Merry Christmas!
Seeing the quick reaction to my Costin Nathan post I though you might also help with info on what I believe is the ex Jo Siffert Lotus 22. A very significant Lotus. It carries an Ian Raby (Empire cars) chassis plate with FL22-7 (I assume Formula Libra)
I have owned this car for a number of years and it has been accepted by CAMS eligibility officers that it is chassis number 7 the car that ran in the Brussels GP in 1962, in formula libra form, with Jo Siffert at the wheel. It scored a 6th place on agregate over the 3 races, a fantastic result by any measure.
My dear old friend Spencer Bates in Sydney, and founder of Club Lotus Australia, bought the car in California in 1982 from a chap by the name of Gerald McCabe who had owned it since about 1975.
When contacted by me some time ago McCabe told me he could not remember who it was he bought it from, but the guy was a racer from, he thought, Sacramento. It was in F3 engine spec then.
I would really like to trace the early history of the car if any of our American cousins can help with a name or memories of a 22 racing in that period that would be fantastic.
This car is in the final stages of a major restoration back to FJ specs.
Thanks
Bruce
Jo Siffert Lotus T22
Started by
bruce mansell
, Dec 24 2005 22:36
56 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 24 December 2005 - 23:20
You can post some photos, can't you Bruce?
I'm sure I mentioned your car here some time in the distant past. Do a search and see what you find.
I'm sure I mentioned your car here some time in the distant past. Do a search and see what you find.
#3
Pedro 917
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Posted 25 December 2005 - 11:52
You can find some pictures of the Lotus 22 in the Jo Siffert book by Richard von Frankenberg.
#4
David McKinney
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Posted 25 December 2005 - 16:06
Copyright fees would be due, almost certainly, to whoever published the bookOriginally posted by Pedro 917
Copyrights were due/unknown
#5
T54
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 04:05
(I assume Formula Libra)
Uh, it's "Libre" like in "anything goes"...
Otherwise we may have a Formula Taurus and that ain't going to be too good...
#6
bruce mansell
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 08:52
LIBRE of course
Thanks for pulling me up, as I seem to be expert at typo's this week!
I can only blame Christmas cheer!!!
no racing for a few weeks, so plenty of time to dry out!!!!
Thanks for pulling me up, as I seem to be expert at typo's this week!
I can only blame Christmas cheer!!!
no racing for a few weeks, so plenty of time to dry out!!!!
#7
Roger Clark
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 09:02
Wasn't it actually in Formula 1 trim?
#8
bruce mansell
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 20:23
Hi Roger,
From what I've been able to ascertain Jo Siffert was suppposed to be running his new 24 that he had on order. As it was not ready Chapman suggested they fit the 22 with a bored out to 1500 Ford Consul Classic pushrod Cosworth engine with the 15" rear wheels, just so he could collecr starting money. I don't think they imagined the car would be all that competitive. What a surprise as it beat the whole factory Porsche effort and many other fancied cars and drivers. Jo Siffert was a bit underrated in my view. A Lotus owning mate of mine here, Wybe Geertsma, was a spectator at the meeting and got close and personal with the car and told me that Siffert drove the wheels off the thing and looked in complete command of the car even though giving away a fair amount of power he made up time in the corners.
The Ian Raby chassis plate has never been explained to me by anyone in "the know" as all the principals are now in god's race track. One explanation given was that Ian Raby and Chapman were pretty close friends and so was Siffert, Raby apparently was able to supply customer cars for the factory to relieve the factory team of supporting the customer cars. whether this is true or not I have no idea. In the great scheme of things this was a "one off" which makes the car just a liitle more interesting than the average. I have raced it in FJ spec for a few years and it is a terrific little car to fling around. The resto is almost complete, just have to assemble the new engine and paint the new body. I'm now sorely tempted to fit the big wheels and a 1500 pushrod to see how it will go in the coming Tasman Revival meeting.
Thanks for you interest.
From what I've been able to ascertain Jo Siffert was suppposed to be running his new 24 that he had on order. As it was not ready Chapman suggested they fit the 22 with a bored out to 1500 Ford Consul Classic pushrod Cosworth engine with the 15" rear wheels, just so he could collecr starting money. I don't think they imagined the car would be all that competitive. What a surprise as it beat the whole factory Porsche effort and many other fancied cars and drivers. Jo Siffert was a bit underrated in my view. A Lotus owning mate of mine here, Wybe Geertsma, was a spectator at the meeting and got close and personal with the car and told me that Siffert drove the wheels off the thing and looked in complete command of the car even though giving away a fair amount of power he made up time in the corners.
