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Brabham BT23C/1

Started by Huw Jadvantich , Jan 16 2006 10:06

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52 replies to this topic

#1 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:06

Where is this car now?

#2 Stephen W

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:20

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Where is this car now?

Surely you mean the BT32C/1? I understand Hugo Tipping-Ewwor is the current owner! :rotfl:

#3 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:40

No i can account for that one, it is in the hands of Cout Euser Spelczek :blush:

#4 Ted Walker

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 11:30

confused .are we talking about brabham bt23c-1 or not. if so it was last heard of in new south wales

#5 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 11:46

We are, unfortunately I misstyped the name of the thread, hence the low brow humour above.
Yep, I'm interested to find the history of Brabham BT23C/1.
I note you say its in NSW. its not painted in Rondel colours now is it?

#6 Ted Walker

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 13:47

It was never a Rondel Car ???? Supplied new to Frank williams and painted his usual dark mettalic blue.

#7 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 21:44

Yes I realise it WAS a Frank Williams car Ted, but I had seen some pics of F2 Brabhams painted up in the Rondel scheme and wondered if 23C/1 was one of them.
What I am interested to know is when Frank got rid of it, who it went to and where it is now

#8 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 22:41

My notes are a bit jumbled on 23C/1, so add a pinch or two of salt; David, Bryan, HELP!

Brabham/Gardner
Piko Troberg/Harry Stiller -Frank Williams
1970 Bob Howlings
Rodney Seow, Singapore
1980 Mike Truter, Singapore
1983 Brian Wilson NSW.

(edit to make it more readable)

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 22:42

The Rondel F2 Brabhams were later models

Williams raced BT23C/1 only a couple of times at the end of 1968
It then raced in New Zealand (possibly under a lease arrangement) in early 1969 and in Europe again later that year with Graham McRae
I believe it later went to southeast Asia and about 20 years ago to an Australian owner

#10 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 22:53

Originally posted by David McKinney
again later that year with Graham McRae

Yes Autosport reports Graham McRae in the car, I have written down in my note book, 'Autosport 1969 page 9' :confused:

#11 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 00:20

Mr Jadvantich Sir, I hope you dont mind if I list the other BT23C's in case anyone can add anything.
(I just wonder what Atlas can do that 10 Tenths hasn't!!)

2. 1968 Lythgoe/Gethin, 1969 Whitmore/Don Godden
3. ?
4. Chris Lambert, destroyed Zandervoort
5. Winklemann/Rindt, 1969 Gerry Birrell, 1973 Joe Applegarth, 2003 Justin Segel USA (also a chassis in NSW)
6. Max Mosely, 1969 Peter Parnell, 1970 Arnold Charlton
7. Piers Courage, Roly Levis, Robertson crashed, 2002 Bobby Rahal USA
8. Kurt Ahrens, 1969 Bernd Terbeck, 1977 Bill Morris
9. Derek Bell, Lawrence Brownlie
10. Malcom Payne, 1969 Garth McGilliwie, '70 Tony Dean, '71 Rod Pickering, '72 Bob Howlings, '73 Bob Snelson
11. Winklemann/Rees/Mitter, '69 Bill Ivy, Brian Cullen, 2004 Maverick Motorsport
12. Scuderia Picchio Rosso, Williams/Manfredini/Guthrie, Bob Gerard/Widdows/Hart, '70 Gerry Tyzack, 2005 Peter Ball USA
14. Carlos Piaretti
15. Eduardo Copello
16. Williams/Bordeu/Courage/Ickx, 1970 Alister Walker, Gagliardi, Macello Gallo?
17. Jorge Cuperio, 1970 Baron Robertson (#7?), 1971 Kelvin Cameron, destroyed 1978?

p.s. I will post a photo when I can access ImageShack :

#12 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 00:46

Originally posted by David McKinney

Williams raced BT23C/1 only a couple of times at the end of 1968

Maybe this chassis was the prototype BT23 [Vegantune twincam] that Fred McLean shipped out for Laurence Brownlie - then Roly Levis / Bill Smith / Australia.

#13 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:34

The only BT23 I have as going to Australia or NZ is BT23-5, the ex Rindt car that is now in Sydney. I have Brownlie and Levis in different chassis', guess I am wrong, Patrick do you know where the car is now? -damn I saw Roly Levis in '04 and I never thought to ask when we discussed his 23C.

