Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

It's Graham, and it's a Brabham. But...

Started by Cirrus , Jan 08 2006 18:09

Please log in to reply

40 replies to this topic

#1 Cirrus

Member

1,753 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 18:09

I don't quite know how I came across this - but can anyone shed any lght on the aerodynamic appendages on this car?

(I tried to set up a link to the source of this picture, but failed - so here's a copy of it - copyright unknown)

Posted Image

#2 Macca

Member

3,728 posts
Joined: January 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 18:13

Funnily enough, Alan, I found that photo too and was going to post it on a athread about early aerodynamics......but I don't know where either, only I'm sure I've seen a pic of another Brabham with those on it.

Paul M

#3 Cirrus

Member

1,753 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 18:23

It's intriguing - isn't it? The BT10 was a 1964 F2 car, and I can't find ny record of Graham Hill racing one with the number 4......

#4 Macca

Member

3,728 posts
Joined: January 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 18:42

Oulton Park Gold cup 1964:

http://www.formula2.net/F264_19.htm

(and NGH is wearing the rubber collar he wore in late summer 1964, eg Austrian GP)

Paul M

#5 Cirrus

Member

1,753 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 18:46

Of course! - how could I miss that. Maybe John Coombs remembers the background to the appendages. Ron T is in the UK soon, so I'll ask him if he knows anything about it, and if he doesn't, then maybe he can ask "Noddy".

#6 2F-001

Member

4,245 posts
Joined: November 01

Posted 08 January 2006 - 19:10

Regarding Graham's neckwear...
I have a Max le Grand picture** of NGH standing contemplatively on the railed pit road at Silverstone, foot on wheel, chin on hand, (dated as '65 Grand Prix). He's wearing the rubber collar there: was a safety measure akin to current foam neckbrace or was he nursing an injury? I'd always assumed the former - the latter possibility has only just occured to me. (The collar looks as if it might be inflatable.)

(**I think the image is quite well known - the print is Graham White, but I think the image is from the Ludvigsen Library. It's much too large to get on my scanner at home - even if I were to consider it prudent to do so - a lovely picture though.)

#7 MCS

Member

4,700 posts
Joined: June 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 21:35

Originally posted by Macca
Oulton Park Gold cup 1964:

http://www.formula2.net/F264_19.htm

Forgive me for drifting away from the subject a little, but I noticed the following ......
Entry Number 17 Sid Fox, GB - David Prophet Racing Brabham BT10 - Cosworth SCA

Just curious as to why David Prophet would be entering somebody else and why Sid (Syd?) Fox ?

#8 D-Type

Member

9,706 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 08 January 2006 - 21:41

Totally OT - the results of the Gold Cup came as a surprise - I never realised that Jackie Stewart had ever raced alongside Jim Clark for Team Lotus (admittedly the Ron Harris version). Food for thought.

#9 philippe charuest

Member

701 posts
Joined: March 01

Posted 08 January 2006 - 21:57

what was the john coombs team "colors" . my guess is white and dark blue ?

#10 Vitesse2

Administrator

41,877 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 08 January 2006 - 21:58

Can't shed any light on the aerodynamics but the collar was (IIRC) consequent on his spectacular shunt in the Daily Mirror Trophy at Snetterton when he demolished the first P261.

#11 Vitesse2

Administrator

41,877 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 08 January 2006 - 22:04

Originally posted by philippe charuest
what was the john coombs team "colors" . my guess is white and dark blue ?

Pale blue and dark green. Here's a 1966 pic:

Posted Image

#12 Vincenzo Lancia

Member

131 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 09 January 2006 - 00:37

Going back on the subject - but certainly just guessing though: While seeming to have some sort of aerodynamics related purpose - those "things" don't look to me as if they have a downforce related purpose. Note how the seemingly "open" at the back... creating I would say almost as much "upforce" as downforce. Could it be cooling of brakes related - redirecting air from the front airintake to the brakes?

EDIT: Looked again and realized that this really doesn't make sense as the brakes should get a lot of air anyway... so maybe it's an attempt to diminish the "air braking effect" of the suspension.... :confused:

#13 Vicuna

Member

1,607 posts
Joined: March 02

Posted 09 January 2006 - 01:52

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Pale blue and dark green. Here's a 1966 pic:

Was it a Coombs F2 car that JYS raced in 1970.

That was white with blue AIR

#14 Twin Window

Nostalgia Host

6,611 posts
Joined: May 04

Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:45

Originally posted by Vicuna

Was it a Coombs F2 car that JYS raced in 1970.

That was white with blue AIR

It was; and as you say, it was white with blue trim. Cevert drove a Coombs March in 1972 which was adorned in a similar use of those colours.

