So, it's Christmas day (Hic) and I'm sitting here with a close friend who owns a Lotus Seventeen. He has had it for nearly thirty years and it never seems as fast as it should be.... In period the Seventeen never threatened the Lola Mk1 the way it was intended to mostly, I am assured, because Chapman's insistance on an all strut suspension limited the road holding. My friends car is supposedly the only Seventeen left with all strut suspension, most having been converted to double A arm. Why was Chapman so insistant? Was he just trying to make a point?
Merry Christmas to those who are still on Dec 25th.
David B
Ps Got a scanner for Christmas!!
Lotus Seventeen
Started by
David Birchall
, Dec 26 2005 00:47
18 replies to this topic
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#2
Wolf
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 01:39
Jolly good on You, David, I hope we'll all 'profit' from that scanner.;)
As for Chapman and suspension, I recall that Pomeroy was quite amused (Design & Behaviour... IIANM- usu. Christmas and speaking off top of my head caveat applied ;)) by his theory that understeer should be good for race car. If I got the story right, Moss was not so amused and asked that the whole front ARB be removed from his Vanwall.
Cestit Bozic svima. (That is, Merry Christmas to all).
As for Chapman and suspension, I recall that Pomeroy was quite amused (Design & Behaviour... IIANM- usu. Christmas and speaking off top of my head caveat applied ;)) by his theory that understeer should be good for race car. If I got the story right, Moss was not so amused and asked that the whole front ARB be removed from his Vanwall.
Cestit Bozic svima. (That is, Merry Christmas to all).
#3
T54
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 03:53
...by his theory that understeer should be good for race car.
He must have been thinking in advance about the type 29, 34 and 38... without understeer, you may kiss the wall real quick.
#4
Milan Fistonic
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 04:03
Chris Harvey, in his book, claims the 17 had "sufficient speed to keep up with the Lolas ... before succumbing to Lotus's seemingly never-ending mechanical problems."
He finishes up by saying, "If only there had been more time to develop the Lotus 17 ... but the age of the mid-engined racing cars were upon it."
He finishes up by saying, "If only there had been more time to develop the Lotus 17 ... but the age of the mid-engined racing cars were upon it."
#5
gilby
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 11:40
the quickest "17"is the GILBY!
#6
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 13:24
Don't be bashful...
Tell us why!
Tell us why!
#7
gilby
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 15:32
oh yes!
in fact, Len Terry designed the Gilby in 1959, everyday after its work with lotus. He condemned the short strut suspension of the 17 but was overruled! Colin Chapman decided that the design must go through ....the 17 was ill borned!
The suspension of the Gilby was designed by Len in the way he wanted to do the 17 !
The front suspension is a double whisbone layout( with anti dive caracteristics) and the rear suspension is a "chapman strut" layout "Len Terry designed"! : in the chapman system,cornering applies side loads to the struts, the resultant "stiction" tends to impair their response to track irregularities. In Len design, this deficiency was minimized by making each strut separate from its hub carrier and connecting its by a substancial yoke( + long legs struts)...the recults: in 1960 the one off Gilby never finished lower than third ,fighting the works Lola and Lotus ; Its greatest success was Peter Arundell victory in the "archie scott brown trophy" at snetterton beating P.ashdow and Beckaert Lister.
The story repeated in 1976 when i bought her..Faster than the Lola , Lister and Lotus and even better on the wet (i remember a very hot dice with Ed Swart Ferrari SWB at Spa!!on a half wet half dry track). If Colin Chapman had listened Len Terry , the Lotus 17 should have been a Lola eater and the Gilby would have never existed!
in fact, Len Terry designed the Gilby in 1959, everyday after its work with lotus. He condemned the short strut suspension of the 17 but was overruled! Colin Chapman decided that the design must go through ....the 17 was ill borned!
The suspension of the Gilby was designed by Len in the way he wanted to do the 17 !
The front suspension is a double whisbone layout( with anti dive caracteristics) and the rear suspension is a "chapman strut" layout "Len Terry designed"! : in the chapman system,cornering applies side loads to the struts, the resultant "stiction" tends to impair their response to track irregularities. In Len design, this deficiency was minimized by making each strut separate from its hub carrier and connecting its by a substancial yoke( + long legs struts)...the recults: in 1960 the one off Gilby never finished lower than third ,fighting the works Lola and Lotus ; Its greatest success was Peter Arundell victory in the "archie scott brown trophy" at snetterton beating P.ashdow and Beckaert Lister.
The story repeated in 1976 when i bought her..Faster than the Lola , Lister and Lotus and even better on the wet (i remember a very hot dice with Ed Swart Ferrari SWB at Spa!!on a half wet half dry track). If Colin Chapman had listened Len Terry , the Lotus 17 should have been a Lola eater and the Gilby would have never existed!
#8
David McKinney
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 16:21
Fascinating stuff, Lionel
How different was (is) the Gilby chassis-frame from a Lotus 17's?
How different was (is) the Gilby chassis-frame from a Lotus 17's?
