Alfa Romeo - March 89 CE Indycar

HI ALL
WAS READING THE OTHER DAY IN A BOOK - "FIRST AMONG CHAMPIONS " - ABOUT THE ALFA ROMEO INDY CAR PROJECT FROM 1989 .
IT SAID THERE THAT THE ENGINE OF THE CAR IS A FERRARI ONE AND THE CHASSIS IS FROM MARCH .
BUT THEY ARE NOT GIVING MUCH DETAILS MORE THEN THAT .

CAN ANY ONE HERE GIVE SOME MORE LIGHT PLEASE ON THIS ...?

THANKS
DUBY

No need to yell, mate.

But first a picture (or two) :

http://www.thegaffer...a_cart_1989.jpg

http://www.mitoalfar...s/usa/indy3.JPG

According to http://www.marchives.com/ you are right about the Ferrari connection.

The motor is related to the Chevy of the period, as the Patrick Team ran Chevys before switching to Alfa power, and actually sent one of the motors to Alfa

The architecture of the Alfa Romeo V8 owed much to the Ferrari /Lancia V8 used in Group C racing and an abortive Ferrari entry into CART.

From original March press release
The Alfa Romeo engine for Indy car racing was designed by the team of designers led by Claudio Lombardi and consisting of Giovanni Roffina, Luciano Caruso and Giuseppe D’Agostino. This brand new engine has been built in record time. In October of 1988 it was still on the drawing board. In February 1989 it was running on the test bench. Just a month later, it was completing its first laps in a March 88C “muletta” test bed at Monza, with drivers Bruno Giacomelli, Roberto Guerrero and Giorgio Francia sharing the wheel. Classic technical solutions have been chosen to first and foremost ensure reliability, it is a 90-degree 8 cylinder V-shaped engine with aluminium crankcase and cylinder heads. Timing is based on one double overhead camshaft per bank and four valves per cylinder. Valve caps and other minor parts are made of magnesium. The 2648 cc displacement is achieved with a cylinder diameter of 86 mm and a stroke of 57 mm. Intake is at the center of the “V” and exhausts are lateral. The architecture of the engine has been designed to enhance the car’s aerodynamics, i.e. the engine must not interfere with the “tunnels” under the body, which exploit the Venturi downforce effect which is vital in Indy car racing. Neither should the engine’s height disturb the flow of the air toward the rear wing. Turbocharging is provided by a Garrett Turbo coupled with a waste gate and CART specification pop-off valve. The Magneti Marelli indirect electronic ignition with two injectors per cylinder is integrated with the ignition. This is of a static/direct type with capacitive exhaust. The small ignition coils, in other words, are mounted directly on the spark plugs. The designers have paid special attention to fuel feed and combustion because pure methanol is the specified fuel. Methanol has two fundamental properties which make it stand out from other fuels. Its heating power (i.e. number of calories per unit of weight) is about half that of gasoline and specific fuel consumption is double. Its latent vaporization heat (the calories necessary to vaporize one unit of weight) is two to three times higher than that of gasoline. This creates big problems in starting and in operation under partial loads. However once normal running temperatures are reached the calories taken from the air by the process of vaporization of the mixture actually have a cooling effect in the intake area, negating the need for an intercooler. At the current stage of development the engine has a power of 680 BHP at 11500 rpm and weights 342 lbs. Its extreme compactness has facilitated its accommodation into the March-built chassis.

HI AND THANKS .
SOORY FOR THE SIZE OF THE FONTS , I HAVE SOME PROBLEM WITH MY PC KEYBOARD...

"...it was completing its first laps in a March 88C “muletta” test bed at Monza, with drivers Bruno Giacomelli, Roberto Guerrero and Giorgio Francia sharing the wheel. ..."

SO , THEY BROUGHT A MARCH 88 TO MONZA FROM THE U.S ?
ANY PICS OF THAT EARLY TESTS ?

THANKS

DUBY

Originally posted by duby
HI AND THANKS .
SOORY FOR THE SIZE OF THE FONTS , I HAVE SOME PROBLEM WITH MY PC KEYBOARD...

"...it was completing its first laps in a March 88C “muletta” test bed at Monza, with drivers Bruno Giacomelli, Roberto Guerrero and Giorgio Francia sharing the wheel. ..."

SO , THEY BROUGHT A MARCH 88 TO MONZA FROM THE U.S ?
ANY PICS OF THAT EARLY TESTS ?