#15 zoff2005

Member

277 posts
Joined: October 05

Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:23

Originally posted by Macca
Funnily enough, Alan, I found that photo too and was going to post it on a athread about early aerodynamics......but I don't know where either, only I'm sure I've seen a pic of another Brabham with those on it.

Paul M

Frank Gardner ran nose wings on his BT6 Formula Junior in 1963. Just flattish ones, not like these which seem to be triangular in section.

#16 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:14

Hang on a minute, chaps.

Surely John Coombs' cars were pale grey. As to the nose colour, I was never quite sure - dark blue, dark green, black ????

But I'm pretty sure about the grey because the famous Coombs E-type was the same colour.

#17 Vitesse2

Administrator

41,877 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:33

Can we compromise on a pale blue/grey Barry? But I'd agree with Vicuna and Twinny on the 1970 colours being white and blue.

#18 scarbs

Member

743 posts
Joined: May 01

Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:43

Were they cooling outlets?
I'm not sure how far forwards the radiator sits in the nose, but these seem to be placed and shaped to extract hot air.

#19 2F-001

Member

4,245 posts
Joined: November 01

Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:28

But wouldn't that be directing warm air towards the dampers, brakes and wheel bearings?

#20 Huw Jadvantich

Member

602 posts
Joined: July 04

Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:31

I would hazard a guess that they are more likely to be a cooling aid to the drivers feet, in that the ducts, if there are any under those projections, will be behind the radiator and therefor let hot air out, rather than direct cool air to the brakes. It certainly looks like they are ducts as some attempt has been made to make a seal between their front edges and the nose cone.
As an interesting aside, if they were aerodynamic (and they would be regardless of whether they made the front go up or down!) it wouldn't be the first time NGH had prevented Brabham making an aerodynamic breakthrough years ahead of their time.
Ron Tauranac told me that the BT34 would have achieved ground effect via its central front wing if NGH hadn't insisted on running it flat to get more speed on the straights.......from the horses mouth.......

#21 bill patterson

Member

154 posts
Joined: January 05

Posted 09 January 2006 - 12:11

I agree with Barry Boor - the colour was pale grey with a question over black, dark blue or dark green for the nose band. I cannot "compromise" on pale blue!

Would the aerodynamic appendages be more to divert/streamline air from the aerodynamically "unclean" suspension components rather than to serve for downforce?

#22 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 09 January 2006 - 16:25

Hooray, thanks Bill. I wasn't going to argue but I am absolutely unanimous in the light grey....

#23 MrAerodynamicist

Member

14,226 posts
Joined: March 99

Posted 09 January 2006 - 19:14

Unless somebody can find a reverse angle shot to reveal something, I think those ought to be filed in the MaxPower school of aerodynamic appendages

They're symmetric and at zero incidence, so they're not going to be producing lift. If the intention was to divert the flow around the aerodynamically messy suspension, then they've shot themselves in the foot: the blunt tailing edge that I assume is present will be producing tons of drag. Some sort of exhaust vent system, even if not well thought out, would seem to be the most logical explanation.

#24 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 09 January 2006 - 19:19

Ah yes, Mr. A, but given the knowledge at the time, I'm sure they seemed like a VERY GOOD IDEA! :lol:

#25 MrAerodynamicist

Member

14,226 posts
Joined: March 99

Posted 09 January 2006 - 19:38

Of course even in '64, there wasn't a lack of aerodynamic knowledge; a society that has been flying supersonic for 17 years clearly had enough underlying knowledge to do a much better job. The problem as always is trying to (a) make that first leap which only seems obvious with hindsight (b) get decent cross-pollenation of knowledge between disciplines.

#26 Twin Window

Nostalgia Host

6,611 posts
Joined: May 04

Posted 09 January 2006 - 19:50

Judging by the NGH pic, Coombs changed his livery further down the road...

Posted Image

On Cevert's Coombs March 722 the white is white (check out the helmet for a reference), and the blue is blue (check out the Elf logo). Stewart's 1970 Brabham was adorned in the same colours. :up:

#27 philippe charuest

Member

701 posts
Joined: March 01

Posted 09 January 2006 - 19:57

that why it was my first guess . the 1970 coombs bt30 of stewart was at mont tremblant last year. im not sure but i thinq its john coombs who tookover the matra f2 tyrell operation in 68 and 69 but the cars were in "bleu france"

#28 Doug Nye

Member

11,535 posts
Joined: February 02

Posted 09 January 2006 - 22:17

No, no, no - Noddy Coombs' cars for Graham were a very pale Jaguar grey - not any shade of blue, nor white. I think the nose band was actually black, but I can check. Any drift from that pale grey - as on Noddy's Jaguar saloons and the prototype Lightweight E-Type '4 WPD' is due to the vagaries of colour photography and/or colour reproduction in print. The Hill-driven cars - based in my home town of Guildford and prepared for Noddy by Roland Law, were pale grey and pale grey ONLY. Incidentally I believe that the nose fairings tried at Oulton were just that - fairings, intended to minimise the obstructive aerodynamic effects of the Brabham's outboard coilspring/damper units relative to the inboard-spring rival Lotuses. I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth the effort, and they surely had virtually neutral lift effect. Just look at them. No downforce from those babies...