The Ian Raby chassis plate has never been explained to me by anyone in "the know" as all the principals are now in god's race track. One explanation given was that Ian Raby and Chapman were pretty close friends and so was Siffert, Raby apparently was able to supply customer cars for the factory to relieve the factory team of supporting the customer cars. whether this is true or not I have no idea. In the great scheme of things this was a "one off" which makes the car just a liitle more interesting than the average. I have raced it in FJ spec for a few years and it is a terrific little car to fling around. The resto is almost complete, just have to assemble the new engine and paint the new body. I'm now sorely tempted to fit the big wheels and a 1500 pushrod to see how it will go in the coming Tasman Revival meeting.
Thanks for you interest.
#9
Roger Clark
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 00:14
I think it was not so much a case of Siffert's 24 not being ready, rather that it was being driven by Trevor Taylor.
I wonder about the engine in Siffert's car. It may have been bored out, but did Cosworth have a cylinder head to suit? Is it possible that the engine was only a little over 1300cc, making Siffert's performance even more praiseworthy? Of course, Lotus did produce a 1500cc engine based on the Ford later that season, but that was rather different.
I wonder about the engine in Siffert's car. It may have been bored out, but did Cosworth have a cylinder head to suit? Is it possible that the engine was only a little over 1300cc, making Siffert's performance even more praiseworthy? Of course, Lotus did produce a 1500cc engine based on the Ford later that season, but that was rather different.
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 01:00
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I think it was not so much a case of Siffert's 24 not being ready, rather that it was being driven by Trevor Taylor.....
Can you explain this a little further please, Roger?
.....I wonder about the engine in Siffert's car. It may have been bored out, but did Cosworth have a cylinder head to suit? Is it possible that the engine was only a little over 1300cc, making Siffert's performance even more praiseworthy? Of course, Lotus did produce a 1500cc engine based on the Ford later that season, but that was rather different.
1340cc was the normal capacity of the Consul Classic engine (109E), the long stroke derivative of the 105E Anglia engine. This, in turn, was enlarged to 1475cc for racing in various 1500cc classes.
Still three main bearings...
#11
David McKinney
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 06:37
Cosworth did have a 1500 by this time - an overbored 1340cc 109E. One of them had been racing in New Zealand since JanuaryOriginally posted by Roger Clark
I wonder about the engine in Siffert's car. It may have been bored out, but did Cosworth have a cylinder head to suit? Is it possible that the engine was only a little over 1300cc, making Siffert's performance even more praiseworthy? Of course, Lotus did produce a 1500cc engine based on the Ford later that season, but that was rather different.
#12
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 06:47
Right... as I said... running 1475cc...
#13
Roger Clark
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 07:10
"Taylor drove the second Team lotus entry, which was a V8-type chassis frame, with 4-cylinder Coventry-Climax engine and Colotti gearbox, but with 1961 suspension all round. This special car has been built for the Swiss driver Siffert, who was due to take delivery after the race!"Originally posted by Ray Bell
Can you explain this a little further please, Roger?
DSJ, MOTOR SPORT, May 1962. Later he describes briefly the car driven by Siffert:
"With Team Lotus using his new Formula 1 car the Swiss driver Siffert was loaned a special 1,500-cc Ford engine by Chapman, to put in his Junior chassis. This engine uses a 105E Junior type base, with a Classic crankschaft and was Cosworth tuned, with twin double-choke Weber carburettors."
Thanks for the information about the 1,500 in New Zealand, David. Of course, later in 1962, the Classic was given a 1,500-cc engine, but not Cosworth tuned, perhaps fortunately.
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 08:46
Thanks, Roger... strangely, I thought that you wrote that the car was being built] by Trevor Taylor...
The 1500cc engine that later came out in the Classic was a 5-bearing engine... that was the 113E, I think.
I think you'll find that no 3-bearing engine ever raced with a capacity greater than 1475cc, and that they were still running 3-bearing (Jenks' reference to the 105E confirms this) at that time.
The 1500cc engine that later came out in the Classic was a 5-bearing engine... that was the 113E, I think.
I think you'll find that no 3-bearing engine ever raced with a capacity greater than 1475cc, and that they were still running 3-bearing (Jenks' reference to the 105E confirms this) at that time.
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 08:57
But you DIDN'T give a time-span, which was the crucial point of my postingOriginally posted by Ray Bell
Right... as I said... running 1475cc...
#16
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 09:01
No, I agree, I didn't David. But I was referring to a specific time in history, when this car ran as a Formula 1 car with a Ford engine...
At that time, the 5-bearing engines were not yet a reality. This is why I am harping on the 1475cc capacity, that is the distinguishing mark of the Cosworth race-tuned version of the 109E.
