this point while he finished dead last in the race: Paul Russo at Indy in 1956.
I think that Paul's 33rd place at Indy that year must be the lowest ranking ever within a WDC race and still earning him a point for the WDC title and thus making the final classification over the season because of only one, single race he started that season.
For those who are familiar with the legend, it is indeed the kind of performance and statistic that one could expect about that it involves a driver who drove a Novi V8.


Henri

I believe Indy also only kept statistics for lap speeds of the driver in the lead, so it is possible that the bonus point on occasion did NOT go to the fastest lap driver. Which by sheer chance never proved decisive in the World Championship.

Which by sheer chance never proved decisive in the World Championship.

Depends what you mean by decisive. In 1958 Hawthorn scored (net) 4 points for FL to Moss's 3. So if the FL point never existed, Moss would have been champion (on race wins). Likewise, as it did exist, the WDC result would have been different if Hawthorn had failed to achieve any one of his 4 fastest laps.

Did the FIA notify them in any way? Was there any prize money involved?

Can I add to Steve's question and ask if there was ever any prize money involved in WDC points? (For the champion, or for other points scorers).

Originally posted by roger_valentine

Depends what you mean by decisive. In 1958 Hawthorn scored (net) 4 points for FL to Moss's 3. So if the FL point never existed, Moss would have been champion (on race wins). Likewise, as it did exist, the WDC result would have been different if Hawthorn had failed to achieve any one of his 4 fastest laps.

Um, no, I meant the fact that Russo by good fortune did not pick up forty odd points elsewhere to cause Fangio to lose the title to a fastest lap that he did not set.

Of course the fastest lap in '58 was decisive - the fact that Moss misread a signal "HAW-REC" (Hawthorn record) as "HAW-REG" (Hawthorn doing the same speed) meant he did not push for the bonus point.

Fastest lap bonus point was an asinine idea, anyway, GP racing is about racing over a race distance. So what if you nail it on one lap if your other ones are shite?

Only further knock-on effect with Indy was that the point scorers would be Grade A drivers for the following season, with consequences as to some of the races they could enter &c. Which did not affect them. Only Troy Ruttman and Rodger Ward of Indy point scorers took part in WC GPs, IIRC.

Originally posted by ensign14
I believe Indy also only kept statistics for lap speeds of the driver in the lead, so it is possible that the bonus point on occasion did NOT go to the fastest lap driver.

Contrary to that notion, AAA/USAC and IMS did record the time for each and every lap by each and every car -- I have seen such lap charts from the 1950s.

For reasons I have been unable to pinpoint, the Contest Board decided to award the point for the fastest lap to the fastest leading lap. I am sure that the rationale for this is buried somewhere in the Contest Board Bulletins, but i haven't sifted through all of them so I don't know why they decided to do this. Not that it really mattered, of course.

Originally posted by ensign14
Um, no, I meant the fact that Russo by good fortune did not pick up forty odd points elsewhere to cause Fangio to lose the title to a fastest lap that he did not set.

Sorry ensign - I missed the irony in you post - I thouht you were talking about fastest lap points in general.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Contrary to that notion, AAA/USAC and IMS did record the time for each and every lap by each and every car -- I have seen such lap charts from the 1950s.

Don - please try and seek out these charts. It would be very interesting to know how often fastest lap and fastest lead lap were set by different people (championship points notwithstanding).

And why the Contest Board rather than the FIA/AIACR was awarding points? Or was it a question of them forwarding their own info to the governing body that just followed suit?

Certainly at Indy they were always keen on race records for leaders, e.g. the thing about "fastest time to 350 miles" and so on that always appeared in the Hungness books. I guess they had sponsors for fastest leading lap or something rather than fastest outright lap, and for those at the racetrack it was easier to look through 200 laps rather than 33 sets of a load of laps.

Originally posted by ensign14
And why the Contest Board rather than the FIA/AIACR was awarding points?

Actually, it was the CSI....

Again, it is entirely possible that the CSI was sufficiently vague in the awarding of the fastest lap that the Contest Board chose to do it the way it wished. Keep in mind that once upon a time there was an immense amount of autonomy that the organizers of races had when it came to lots of things that are now dictated to the nth degree. As I mentioned, I never found that issue directly addressed, but then I could have easily overlooked it or simply not had access to the Bulletin in which it appeared in the first place.

Originally posted by stevewf1
Were the Indy 500 drivers aware of their accomplishments? Did they even care?

I'm surprised how some of them didn't even seem to care about the 1,000 points on offer towards their own National Championship - the Indy 500 awarded 5 times as many points as the 100 mile dirt races that made up the majority of the championship trail, so a good Indy 500 finish could go a long way towards sealing a championship.

Vukovich (53 and 54), Hanks (57) and Bryan (58) all won Indy at the start of the season but declined to compete for the rest of the year.

In 1952 Troy Ruttman got injured not long after winning Indy, yet still very nearly won the AAA Championship, despite having been out of action from June-ish onwards.

Originally posted by E.B.


I'm surprised how some of them didn't even seem to care about the 1,000 points on offer towards their own National Championship - the Indy 500 awarded 5 times as many points as the 100 mile dirt races that made up the majority of the championship trail, so a good Indy 500 finish could go a long way towards sealing a championship.

Vukovich (53 and 54), Hanks (57) and Bryan (58) all won Indy at the start of the season but declined to compete for the rest of the year.