THANKS

DUBY

Yes, there was an 88C over there in Italy as a part of the deal between March and Alfa.

About the 89CE: Two existed but they were not even duplicates. One had a front pushrod suspension while the other had a Pullrod setup. Now I don't recall out of the top of my head anymore which was the original setup but one of the cars was told to be a modified 88C tub to acceopt the Alfa V8 engine and renamed 89CA in defence to that. If this car was pullrod, then the second, genuine 89CA got pushrod suspension. (Or the other way around, depending on what the 88C had)
Reports were that Guerrero liked the 88c derived 89CA over the newer, genuine 89CE car.
U am still puzzeld abaout whrer the E stood for in 89CE, the more whgile for 1990 they built the 90CA and that A was a bit more explainable

It has been said that the 89 Alfa V8 was a slightly modified Ferrari V8 of the 85/86 Ferrari Indy project but there are also reports that the first Alfa's were newly designed again. One major difference between the Alfa and the Ferrari was that the Ferrai had centerexhausts and side inlet plenums like they had used on their 1980-1985 generation turbo F1 cars. As far as I know the only Indycar engine ever built to use such a lay-out after the demise of the Ford/Foyt Quadcam V8 in 1979.

It is funny that the press release mentioned the compactness of the engine. Even in 1990 that wasn't truly entirely the case.
The actual block itself was compact but it had on each side an oil pump, located on the outside of the cilinderblock, a little under de widest point of the block, making the entire package even wider and raising the cnter of gravity in the process as well.
you can see these pumps at the picture of jbc3 second link.

It was a disastrous project from day one, that March had lost direction too didn't help much either.


Henri

IF I UNDERSTAND , IT IS ALLMOST A REAL ALFA ENGINE , A NEW ONE FOR THE INDY PROJECT WITH MARCH , BUT IN THE BOOK THEY WROTE THAT IT WAS A "BADGED" FERRARI ENGINE...

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY USE 2 ENGINES ?

You can have a look at the engine:

http://mwphoto.smugm.../gallery/652397

THAKS FOR ALL THE PICS , I LIKE THEM .

Originally posted by duby
THAKS FOR ALL THE PICS , I LIKE THEM .

duby, that book you mentioned, what kind of book is it?

I think that it is about fair to say that the Alfa engine was indeed newly designed but relying heavily on knowledged gained with the Ferrari V8 and, the 90 engines also benefitted quite a bit from the fact that Pat Patick managed to get two Ilmor/Chevies to the Alfa design center to have a good, detailed look on the best engine wthin the series.




Henri

WELL , IT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BOOK .
THEY ONLY WROTE ABOUT THE FERRARI PROJECT TO THE INDY AND THAT ALFA TOOK THE SAME ENGINE , BY THE FIAT GROUP ORDER , AND USED IT TO THE INDY CAR .

THE BOOK IS , AS I SAID BEFORE , " FIRST AMONG CHAMPIONS " - DAVID VENEBALES
PUBLISHED BY HANES

THIS IS A LINK TO A PIC OF THE COVER OF THE BOOK , BUT MY BOOK HAS A DIFFERENT ONE

http://images-eu.ama...01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg.

Originally posted by duby
WELL , IT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BOOK .
THEY ONLY WROTE ABOUT THE FERRARI PROJECT TO THE INDY AND THAT ALFA TOOK THE SAME ENGINE , BY THE FIAT GROUP ORDER , AND USED IT TO THE INDY CAR .

THE BOOK IS , AS I SAID BEFORE , " FIRST AMONG CHAMPIONS " - DAVID VENEBALES
PUBLISHED BY HANES

THIS IS A LINK TO A PIC OF THE COVER OF THE BOOK , BUT MY BOOK HAS A DIFFERENT ONE

http://images-eu.ama...01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg.

Thanks, seems to be a book that I've missed out on.

Anyway, I think that with saying that Alfa took up the Ferrari V8 of some years old and went racing with it after all, that is too less credit to the Alfa design staff, they did a bit more for the project I think.
But there's also a thread running on the Alfa GpC project of the same era, the 3.5 atmo car.
And I kind of repeat what I posted within that threat

The Indy project and the GpC project: I wonder how much of a distraction the one project eventually became for the other.


Henri

IS THERE ANY PLACE (WEB-SITE ) THAT HAS ALL THE RACES , RESULTS , DRIVERS - THAT COVER THIS PROJECT ?