At that time, the 5-bearing engines were not yet a reality. This is why I am harping on the 1475cc capacity, that is the distinguishing mark of the Cosworth race-tuned version of the 109E.
#17
Joe Bosworth
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 12:34
Ray is quite correct as to the derivation of the 1475 cc Ford engine. It is interesting that even after the the 1498 came out quite a few people were still building up the 1475's as they seemed to perform better. Probably had to do with less friction. I could look up the details but am lazy at the moment; I think the 1475's had a bigger bore which meant less shrouding of the valves allowing better breathing.
Regards
Regards
#18
zoff2005
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 17:03
A few years ago (1990 or so) a Swiss driver called Martin Hugi raced in Europe a Lotus 22 also “ex-Siffert F1” fitted with a 1500 cc twin cam engine. Seems like every 22 not raced by Peter Arundel was raced by Jo Siffert. Who knows the truth?! And Siffert was a “dealer” so a lot of cars went through his hands. Did Lotus not run a 1500 cc twin cam engine in Clark’s Lotus 23 at Nurburgring in 1962?
#19
bruce mansell
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 18:22
Guys,
this is all very informative and I must say thanks to all of you taxing your brains at this time of year! But a couple of points. The chassis number listed on the entry for the Brussels GP in April was FL22-7 if my memory serves me correctly, (my 22 history file which Brian Lear provided me with, a long time ago, is at the office not here at home)
The twin cam in the Clark 23 was, I'm pretty, sure a 5 bearing classic based engine and wasn't Nurburgring much later in the year? again the files at work so I can't check, but I'm reasonably sure the 23 outing was the first time a twin cam appeared in competition.
The other point is, I'm really trying to find out who owned the car in Sacramento California and sold it to Gerald McCabe? it's history after that is not in question.
Also when Spencer Bates bought it from Gerald there was no inkling that it was anything special, it was just another Lotus 22 junior! it was not until a number of years later that historian and eligibility officer for CAMS, Bryan Miller noted the chassis plate and it rang bells and he researched it. it was he who decided it was the Brussels GP car. The other give away was the body was still the original and under the coats of paint was the original Swiss racing red. Not conclusive, but a tell tale none the less.
Frankly I don't care who had the car, I have it now and love it and it's not for sale! I promise it will be out there again later next year when a few other "projects" are finished
I wonder who in the USA would have any ideas about the pre McCabe history. Who do we know who lived in California and raced in the small bore open wheeler classes in that period, the 70s?
this is all very informative and I must say thanks to all of you taxing your brains at this time of year! But a couple of points. The chassis number listed on the entry for the Brussels GP in April was FL22-7 if my memory serves me correctly, (my 22 history file which Brian Lear provided me with, a long time ago, is at the office not here at home)
The twin cam in the Clark 23 was, I'm pretty, sure a 5 bearing classic based engine and wasn't Nurburgring much later in the year? again the files at work so I can't check, but I'm reasonably sure the 23 outing was the first time a twin cam appeared in competition.
The other point is, I'm really trying to find out who owned the car in Sacramento California and sold it to Gerald McCabe? it's history after that is not in question.
Also when Spencer Bates bought it from Gerald there was no inkling that it was anything special, it was just another Lotus 22 junior! it was not until a number of years later that historian and eligibility officer for CAMS, Bryan Miller noted the chassis plate and it rang bells and he researched it. it was he who decided it was the Brussels GP car. The other give away was the body was still the original and under the coats of paint was the original Swiss racing red. Not conclusive, but a tell tale none the less.
Frankly I don't care who had the car, I have it now and love it and it's not for sale! I promise it will be out there again later next year when a few other "projects" are finished
I wonder who in the USA would have any ideas about the pre McCabe history. Who do we know who lived in California and raced in the small bore open wheeler classes in that period, the 70s?
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#20
GIGLEUX
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 19:37
Wasn't the chassis number rather 22-J-7 as the car was a Formula Junior?
#21
David McKinney
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 20:54
If the car was built - or at least completed - for this particular race, it could well have been given an FL number. Certainly later Lotuses were given FL suffixes in the middle of what had by then become an F2 sequence (eg, Geoghegan's 32)
And IIRC Siffert never raced a 22 in FJ, which might have otherwise thrown suspicion on the numbering
And IIRC Siffert never raced a 22 in FJ, which might have otherwise thrown suspicion on the numbering
#22
Ray Bell
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 21:44
Originally posted by zoff2005
A few years ago (1990 or so) a Swiss driver called Martin Hugi raced in Europe a Lotus 22 also “ex-Siffert F1” fitted with a 1500 cc twin cam engine. Seems like every 22 not raced by Peter Arundel was raced by Jo Siffert. Who knows the truth?! And Siffert was a “dealer” so a lot of cars went through his hands. Did Lotus not run a 1500 cc twin cam engine in Clark’s Lotus 23 at Nurburgring in 1962?