#9
gilby
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 16:50
very light chassis( 50 lbs)and strong:45 years old!. it's quite a small "birdcage" with a lot of very small tubes. The 17 is more "lotus" with less tubes and bigger diameter. I will have a look in my old photos, i have got some of the naked chassis (during a rebuilt after a "take off" over Philippe Renault Lister in Montlhéry!).
#10
gilby
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 17:18
url=http://img435.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mh6pb.jpg][img=http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/3807/mh6pb.th.jpg][/url]
the chassis
the chassis
#11
gilby
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#12
David Birchall
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 21:43
I recall the Gilby (shouldn't there be an 'e' in that?) coming up for sale in the seventies. I had just bought a climax engined sports racer here in Canada. My friend aquired the Seventeen at about the same time. It was fitted with a FWB 1500cc Climax engine either before it arrived in Canada, in 1959, or immediately after and this it still has. This is the car that Olivier Gendebien drove at Westwood and broke the lap record after only three laps. It has never left the area since. It was in very rough condition when aquired by my friend and it took years to rebuild. Here it is at Westwood (Wetwood!) in the eighties:
#13
D-Type
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 22:08
There's definitely no 'e' in Gilby. The car was made by Syd (Sid?) Greene's Gilby Engineering Ltd for his son Keith Greene to race. They moved on to produce the 1961 Gilby-Climax and 1962 Gilby-BRM cars.
#14
David Birchall
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 23:00
Right, I was thinking of the gin 
#15
D-Type
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Posted 26 December 2005 - 23:02
Understandable, given the dateOriginally posted by David Birchall
Right, I was thinking of the gin
#16
David Birchall
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Posted 27 December 2005 - 00:46
Since I need to practise with my new scanner, here are some shots of Lotus Seventeens under restoration. The rear of the chassis:
The front of the same chassis with an almost complete Seventeen below:
The almost complete car, with the bare chassis above it on the table.
The story of these two cars so far as I know: Peter Price, a friend and a dealer turned up with both Seventeens in and on his pick up truck one day at the home of the owner of the first Seventeen I mentioned-the car that Gendebien drove-I was there on this occasion. Given the small number of Seventeens produced this was pretty startling at the time. Peter had acquired them from a university professor on the understanding that he restore one for the professor and would get the other in payment. The almost finished car is the one for the professor. The chassis on the table is the car that when finished was sold to a dealer in UK who sold it to someone in the States and it is the car that BS Levy drove at Lime Rock (?) a couple of years ago under the impression that it was the ex-Gendebien car! It seems that the dealer who bought it from Peter Price also phoned my friend who has owned the ex-Gendebien car for almost 30 years and got the story from him then the story seemed to get attached to the car he was selling..... Note that both these cars have 'A' arm suspension.
The front of the same chassis with an almost complete Seventeen below:
The almost complete car, with the bare chassis above it on the table.
The story of these two cars so far as I know: Peter Price, a friend and a dealer turned up with both Seventeens in and on his pick up truck one day at the home of the owner of the first Seventeen I mentioned-the car that Gendebien drove-I was there on this occasion. Given the small number of Seventeens produced this was pretty startling at the time. Peter had acquired them from a university professor on the understanding that he restore one for the professor and would get the other in payment. The almost finished car is the one for the professor. The chassis on the table is the car that when finished was sold to a dealer in UK who sold it to someone in the States and it is the car that BS Levy drove at Lime Rock (?) a couple of years ago under the impression that it was the ex-Gendebien car! It seems that the dealer who bought it from Peter Price also phoned my friend who has owned the ex-Gendebien car for almost 30 years and got the story from him then the story seemed to get attached to the car he was selling..... Note that both these cars have 'A' arm suspension.
#17
ltvrt
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Posted 24 February 2006 - 13:49
lotus 17
do you still have your 17?
i had a 17 in 1979 chassis nr 662(?) i sold it to the US where is believe it is still running strong
Peter Horseman, who runs a 17, has been in touch with Len terry directly. on following len's advice Peter improved his lap times by 3 seconds!!
#18
David Birchall
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Posted 24 February 2006 - 16:34
Originally posted by ltvrt
do you still have your 17?
i had a 17 in 1979 chassis nr 662(?) i sold it to the US where is believe it is still running strong
Peter Horseman, who runs a 17, has been in touch with Len terry directly. on following len's advice Peter improved his lap times by 3 seconds!!
Hello, are you directing the question to me Itvrt?
It is a close friend who owns a Seventeen and he has no intention of selling. I am sure he would like to hear what Len Terry suggested, how can he get in touch with peter horseman?
#19
ltvrt
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Posted 07 March 2006 - 19:33
contact andrew tart on AndrewTart@aol.com he looks after peter's lotus 17. Len gave him all the advice
the 662 question mark was not a question, after 25 years i was not sure of the chassis number of the 17 i owned and drove.
good luck
the 662 question mark was not a question, after 25 years i was not sure of the chassis number of the 17 i owned and drove.
good luck