I FOUND SOME OF THE RESULTS HERE - http://67.18.8.78/

Originally posted by duby
IS THERE ANY PLACE (WEB-SITE ) THAT HAS ALL THE RACES , RESULTS , DRIVERS - THAT COVER THIS PROJECT ?

I FOUND SOME OF THE RESULTS HERE - http://67.18.8.78/

duby,

one of my wishes to achieve is to gain enough knowledge about computers, internet and webpages to set up a webpage of the Alfa Indy efforst. I have some of it covered already (though pre 1990 and the Lola powered Alfas need more attention) and if I only could find a webmaster who'se willing to host the pages and help me to make it look neat, it would be out to see.
But I'm such a helpless lost soul in this windows saturated world.

Henri

Originally posted by duby
IS THERE ANY PLACE (WEB-SITE ) THAT HAS ALL THE RACES , RESULTS , DRIVERS - THAT COVER THIS PROJECT ?

I FOUND SOME OF THE RESULTS HERE - http://67.18.8.78/

That is my site. I try to list every driver / car combination that ever ran a lap on a race weekend. Of course I don't have all the private testing session on other tracks. But if you choose engine = Alfa Romeo you should get all results.

Originally posted by gbl


That is my site. I try to list every driver / car combination that ever ran a lap on a race weekend. Of course I don't have all the private testing session on other tracks. But if you choose engine = Alfa Romeo you should get all results.

I ENJOY IT VERY MUCH !!!

THANKS FOR THE INFO


DUBY

Originally posted by duby


I ENJOY IT VERY MUCH !!!

THANKS FOR THE INFO


DUBY

Duby:


I don't know anymore where exactly I found the info but within my records about the Alfa project it stated that the 88c chassis that was used by Alfa for test duties was chassis 88C-009.


Henri

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
The architecture of the Alfa Romeo V8 owed much to the Ferrari /Lancia V8 used in Group C racing and an abortive Ferrari entry into CART.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From original March press release
The Alfa Romeo engine for Indy car racing was designed by the team of designers led by Claudio Lombardi and consisting of Giovanni Roffina, Luciano Caruso and Giuseppe D’Agostino. This brand new engine has been built in record time. In October of 1988 it was still on the drawing board. In February 1989 it was running on the test bench. Just a month later, it was completing its first laps in a March 88C “muletta” test bed at Monza, with drivers Bruno Giacomelli, Roberto Guerrero and Giorgio Francia sharing the wheel. Classic technical solutions have been chosen to first and foremost ensure reliability, it is a 90-degree 8 cylinder V-shaped engine with aluminium crankcase and cylinder heads. Timing is based on one double overhead camshaft per bank and four valves per cylinder. Valve caps and other minor parts are made of magnesium. The 2648 cc displacement is achieved with a cylinder diameter of 86 mm and a stroke of 57 mm. Intake is at the center of the “V” and exhausts are lateral. The architecture of the engine has been designed to enhance the car’s aerodynamics, i.e. the engine must not interfere with the “tunnels” under the body, which exploit the Venturi downforce effect which is vital in Indy car racing. Neither should the engine’s height disturb the flow of the air toward the rear wing. Turbocharging is provided by a Garrett Turbo coupled with a waste gate and CART specification pop-off valve. The Magneti Marelli indirect electronic ignition with two injectors per cylinder is integrated with the ignition. This is of a static/direct type with capacitive exhaust. The small ignition coils, in other words, are mounted directly on the spark plugs. The designers have paid special attention to fuel feed and combustion because pure methanol is the specified fuel. Methanol has two fundamental properties which make it stand out from other fuels. Its heating power (i.e. number of calories per unit of weight) is about half that of gasoline and specific fuel consumption is double. Its latent vaporization heat (the calories necessary to vaporize one unit of weight) is two to three times higher than that of gasoline. This creates big problems in starting and in operation under partial loads. However once normal running temperatures are reached the calories taken from the air by the process of vaporization of the mixture actually have a cooling effect in the intake area, negating the need for an intercooler. At the current stage of development the engine has a power of 680 BHP at 11500 rpm and weights 342 lbs. Its extreme compactness has facilitated its accommodation into the March-built chassis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neat piece.
Problem is that Alfacorse presskits about the Indycars have to be read with caution.
I have the kit of the 1990 car and within the piece about the chassis it reads that the March 90CA is:
"The ideal home for the Alfa Romeo Indy V8"