From memory, that first 23 outing was in the Nurburgring 1000kms, which was, I think, in May...
Notable about that engine was that it was the first public outing for a 5-bearing engine, but I feel sure it was an 1100cc version. That was the engine size in the car when it got Chapman into strife at Le Mans, wasn't it?
It was also the first outing for a twin-cam... and seeing as Siffert would have had a 1475cc pushrod engine he was running and a V8 just around the corner, how could anyone justify runnning a twin-cam and saying it was an ex-Siffert F1 car?
#23
D-Type
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 22:20
The Brussels race was on April 1st and the Nurburgring 1000km was on May 27th. Clark's Lotus 23 ran in the 2000cc class while the other 23's were in the 1000cc class.
Memory is a fallible creature, but I have always understood that the Nurburgring car had a 1500 Ford-derived twin cam, progenitor of the Elan engine.
Memory is a fallible creature, but I have always understood that the Nurburgring car had a 1500 Ford-derived twin cam, progenitor of the Elan engine.
#24
GIGLEUX
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Posted 28 December 2005 - 23:33
From Motor Sport, May 1962 issue:
In the entry list: 19 J.Siffert; entrant Siffert; Lotus Ford 4; VW 5 sp gearbox; chassis Lotus 1962; colour: orange; remarks: Cosworth Ford, junior chassis.
Further in the text:
Taylor drove the second Team Lotus entry, which was a V8 type chassis frame, with 4-cylinder Coventry-Climax engine and Colotti gearbox, but with 1961 suspension all round. This special car has been built for the Swiss driver Siffert, who was due to take delivery after the race!...With Team Lotus using his new Formula One car the Swiss driver Siffert was loaned a special 1500-cc Ford engine by Chapman to put in his Junior chassis. This engine uses 105E Junior type bore, with a Classic crankshaft and was Cosworth tuned, with two double-choke Weber carburetters.
About the twin camshaft engine, Motor Sport, July 1962 issue:
Entered by the Essex racing team, this little green car was a Lotus 23 rear-engined sports car with a special Lotus engine comprised of a 2 o.h.c. alloy cylinder head, with twin Weber carburetters, on a Ford block of 1.5-litres capacity....This special Lotus-developed engine, which is intented for a production sports car later on this year, was giving 100 b.h.p. and being run as an endurance test of a production unit rather than a pure racing engine...
In the entry list: 19 J.Siffert; entrant Siffert; Lotus Ford 4; VW 5 sp gearbox; chassis Lotus 1962; colour: orange; remarks: Cosworth Ford, junior chassis.
Further in the text:
Taylor drove the second Team Lotus entry, which was a V8 type chassis frame, with 4-cylinder Coventry-Climax engine and Colotti gearbox, but with 1961 suspension all round. This special car has been built for the Swiss driver Siffert, who was due to take delivery after the race!...With Team Lotus using his new Formula One car the Swiss driver Siffert was loaned a special 1500-cc Ford engine by Chapman to put in his Junior chassis. This engine uses 105E Junior type bore, with a Classic crankshaft and was Cosworth tuned, with two double-choke Weber carburetters.
About the twin camshaft engine, Motor Sport, July 1962 issue:
Entered by the Essex racing team, this little green car was a Lotus 23 rear-engined sports car with a special Lotus engine comprised of a 2 o.h.c. alloy cylinder head, with twin Weber carburetters, on a Ford block of 1.5-litres capacity....This special Lotus-developed engine, which is intented for a production sports car later on this year, was giving 100 b.h.p. and being run as an endurance test of a production unit rather than a pure racing engine...
#25
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:22
Originally posted by D-Type
The Brussels race was on April 1st and the Nurburgring 1000km was on May 27th. Clark's Lotus 23 ran in the 2000cc class while the other 23's were in the 1000cc class.
Memory is a fallible creature, but I have always understood that the Nurburgring car had a 1500 Ford-derived twin cam, progenitor of the Elan engine.
Fallible... as proven...
I have no doubt that it was a 5-bearing engine, and that it was 1498cc (if not 1558cc) as it was a precursor to the Elan and Lotus Cortina unit, as stated by Jenks.
#26
Joe Bosworth
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:47
To try to clarify the first use of the 1498 cc Twin Cam engine I have researched 1962-63 Automobile Year, Doug Nye’s The Story of Lotus, Chris Harvey’s Lotus, Anthony Pritchard’s Lotus The Sports Racing Cars, R&T Sep 1962 and other magazine references. I think that I can put close to 100% certainty to the following.