#14 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 02:42

F2R lists the following drivers for the BT23C’s in 1968

Rindt, Ahrens, Courage, Williams, Rees, Lambert, Mosley, Bell, Gethin, Manfredini, Elford, Westbury, Lambert, Hart, Corti, Mitter, Brambilla(E), Brown, Troberg, Moser

And in the Temporada Argentina add,
Bordeu, Cupeiro, Copello, Pairetti, Veiga, Reutemann, Fangio

#15 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:23

2 of Brian Wilson's Brabhams, sorry the photo is so useless, the 23C is almost hidden but I cant find a better one

Posted Image

#16 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:30

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
The only BT23 I have as going to Australia or NZ is BT23-5, the ex Rindt car that is now in Sydney. I have Brownlie and Levis in different chassis', guess I am wrong, Patrick do you know where the car is now? -damn I saw Roly Levis in '04 and I never thought to ask when we discussed his 23C.

I have no idea where the frame for BT23C/1 is but something tells me we are about to find out!
After the Hulme / Brownlie crash at the 1968 NZGP the Vegantune 1500 twincam went to Alan McCully and the other bits or what was left maybe went to Roly Levis.
In 1969 Team Lexington had two BT23C FVA entered by Frank Williams Racing for Levis and Brownlie. These two cars had nothing to do with the frame in question.

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 07:08

The Fred McLean car is a red herring. It was not a BT23C, nor even a BT23, but an uprated BT18. Only the engine and gearbox were saved after Brownlie's Pukekohe accident. It was never raced by Roly Levis - he raced a BT6, a BT18 and his BT23C. Bill Smith's Brabham was another BT6

Three BT23Cs raced in New Zealand. Drivers in 1969 were Laurence Brownlie and Graham McRae (BT23C/1) and Levis (BT23C/7). By the following NZ season BT23C was back in the UK and BT23C/17 had been sold to Baron Robertson, but was crashed heavily (during a test by Levis). Robertson appeared the following season with BT23C/17 which had the running gear from the crashed car. This was not necessarily the same BT23C/17 raced earlier by Cupeiro ;) It was this car which, as Andrew says, went to Kelvin Caeron and was destroyed by fire about 1978
Robertson had meanwhile rebuilt BT23C/7 as a Formula Ford car - it was raced by his mechanic Phil Harris (who much later raced an F2 BT23C in the US) and others, then restored to F2 spec and sold to the UK in the 1980s

#18 Ted Walker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:12

BT23c-3 was raced by Bill Ivy.Chassis 5,10 and 16 are in a "private collection" in the UK.

#19 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:12

I was trying !

#20 Stephen W

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:30

In 1972 Maurice Ogier, a Channel Islander, ran a BT23C in the British Sprint Championship. Anyone out there got any idea which chassis it was?

:wave:

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 10:56

Originally posted by Ted Walker
BT23c-3 was raced by Bill Ivy

My notes say Ivy's car was BT23C/11
I have no record of BT23C/3 racing in 1969 (the year Ivy raced) or indeed in 1968

#22 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 11:02

Great stuff boys - is NSW the conclusive answer?
Dave McK can you elucidate on your reply about the car after its NZ season, it went to Europe.
Graham McRae drove it in the European 1969 season, when it was entered by Frank Williams (was it owned by Frank or GPM?) so did it go back to NZ with him...or what?...and then what?

#23 David McKinney

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 11:19

As indicated in my earlier post, I suspect BT23C/1 was leased from Frank Williams for its NZ races; whether or not McRae ever owned it I am not sure. It never returned to NZ
As also stated earlier, it went from the UK to Singapore

#24 Ted Walker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 14:09

David .Quite right,finger trouble 23c-3 automobile club argentina. Probably still there.I last saw 23c-11 at steve worrads place last year. I think its gone to thechap who owns the Rindt Lotus49 and transporter(although Rindt never drove chassis5).

#25 Mallory Dan

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 16:40

I think there was a chap called Eike Wellhausen who had a BT23 of some sort in UK Libre in the mid 70s. No idea which one I'm afraid.

#26 bschenker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 18:22

Andrew Fellows
F2R lists the following drivers for the BT23C’s in 1968

Rindt, Ahrens, Courage, Williams, Rees, Lambert, Mosley, Bell, Gethin, Manfredini, Elford, Westbury, Lambert, Hart, Corti, Mitter, Brambilla(E), Brown, Troberg, Moser

And in the Temporada Argentina add,
Bordeu, Cupeiro, Copello, Pairetti, Veiga, Reutemann, Fangio

Silvio Moser was never owner of a Brabham BT23
Silvio Moser also have never raced with a Brabham BT23

#27 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 20:51

Also in New Zealand briefly (although there just as a spare for Courage) was a BT23C that was then used by Guthrie in the Australian races. I've assumed that was BT23C/12, the same car Guthrie then raced in F2 until his BT30 was ready. Anyone know if that's right?

Allen

#28 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 21:15

Originally posted by bschenker
Silvio Moser was never owner of a Brabham BT23
Silvio Moser also have never raced with a Brabham BT23

Beat, your are quite correct, what I meant to say the list was those that were entered to race a BT23C in 1968. My apologies.