DCN

#29 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 09 January 2006 - 22:20

Woohoo!

(Basks in reflected glory.....)

#30 Doug Nye

Member

11,535 posts
Joined: February 02

Posted 09 January 2006 - 22:21

Quite rightly too. :up:

#31 Roger Clark

Member

7,509 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 09 January 2006 - 22:31

Whatever they were, the things were also on the nose of Coombs' Brabham at Brands Hatch on 3rd august.

#32 Twin Window

Nostalgia Host

6,611 posts
Joined: May 04

Posted 09 January 2006 - 22:37

Do you remember if it was for 1970 that he changed liveries, Doug?

#33 Ian McKean

Member

480 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 10 January 2006 - 00:13

Originally posted by Doug Nye
No, no, no - Noddy Coombs' cars for Graham were a very pale Jaguar grey - not any shade of blue, nor white. I think the nose band was actually black, but I can check. Any drift from that pale grey - as on Noddy's Jaguar saloons and the prototype Lightweight E-Type '4 WPD' is due to the vagaries of colour photography and/or colour reproduction in print. The Hill-driven cars - based in my home town of Guildford and prepared for Noddy by Roland Law, were pale grey and pale grey ONLY. Incidentally I believe that the nose fairings tried at Oulton were just that - fairings, intended to minimise the obstructive aerodynamic effects of the Brabham's outboard coilspring/damper units relative to the inboard-spring rival Lotuses. I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth the effort, and they surely had virtually neutral lift effect. Just look at them. No downforce from those babies...

DCN

I certainly wouldn't have called it pale blue or white, but it certainly wasn't grey either. Off-white is the nearest expression I can think of to describe Coombs Jaguars and the Brabham looks to be similar.

Is Coombs still alive BTW?

#34 Vicuna

Member

1,607 posts
Joined: March 02

Posted 10 January 2006 - 00:30

I was sure BUY1 (or was it BUY2) was grey.

Then again, I thought the latest MotorSport was green... :drunk:

#35 Huw Jadvantich

Member

602 posts
Joined: July 04

Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:16

So which race was it that Cevert converted his helmet tricolor to red blue and grey?

#36 Doug Nye

Member

11,535 posts
Joined: February 02

Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:07

Sorry, but.... - GRAHAM'S COOMBS BRABHAM WAS LIVERIED IN GREY - FOR OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS THAT IS 'GRAY' , AS WAS '4 WPD' AND THE COOMBS JAGUAR SALOONS AND ALSO NODDY'S FERRARI 250GTO.

The later entries Noddy made for the Formula 2 cars of Stewart and Cevert were definitely lighter but from memory I don't think their base colour was a true 'brilliant' white, more an off-white inclining towards grey (stone) as opposed to yellow (i.e. producing a cream colour).

But Graham's earlier Coombs cars like the F2 Brabham, F2 Cooper, F2 Lotus and F2 Matra were - as Barry has recalled - in normal circs DEFINITELY GREY, GREY, GREY.... :mad:

DCN

PS - Yes, John Coombs is very much alive and keeps generally in amazingly good form, looking barely any older than in his heyday, he was sharp as a pin when I last saw him back in September and he is very much a respected elder statesman of British motor sport, originally as an owner/driver, latterly and more prominently as owner/entrant.

#37 Ray Bell

Member

80,271 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:19

There's no question that these appendages aren't to help the radiator exhaust from the body... they're located either ahead of the radiator or just beside it.

As Mr A has pointed out, there was a little aerodynamic knowledge around by that time... it was only a season or two later Jack was using bits of aluminium to deflect air at the suspension opening, which is the normal outlet from the radiator.

Check a picture of his 1966 GP cars to see what I mean...

#38 Huw Jadvantich

Member

602 posts
Joined: July 04

Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:39

Whilst the appendages themselves are likely alongside the radiator, the hole or vertical slot that I am surmising that they hide could still be behind the radiator. My guess is that what appendages do is create a nice low pressure area behind them for that hot air to escape into. Whether that was to cool the drivers feet or improve cooling performance who knows, but having put that forward I would love to hear a more sensible explanation!

#39 Ray Bell

Member

80,271 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:54

They are too far forward even for that, I will venture...

For the outlets to be behind the radiator, we'd see them in this picture.

#40 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 11 January 2006 - 16:15

If every other team running similar cars at that time found the cooling adequate, why would the Coombs team feel the need to assist the radiator?

This is a red herring, IMHO. They are just trying to get a bit of extra grip at the front end using a home-made, non-technical method.