The Lotus 23 debuted at the Racing Car Show in January 1962 with 1098 cc engine. It was listed as available with 997 and 1475 cc engines, all FJ derived. Early testing is reported using a 997 cc engine.
John Blunsden reported in the March issue of Sports Car as having tested it in 1097 FJ form and Renault gearbox at Goodwood.
For the Nurburgring ADAC 1000 km Rennen on 27 May 1962 Jim Clark/Trevor Taylor were entered by the Essex Racing Team in a thinly disguised team directed by Mike Costin. The Lotus 23 was equipped with the first publicly shown version of the twin cam head.
The entry was reported in some quarters with a1475 cc engine based on the 109E Ford; the most authoritative by David Phipps. Interestingly the engine was a very mild version reported with valve diameters of 1.53 and 1.45 inches but a cam with inlet opening at a gentle 14 degrees BTDC. Max HP was at a reported 5900 rpm.
However, Pritchard reports as having clearly seen casting marks on the side of the block denoting 116E, being the first of the five bearing 1498 cc engines. The twin cam was the topping and a Hewland VW based trannie was at the end.
Any discrepancy between Phipps and Pritchard seems in my mind at least to be settled by the authority of Automobile Year which has the advantage of being published well after the fact and all dust having settled. They identify the engine as being a five bearing unit.
Some of the confusion in May may have been deliberate as the 116E was yet to be publicly released which only occurred later in July.
There may be some interesting info on how an early 116E got out of the Ford factory early but I will leave it to others closer to the detail to clarify.
The rest is history.
Regards
The Lotus 23 debuted at the Racing Car Show in January 1962 with 1098 cc engine. It was listed as available with 997 and 1475 cc engines, all FJ derived. Early testing is reported using a 997 cc engine.
John Blunsden reported in the March issue of Sports Car as having tested it in 1097 FJ form and Renault gearbox at Goodwood.
For the Nurburgring ADAC 1000 km Rennen on 27 May 1962 Jim Clark/Trevor Taylor were entered by the Essex Racing Team in a thinly disguised team directed by Mike Costin. The Lotus 23 was equipped with the first publicly shown version of the twin cam head.
The entry was reported in some quarters with a1475 cc engine based on the 109E Ford; the most authoritative by David Phipps. Interestingly the engine was a very mild version reported with valve diameters of 1.53 and 1.45 inches but a cam with inlet opening at a gentle 14 degrees BTDC. Max HP was at a reported 5900 rpm.
However, Pritchard reports as having clearly seen casting marks on the side of the block denoting 116E, being the first of the five bearing 1498 cc engines. The twin cam was the topping and a Hewland VW based trannie was at the end.
Any discrepancy between Phipps and Pritchard seems in my mind at least to be settled by the authority of Automobile Year which has the advantage of being published well after the fact and all dust having settled. They identify the engine as being a five bearing unit.
Some of the confusion in May may have been deliberate as the 116E was yet to be publicly released which only occurred later in July.
There may be some interesting info on how an early 116E got out of the Ford factory early but I will leave it to others closer to the detail to clarify.
The rest is history.
Regards
#27
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 05:35
Seeing as the 125E that was soon to come was really a joint effort between Lotus, Cosworth and Ford, it's easy to see why a pre-production 5-bearing bottom end should be used in this entry...
#28
Roger Clark
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 07:35
Autosport also said in their race report that the Nurburgring engine had a five bearings and 116E stamped on the block.
At the time, the twin-cam engine was said to be produced in 997 and 1098 cc forms as well as 1475. However, apart from the abortive Le Mans entry, I'm not aware of any engine appearing with the smaller capacities.
Ray, are you sure that the Lotus Cortina (I think that's the 125E) was a joint effort involving Cosworth?
At the time, the twin-cam engine was said to be produced in 997 and 1098 cc forms as well as 1475. However, apart from the abortive Le Mans entry, I'm not aware of any engine appearing with the smaller capacities.
Ray, are you sure that the Lotus Cortina (I think that's the 125E) was a joint effort involving Cosworth?
#29
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 08:55
Cosworth had a part in the head design... also, the 125E rods were much stronger than other rods in the Ford range, so it's possible Cosworth contributed to that.
#30
Patrick Fletcher
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 09:41
This is from a Ford Engine and SE Sales Dept. release in July 1963 - for an advertisment in Motor Sport September 1963....
105E 997cc
112E 1340cc
115E 1198cc
122E 1498cc
[and for some fun]
216E 1703cc
217E 2553cc
Page 720 will confirm
With a set of Cosworth 85mm pistons you could have a lot of fun with the top four blocks !