He was entered by Charles Vögele Racing Team for the Eifelrennen on the 21st April 1968 but D.N.A.

#29 bschenker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 21:27

this was Brabham BT20-2

#30 bschenker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 21:32

Sorry i havent checked the date.
1968 Silvio want to buy a Brabham BT21 for the F2, but ther was not enoug money so wy buy the Tecno. First race at Zolder under the colors of Charles Vögele (over al the season), but the car was propertie from Silvio Moser.

#31 bschenker

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 21:33

Sorry i havent checked the date.
1968 Silvio want to buy a Brabham BT23 for the F2, but ther was not enoug money so wy buy the Tecno. First race at Zolder under the colors of Charles Vögele (over al the season), but the car was propertie from Silvio Moser.

#32 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 01:05

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Also in New Zealand briefly (although there just as a spare for Courage) was a BT23C that was then used by Guthrie in the Australian races. I've assumed that was BT23C/12, the same car Guthrie then raced in F2 until his BT30 was ready. Anyone know if that's right? Allen

Allen I've just been chatting on the phone to Bryan and he's asked me to post that it was a BT21B that Guthrie used here.

Brian Wison also brought back two other cars from Singapore, one being BT30-14 ex Gethin but when they ruled no wings on pre '70 that car and another that was here, BT30-3 went to the States.
I well remember 30-3 when Chris Mann had it in the UK in early 80's, I remember it 'cause he must have kept the original 1970 tyres on it, hard as nails and a speed to match. :rotfl:

#33 David McKinney

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:54

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Also in New Zealand briefly (although there just as a spare for Courage) was a BT23C that was then used by Guthrie in the Australian races. I've assumed that was BT23C/12, the same car Guthrie then raced in F2 until his BT30 was ready. Anyone know if that's right?
Allen

This is all news to me, too
Was the BT23C a back-up to Courage's McLaren M4A? Not impossible, I suppose, but why take a year-old car of another make?
I've never heard anything about Guthrie racing a BT23C in Australia - just the BT21B mentioned by Andrew

#34 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 07:43

Once again, great spade work gentlemen, I appreciate your efforts.

#35 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 09:00

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
Allen I've just been chatting on the phone to Bryan and he's asked me to post that it was a BT21B that Guthrie used here.

Originally posted by David McKinney
I've never heard anything about Guthrie racing a BT23C in Australia - just the BT21B mentioned by Andrew

Well that's unanimous so I must be wrong.

The car I was asking about was Guthrie's 1969 car, a Williams entry that was originally intended just for Australia but was taken to NZ as well as a backup in case anything went wrong with Courage's BT24. In the end, Guthrie raced it in NZ as well.

I checked my notes on this identification and they just refer me back to the page on 10 Tenths where the BT23C histories are discussed. I can't see exactly why I assumed his Brabham was a BT23C instead of a BT21B. Maybe it was the FVA that confused me - I'd never heard of a BT21B F3 car with a FVA in the back.

Can anyone tell me more about this BT21B? Do we know where it came from or where it went or its chassis number? Have I even got it right about the FVA?

Thanks

Allen

#36 David McKinney

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 11:01

Guthrie's BT21B was c/no 24, fitted with a twincam engine (not an FVA)
Don't know it's earlier history, but it turned up in British historic racing about ten years ago in the hands of Maj Bob Birrell

#37 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 13:04

Thanks David.

(Is there an echo in here?)

#38 Stephen W

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 13:18

Originally posted by Stephen W
In 1972 Maurice Ogier, a Channel Islander, ran a BT23C in the British Sprint Championship. Anyone out there got any idea which chassis it was?

Possibly the ex-Tyack car?

#39 Brian Wilson

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 22:13

Huw

Someone forwarded me this discussion re whereabouts of BT23C-1.

I have it here in Sydney - together with its "sister" BT24-1.

This was the factory car in 1967, driven by Jack and Frank Gardner.

They leased or loaned it to Williams in 1968, after Courage crashed the Williams car. Williams also took it down to the Temporada Series at the end of 1968, for Courage.

Graham McRae drove it in Europe and some Tasman races in 1969 (when he won the Driver to Europe award).

It was then sold to Rodney Seow in Singapore - minus engine - but never raced because the Singapore GP was banned from that year.

It was retrieved by a friend of mine from a pigsty about 1980. I brought it back to Australia and after restoring it have raced in historic events here for more than twenty years.

Interestingly, we found when we were rebuilding it that it has a chrome moly frame, which is considerably lighter than the customer cars! (We were rebuilding BT23-5 at the same time - the ex-Williams car which I gather somebody else now claims to have!)