I think that this was because of a combination of the following reasons.

- Most of the drivers you mentioned had had their heydays of race wins and the occasional championship so only concentrated on the big prizes of only the big one: indy. ('Vukovich had been a terror in Midgets and nothing to prove anymore so concentrated on the glory and prestige of Indy. Hanks did retire from racing now he had finally won Indy and he lived long and happily thereafter.)
- Those dirttracks may well have been spectacular and entertaining but they were dangerous. And after winning a hefty prize at Indy there was less reason to risk your life on Langhorne and all those other, oval shaped `entry lanes to graveyards' unless you were a bare to the bone thrillseeker or bare to the bone purebred racer. (depends on how you think about dirttrack racing and thmen who raced there)


Henri

Originally posted by stevewf1
Hello all,

…

From 1950-1960, drivers in the Indianapolis 500 were awarded points in the World Driving Championship.

Please note that the 'World Driving Championship' is for vehicles pulled by 4 horses.

Originally posted by Rob29
Please note that the 'World Driving Championship' is for vehicles pulled by 4 horses.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that fact. I started using that term when I put the points standings on my site www.stevewyant.com/f1.html because I was/still am afraid of the copyright thing with Bernie's lawyers. Perhaps my fears are somewhat unfounded?

Back to my original question, I always wondered what oh, say, Pat Flaherty might have thought if someone told him that he ranked in the top 10 in the F1 Championship in 1956.

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
And after winning a hefty prize at Indy there was less reason to risk your life on Langhorne and all those other, oval shaped `entry lanes to graveyards'

If money was the sole concern, few would have raced anywhere else.

Rodger Ward won a championship race at Springfield in June 1953, his purse was $1,875 (which presumably had to be shared with his car owner).

3 weeks earlier, he came 16th at Indianapolis, winning $2,916.

Vuky's purse that day (admittedly inflated by lots of leading lap prize money) was $89,496, the pace car, the Borg-Warner trophy, and, not to be overlooked, a case of Ideal dog food complete with a cocker spaniel to store it in.

I have never heard or read of any American publication that even mentions the fact that Indy counted for WDC points. If they knew at all, I can only assume it was a case of "so what?".

Originally posted by E.B.


I'm surprised how some of them didn't even seem to care about the 1,000 points on offer towards their own National Championship - the Indy 500 awarded 5 times as many points as the 100 mile dirt races that made up the majority of the championship trail, so a good Indy 500 finish could go a long way towards sealing a championship.

Vukovich (53 and 54), Hanks (57) and Bryan (58) all won Indy at the start of the season but declined to compete for the rest of the year.

In 1952 Troy Ruttman got injured not long after winning Indy, yet still very nearly won the AAA Championship, despite having been out of action from June-ish onwards.

There were several factors, primarily those cited by Henri. Vukovich, Hanks and Bryan were all winding down their driving careers, making starts in big money events like the '500' (or 'International Sweepstakes') and those where they likely got appearance money. Hanks actually drove in a race after his retirement (a Stock Car race at Riverside).

As far as the 1952 AAA Championship season, Ruttman only stayed in contention due to the misfortune of others. Everything from DNQ's caused by luck of the draw qualifying on rapidly changing dirt track surfaces to race incurred injuries . That season was full of twists and turns and the series of events that happened in chase of the sidelined points leader would make for a great article (Don, how about that for an RVM?).

As ensign14 points out, Ruttman did start a WC GP, but that came about because of an unusual set of circumstances as well.

I don't agree with the deadliness of dirt tracks in that era. True, most fatalities occurred on dirt tracks, but that's because most racing took place on dirt. By most, I mean an overwhelming amount. There were only four paved ovals that hosted Championship races in the 1950's, one of them only for a single race, one from 1954 and one from 1958. There were more short tracks that were paved, but not that many, again they were overwhelmingly dirt/clay surfaced.

I've read that Johnnie Parsons was seriously considering going to Europe. Now, if this was 1950 that he was considering, perhaps points were a consideration. I believe though, that these thoughts came a few years later. There were rumors linking Parsons to a Ferrari drive. I wonder the role of his test drive at Willow Springs in a "chicken or egg" scenario.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


There were several factors, primarily those cited by Henri. Vukovich, Hanks and Bryan were all winding down their driving careers, making starts in big money events like the '500' (or 'International Sweepstakes') and those where they likely got appearance money. Hanks actually drove in a race after his retirement (a Stock Car race at Riverside).

If my memory is correct, Sam did so only since he had signed a contract in advance for doing that race though I can't remember the exact reason anymore. Anyway, he did feel obliged to do that race for a very good reason and thus honored the commitment.


Henri

Originally posted by E.B.


I'm surprised how some of them didn't even seem to care about the 1,000 points on offer towards their own National Championship - the Indy 500 awarded 5 times as many points as the 100 mile dirt races that made up the majority of the championship trail, so a good Indy 500 finish could go a long way towards sealing a championship.

Vukovich (53 and 54), Hanks (57) and Bryan (58) all won Indy at the start of the season but declined to compete for the rest of the year.

I suppose it is a reflection on the importance of Indy. AJ Foyt is better known for 4 Indy wins than his 8 or 9 or whatever national championships. Who is better known out of Parnelli Jones (1 Indy win) or Henry Banks (1 AAA title)/Roger McCluskey (2x titles)?