105E 997cc
112E 1340cc
115E 1198cc
122E 1498cc
[and for some fun]
216E 1703cc
217E 2553cc
Page 720 will confirm
With a set of Cosworth 85mm pistons you could have a lot of fun with the top four blocks !
#31
Patrick Fletcher
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:12
Cosworth had some very nice options for club racers in the early 60's
105E Based
MK III 1000cc 81 X 48.4
MK IV 1100cc 85 X 48.4 FJ
116E Based
MK XII 1600cc 83.5 X 72.75
12 series had serial numbers starting at 12xxxxx
13 series had serial numbers starting at 13xxxxx [dry sump]
15 series had serial numbers starting at 15xxxxx [wet sump]
Base price was about 400 quid for the 105E series
105E Based
MK III 1000cc 81 X 48.4
MK IV 1100cc 85 X 48.4 FJ
116E Based
MK XII 1600cc 83.5 X 72.75
12 series had serial numbers starting at 12xxxxx
13 series had serial numbers starting at 13xxxxx [dry sump]
15 series had serial numbers starting at 15xxxxx [wet sump]
Base price was about 400 quid for the 105E series
#32
Roger Clark
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:30
Interesting. Graham Robson's Cosworth history specifically says that Cosworth were't involved in the head design. They did produce a number of racing versions later.Originally posted by Ray Bell
Cosworth had a part in the head design... also, the 125E rods were much stronger than other rods in the Ford range, so it's possible Cosworth contributed to that.
#33
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:47
Okay, Roger, I'm working purely from memory... and I could be wrong...
But I feel confident that I read that in a magazine at the time. Or, perhaps, I've gone too far by saying 'Cosworth' and it might have been just Duckworth (or Costin?) who had a part in the design?
It is a poor design, by the way, in a number of ways. Ask anyone who's nursed them at high power outputs for any length of time.
But I feel confident that I read that in a magazine at the time. Or, perhaps, I've gone too far by saying 'Cosworth' and it might have been just Duckworth (or Costin?) who had a part in the design?
It is a poor design, by the way, in a number of ways. Ask anyone who's nursed them at high power outputs for any length of time.
#34
GIGLEUX
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 11:02
The head design was Harry Mundy work.
Cosworth MkX, 1963, 1498cc: experimental forerunner of production Lotus twin-cam engine fitted to Elan with twin chain-driven overhead camshafts and cross-flow cylinder head. Production engine had capacity of 1558cc.
Cosworth MkXII, 1963, 1594cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: bored out version of Lotus twin-cam engine with dry-sump lubrication and standard cast-iron connecting roads and crankshaft.
Cosworth MkXIII, 1963, 1594cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: development of MkXII with improved dry-sump lubrication and latterly with steel rods and crankshaft.
Cosworth MkXV, 1963, 1594cc 140bhp at 6500 rpm: wet-sump Lotus twin-cam engine fitted to Cortina-Lotus for Group 2 racing.
Cosworth MkXVI, 193, 1498cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: 81mm bore version of MkXIII for racing in New-Zealand and Australia.
Cosworth MkX, 1963, 1498cc: experimental forerunner of production Lotus twin-cam engine fitted to Elan with twin chain-driven overhead camshafts and cross-flow cylinder head. Production engine had capacity of 1558cc.
Cosworth MkXII, 1963, 1594cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: bored out version of Lotus twin-cam engine with dry-sump lubrication and standard cast-iron connecting roads and crankshaft.
Cosworth MkXIII, 1963, 1594cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: development of MkXII with improved dry-sump lubrication and latterly with steel rods and crankshaft.
Cosworth MkXV, 1963, 1594cc 140bhp at 6500 rpm: wet-sump Lotus twin-cam engine fitted to Cortina-Lotus for Group 2 racing.
Cosworth MkXVI, 193, 1498cc 140 bhp at 6500 rpm: 81mm bore version of MkXIII for racing in New-Zealand and Australia.
#35
Allen Brown
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 18:30
Does anyone know approximately how many were built of each of these designs?
Allen
Allen
#36
Michael Oliver
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 22:45
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Interesting. Graham Robson's Cosworth history specifically says that Cosworth were't involved in the head design. They did produce a number of racing versions later.
Are you sure Roger? I suppose it depends on what you mean by being involved in the head design. Looking at my copy, it says that the head was designed by Harry Mundy but that Duckworth and co 'redesigned the ports and added a bit of structure to the head'. It goes on to quote Miles Wilkins, who says: 'Therefore, the final shape of the head, including the oil breather arrangement, was produced by Keith Duckworth'. It continues 'Once Cosworth had sorted out the final specification of the Twin-Cam cylinder head, race-engine development went ahead smoothly...'