Now I have been at Indy in 1990 (I still thank God for that) and I've seen the cars that were entered that year in Gasoline Alley from nearby. And if there was one car out there of which you said the instant you saw it: "That one doesn't look good" it was the March-Alfa. The March-Porsche also looked strange but at least that looked better and hiding untapped promise. The March-Alfa simply didn't look good and so it proved, given the fact that the car was ditched a little over halfway the season and Patrick Racing didn't even bother to show up the race before Michigan to race that contraption 90CA one last time.
The 90CA looked so ungainly that a friend of mine and I agreed that a '87 Lola (and they were the vintage cars that year, there were a few, powered by Buick V6'es) even looked better and more promising that the March 90CA.
And that was, according March "The ideal home for the Indy Alfa Indy V8"

Regrettably, I've never seen the 89CA in real but even when studying the pictures of that car, though it looks being bigger and bulkier than the relatively nimble 90CA, I still think the 89CA is looking better on pictures that the 90CA taken from the same angles.

Henri

Just how close is the Alfa motor to the Chevy of the same period. I have heard that Patrick shipped a Chevy motor to Alfa, and that the Alfa motor is pretty much a clone of the Chevy

Originally posted by dretceterini
Just how close is the Alfa motor to the Chevy of the same period. I have heard that Patrick shipped a Chevy motor to Alfa, and that the Alfa motor is pretty much a clone of the Chevy

Not one but two went to Italy!

Well, one thing they didn't change on the Alfa was those highly located oil pumps just below the cylinderblocks. I have pictures of an Alfa V8 being serviced while standing on a bench and much to my surprise `the V8 Alfa still had those earlobe like oilpumps`.


I'ts been posted several times but because of Pattrick shipping those engines to Italy, that was the reason why Chevy then tightnened the lease contracts and never allowed engines to be out of sight anymore. And when Alfa left CART and Pattrick needed new engines, Chevy showed him the door. Even if that meant that Bobby Rahal was without an engine deal, Chevy didn't care. Revenge on Pattrickw was what it was all about. To save bobby, Pattrick sold his team to Rahal so he became the owner (and brought in Carl Hogan too) When they approached Chevy for engines they got them instantly. Rahal became champion that year....


Henri
The Chevy influence was likely very much to be found within the block.

Originally posted by duby
HI AND THANKS .

"...it was completing its first laps in a March 88C “muletta” test bed at Monza, with drivers Bruno Giacomelli, Roberto Guerrero and Giorgio Francia sharing the wheel. ..."

SO , THEY BROUGHT A MARCH 88 TO MONZA FROM THE U.S ?
ANY PICS OF THAT EARLY TESTS ?

THANKS

DUBY

duby,

Alfacorse joined forces with Morlaes Racing, run by Johnny Capels at the end of 1988 as a partner for the 1989 season.
Using the Hungness 88 yearbook as a reference, according the entry list, Morales racing had entered two March 88C's, I can't confirm if there were two but there wa at least one, a car entered as 21T but qualified by driver Howdy Holmes who eventually finished 12th.
The chassis number of this car was 88C-9: So instead of Alfa obtaining an 88c, it was merely partner Morales Racing supplying some of its inventory to Alfa for test duties.


Henri

Originally posted by Henri Greuter

Thanks, seems to be a book that I've missed out on.

Anyway, I think that with saying that Alfa took up the Ferrari V8 of some years old and went racing with it after all, that is too less credit to the Alfa design staff, they did a bit more for the project I think.
But there's also a thread running on the Alfa GpC project of the same era, the 3.5 atmo car.
And I kind of repeat what I posted within that threat

The Indy project and the GpC project: I wonder how much of a distraction the one project eventually became for the other.


Henri

I would not hesitate to warmly recommend Venables' book for his chapters on the 158-159, which were his original project, also for the pre-war period (P2, 8C, Tipo A, B & C), but certainly not for the last chapters on modern racing.

Sorry, but it looks so blatantly that the author didn't care about those chapters... and they are full of mistakes, wrong types and specs, well, just crap, IMHO.

The Alfa engine for sure took the Ferrari experiment as a starting point, but was compelled to evolve over the 3 seasons (due to lack of results) that, as in most racing engines nowadays, there was probably not much left from the original project at the end of its life. I never researched how much it was contrived by the initial layout and design, but as far as I remember, the Chevy engine "borrowed" through Patrick Racing was on second year, and served as an inspiration for the evolution steps, not for the basic design. That was about, as far as I remember, the specific issue, in thermodynamics and combustion chamber design, related to methanol as fuel, both for performance and fuel economy.