That sounds to me as if you could say that they were at least involved in the head specification/refinement, if not the original design?
I only know about these passages of text because two days ago I was looking something up for a piece I was writing about Duckworth and I wanted to be sure whether or not Cosworth had been involved in the Lotus Twin-Cam engine project as it was another example of the paths of Lotus and Cosworth crossing prior to the DFV engine.
#37
Michael Oliver
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 23:01
Originally posted by David McKinney
If the car was built - or at least completed - for this particular race, it could well have been given an FL number. Certainly later Lotuses were given FL suffixes in the middle of what had by then become an F2 sequence (eg, Geoghegan's 32)
And IIRC Siffert never raced a 22 in FJ, which might have otherwise thrown suspicion on the numbering
I am sure Siffert did race an Lotus in FJ though, didn't he? I only ask because I've just come back from a viewing of the Jo Siffert movie and I thought there was a shot of one in it. The problem was that it was subtitled and I spent most of my time trying to read them, as they were in French, rather than watching the movie!
Anyway, I understand it was an 18? I met one of his former mechanics last week, who has only recently sold Siffert's old garage that he took over sometime after his death. He said that they started with the ex-Michael May Stanguellini, then went on to the 18, which he went to Cheshunt to build. He stayed with Seppi until 1968, stopping only when they had completed 49/R7 and delivered it to Brands Hatch for the 1968 British GP...
#38
Roger Clark
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 23:10
I was referring to Appendix 1 which says of the Mark X engine:
"A one-off experimental development version of the famous Lotus-Ford twin-cam engine, which had a cylinder head designed by Harry Mundy (not by Cosworth)..." Robson's italics.
Cosworth went on to produce various racing versions as listed by Gigleux above. Robson says that Duckworth was invited to get involved in July 1962, after the Nurburgring 1000 kms. It may, or may not, be interesting that the Cosworth Mark X is dated 1963.
"A one-off experimental development version of the famous Lotus-Ford twin-cam engine, which had a cylinder head designed by Harry Mundy (not by Cosworth)..." Robson's italics.
Cosworth went on to produce various racing versions as listed by Gigleux above. Robson says that Duckworth was invited to get involved in July 1962, after the Nurburgring 1000 kms. It may, or may not, be interesting that the Cosworth Mark X is dated 1963.
#39
Allen Brown
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 23:12
I would not know a FJ from an iguana's elbow but I can google quite well. Stefan Örnerdal's rather excellent www.formula2.net shows Siffert in an Ecurie Romande Lotus 22 in three FJ races in April and May 1962.
Allen
Allen
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#40
Allen Brown
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 23:19
Sorry, that was only half a post.
(Oulton Park Spring Cup 7 Apr 1962 - 8th in a Lotus 20)
Preis von Wien 15 Apr 1962 - FIRST
Circuito del Garda 1 May 1962 - retired (won Heat 1)
Avusrennen 13 May 1962 - FIRST
Allen
(Oulton Park Spring Cup 7 Apr 1962 - 8th in a Lotus 20)
Preis von Wien 15 Apr 1962 - FIRST
Circuito del Garda 1 May 1962 - retired (won Heat 1)
Avusrennen 13 May 1962 - FIRST
Allen
#41
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 December 2005 - 23:36
Originally posted by Allen Brown
.....www.formula2.net shows Siffert in an Ecurie Romande Lotus 22 in three FJ races in April and May 1962.
That wouldn't be a surprise...
Though the car might have been built and numbers as a FLibre car, it would only involve the engine and wheels to change it back to FJr. Possibly the box, but not very likely.
Then again, it might have been yet another car.
Interesting stuff on Duckworth's involvement there, Michael. Like I said before, I'm fairly confident that I read from the very beginning that Cosworth had a part in the head design.
#42
GIGLEUX
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 02:57
Originally posted by Allen Brown
Sorry, that was only half a post.
(Oulton Park Spring Cup 7 Apr 1962 - 8th in a Lotus 20)
Preis von Wien 15 Apr 1962 - FIRST
Circuito del Garda 1 May 1962 - retired (won Heat 1)
Avusrennen 13 May 1962 - FIRST
Allen
From photos, at Garda Siffert was driving a Lotus 18.
#43
Rob29
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:24
I have photo of Siffert on grid at Garda 1962,from Cavallini book 'Circuito del Garda' clearly a Lotus 22. He had an 18 in 1961.Originally posted by GIGLEUX
From photos, at Garda Siffert was driving a Lotus 18.
#44
Peter Morley
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 12:47
I remember a French guy running an ex-Siffert Lotus junior several years ago, with a 1500cc engine (e.g. in F1 spec.), those in the paddock who tended to knock anyone else's car used to say that Siffert had a lot of Lotus juniors because he was the importer (e.g. ex-Siffert junior is not necessarily the F1 spec car he ran).
However the chassis plate on this car seems to suggest it was something different, and might have a much better claim than others.
However the chassis plate on this car seems to suggest it was something different, and might have a much better claim than others.
#45
Michael Oliver
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 21:32
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I was referring to Appendix 1 which says of the Mark X engine:
"A one-off experimental development version of the famous Lotus-Ford twin-cam engine, which had a cylinder head designed by Harry Mundy (not by Cosworth)..." Robson's italics.
Cosworth went on to produce various racing versions as listed by Gigleux above. Robson says that Duckworth was invited to get involved in July 1962, after the Nurburgring 1000 kms. It may, or may not, be interesting that the Cosworth Mark X is dated 1963.
Yes, Roger, I see your point but I was saying that while the original design may have been Harry Mundy's the final engine featured a great deal of input from Cosworth, according to the same book.
I suspect the difference in the timing is that July 62 was when Duckworth became involved and the final design/evolution of the engine may not have been signed off until early 1963?
#46
Michael Oliver
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 21:39
Originally posted by David McKinney
If the car was built - or at least completed - for this particular race, it could well have been given an FL number. Certainly later Lotuses were given FL suffixes in the middle of what had by then become an F2 sequence (eg, Geoghegan's 32)
And IIRC Siffert never raced a 22 in FJ, which might have otherwise thrown suspicion on the numbering
I meant to ask, David, why might it otherwise have thrown suspicion on the numbering?
There is some home movie footage of a red Lotus Junior being loaded onto a trailer in the Jo Siffert film but it doesn't give a date. I'll have a look and see if there are any race numbers shown and try and tie the car to a particular race meeting which might help identify the type. Might even be your car Bruce!
#47
GIGLEUX
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 23:18
Originally posted by Michael Oliver
Yes, Roger, I see your point but I was saying that while the original design may have been Harry Mundy's the final engine featured a great deal of input from Cosworth, according to the same book.
I suspect the difference in the timing is that July 62 was when Duckworth became involved and the final design/evolution of the engine may not have been signed off until early 1963?
But the engine worked perfectly in Clark's Lotus 23 at the Nurburgring in May 1962, in fact before Cosworth involvement which I don't deny, but "redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris et quae sunt Mundy".
#48
Michael Oliver
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 23:29
Originally posted by GIGLEUX
But the engine worked perfectly in Clark's Lotus 23 at the Nurburgring in May 1962, in fact before Cosworth involvement which I don't deny, but "redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris et quae sunt Mundy".
Good point indeed, Jean-Maurice!
#49
Ray Bell
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 23:45
I don't know what that Latin was all about... but...
Some time in the future someone's going to remember there was a thread that concentrated on this engine. Doubtless they'll have trouble remembering what precipitated it!
And as for Cosworth's 'input'... there may be dozens of areas in which Cosworth could have altered things. Perhaps valve sizes, port shapes, valve guide detail, cam buckets (were they not Alfa?), timing chain and tensioner/s, undoubtedly camshaft profiles and maybe even lubrication galleries.
Personally, I was surprised when I first saw a Lotus 23 (Geoghegans', Warwick Farm October 1962) and found it didn't have a twin cam in it. And it wouldn't for some time.
Getting an idea of when these engines were put out in numbers, both in production (Elans and Lotus Cortinas) and racing versions would help identify what likelihood there was that Cosworth input was substantial or not.
Some time in the future someone's going to remember there was a thread that concentrated on this engine. Doubtless they'll have trouble remembering what precipitated it!
And as for Cosworth's 'input'... there may be dozens of areas in which Cosworth could have altered things. Perhaps valve sizes, port shapes, valve guide detail, cam buckets (were they not Alfa?), timing chain and tensioner/s, undoubtedly camshaft profiles and maybe even lubrication galleries.
Personally, I was surprised when I first saw a Lotus 23 (Geoghegans', Warwick Farm October 1962) and found it didn't have a twin cam in it. And it wouldn't for some time.
Getting an idea of when these engines were put out in numbers, both in production (Elans and Lotus Cortinas) and racing versions would help identify what likelihood there was that Cosworth input was substantial or not.
#50
Rob Miller
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Posted 31 December 2005 - 00:56
the engine worked perfectly in Clark's Lotus 23 at the Nurburgring in May 1962
Better than perfectly, the car led going away for the first 11 laps until fumes from a broken exhaust caused Clark to crash.