When Alfa eventually gave up the Indy project, it was also because they were reluctant to face the major investments needed to redesign some engine features in order to close the gap with the Chevy over the race duration, while in pure power the Alfa wasn't that bad.

The Alfa Romeo racing management, as the whole brand management, could not have been worse than over those early years after Fiat's takeover.

If I remember correctly, GM execs were so upset at Pat Patrick that he was barred from getting any more Ilmor engines after the "Half-Chevy" interlude. Or is it "Alfa-Chev"?
I also remember that the car looked pathetic and performed accordingly.

May I confess that I've never been enthusiastic about that venture....

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


I would not hesitate to warmly recommend Venables' book for his chapters on the 158-159, which were his original project, also for the pre-war period (P2, 8C, Tipo A, B & C), but certainly not for the last chapters on modern racing.

Sorry, but it looks so blatantly that the author didn't care about those chapters... and they are full of mistakes, wrong types and specs, well, just crap, IMHO.

AS I SEE IT , HE ALLMOST WROTE NOTHING ABOUT THE INDY PROJECT .
WHEN I READ IT AGAIN , AFTER ALL THOSE INFO I GOT FROM HERE , I THOUGHT THAT MAY BE SOME ONE TOLD HIM TO FINISH IT FAST , AS THE TRAIN IS ABOUT TO LEAVE....

Originally posted by T54
If I remember correctly, GM execs were so upset at Pat Patrick that he was barred from getting any more Ilmor engines after the "Half-Chevy" interlude. Or is it "Alfa-Chev"?
I also remember that the car looked pathetic and performed accordingly.

Yup, see my post #23 a few messages up.

As far as the Marches, they were pathetic, the Lola's did a bit better, because of at least the engines were powering a decent chassis this time.


Henri

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


I would not hesitate to warmly recommend Venables' book for his chapters on the 158-159, which were his original project, also for the pre-war period (P2, 8C, Tipo A, B & C), but certainly not for the last chapters on modern racing.

Sorry, but it looks so blatantly that the author didn't care about those chapters... and they are full of mistakes, wrong types and specs, well, just crap, IMHO.

The Alfa engine for sure took the Ferrari experiment as a starting point, but was compelled to evolve over the 3 seasons (due to lack of results) that, as in most racing engines nowadays, there was probably not much left from the original project at the end of its life. I never researched how much it was contrived by the initial layout and design, but as far as I remember, the Chevy engine "borrowed" through Patrick Racing was on second year, and served as an inspiration for the evolution steps, not for the basic design. That was about, as far as I remember, the specific issue, in thermodynamics and combustion chamber design, related to methanol as fuel, both for performance and fuel economy.

When Alfa eventually gave up the Indy project, it was also because they were reluctant to face the major investments needed to redesign some engine features in order to close the gap with the Chevy over the race duration, while in pure power the Alfa wasn't that bad.

The Alfa Romeo racing management, as the whole brand management, could not have been worse than over those early years after Fiat's takeover.

Thanks for your reply.
As far as your info on the Alfy Indy V8, I know you're right, it was indeed like that.


Henri

I had an Alfa Indy motor at my shop and took liberty to disassemble it just because I needed to know what was inside . I have photographs here at the house but my recent adventures have slowed things down a little. I'll try to find, select and post a couple photos in the next few days.

--Carter

Originally posted by Carter Hendricks
I had an Alfa Indy motor at my shop and took liberty to disassemble it just because I needed to know what was inside . I have photographs here at the house but my recent adventures have slowed things down a little. I'll try to find, select and post a couple photos in the next few days.

--Carter

Hey Carter!

We've met in June 1994 at your shop when you still worked on the Panamericana Alfa!
I visited with George Peters and you told me about having written about your car for the Dutch Alfa club magazine. I got myself a copy of that particular edition in turn for a story about the 1990 and 1991 Alfa adventures at Indy as I saw them from first hand.

As for the Alfa engines, I have seen one too in the Summer of 1996 in the St Louis car museum. My picture was a failure regrettably.
I always assumed it ended up there because of Chuck Haines having something to do with that. One of his Eagle-Offies was out there for sale too.
But I would not be surprised if you ended up with the engine I saw that year.
I hope you will post those shots you made.

Great to hear from you, how is the Carrera car nowadays?



henri