Cheers

#40 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 23:34

Brian how nice to see you here, as is the custom here may I say a warm welcome too because I know your input will be greatly appreciated.
I hadn't realised it was a 67 built car, so hence Jack & Frank that I couldn't find in '68. Ah! the light dawns -slowly :blush:

edit: Your other point I missed, No that other chassis here is from BT23C/5, as I understand the story this is a discarded bent chassis that was to be sent to the tip. They were stacked at the back of the works and this one was retirived and brought here. Indeed it may not have even been from C5 so really it no longer has an identity.

2nd Edit: Brian may I mention your web page? I guess most here know it, http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/door/

#41 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 02:35

Another question,

Albi, Sept.24th 1967 both BT23C's retired with head gasket failure, if Jack was in 23C/1 was Frank's car 23C/2?

#42 Michael Clark

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 03:09

Originally posted by Brian Wilson
Huw

Graham McRae drove it in Europe and some Tasman races in 1969 (when he won the Driver to Europe award).

Cheers

I recall Graham first driving the car at Pukekohe in about March 1969, after the Tasman series had finished. He then took it to Europe where it was entered by Frank Williams.

#43 David McKinney

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 06:09

McRae appeared at two NZ meetings, at Pukekohe then Levin
Williams wasn't his only entrant in Europe - he switched to Paul Watson at some stage. Which is why I wasn't sure about the car's ownership throughout that year

#44 Terry Marshall

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 07:33

Here is GP McRae at Levin, November 69 from memory. Posted Image

#45 David McKinney

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 09:39

No, March 1969
Nice shot though, Tel :up:

#46 Vicuna

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 10:49

Beautiful shot actually.

#47 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 11:30

Bryan,
good to know the car survives, and that it has been rebuilt - what stage of its career did you decide to rebuild it to - or have you gone your own way with it?

I noticed a few drivers in the European series in 69 swapped from entrant to entrant. Any one know the story here?

I was trying to work out from the practice times and results of the European series which of the Brabhams had the fastest driver/engine/chassis.
Not a great spread of results to get a clear picture I know, but it seems that
Bill Ivy's car was regularly very fast along with Courage/Ickx, the Bob Gerard cars were, also Paul Watson cars were regularly quick .
So did engines stay with cars or entrants?
Graham McRae seems to be regularly the fastest of the rest, but never appeared in the championship results because of failures or crashes, except for the Belgian race, his best result, which for some reason was not part of the championship.
Thre would also appear to be a shortage of engines at various times of the year within the Williams team. I wonder if there were 'A' grade engines within that team and others, and then 'The rest'.
I am told that Bill Ivy for example had 'rocket' engines. It is interesting to note that No1 had a chrome molley chassis which gives another combination to consider - any ideas as to what this would do to weight, or did it make the chassis stiffer - or both?

#48 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 11:40

Chrome-moly had just become mandatory in Indy which is why the BT12 couldn't run after 1964 (despite all that you might read about McElreath, Andretti and others driving the BT12 after 1964, they were actually driving replicas).

Maybe Brabham was looking at a successor to the BT12 and was experimenting with the relevant construction techniques. When they did go back, it was with a monocoque of course.

Allen

#49 Brian Wilson

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 13:27

Andrew

The other car I was talking about is George Goodare's BT23-5. This is the ex-Winkelman/Rindt car from 1967. I believe somebody in the UK claims to have this car. I've done some more checking and learned that a spare car was sent out from the factory after Denny Hulme crashed BT23-5 in New Zealand. They grafted some of the good bits from BT23-5 onto it, but it was not considered to be BT23-5 at the time - and so isn't now. There are still a few people alive who remember this!

Cheers

Brian

#50 Brian Wilson

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 13:35

Huw

Great shot of McRae in BT23C-1. It was still in these colours - very faded - when I found it in Singapore!

As I mentioned, the chrome moly frame was presumably for lightness - its at least 30 lbs lighter than the standard (Arch Motors) frame on BT23-5!

Cheers

Brian

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Brabham BT23C/1

#1 Huw Jadvantich

#2 Stephen W

#3 Huw Jadvantich

#4 Ted Walker

#5 Huw Jadvantich

#6 Ted Walker

#7 Huw Jadvantich

#8 Andrew Fellowes

#9 David McKinney

#10 Andrew Fellowes

#11 Andrew Fellowes

#12 Patrick Fletcher

#13 Andrew Fellowes

#14 Andrew Fellowes

#15 Andrew Fellowes

#16 Patrick Fletcher

#17 David McKinney

#18 Ted Walker

#19 Patrick Fletcher

#20 Stephen W

#21 David McKinney

#22 Huw Jadvantich

#23 David McKinney

#24 Ted Walker

#25 Mallory Dan

#26 bschenker

#27 Allen Brown

#28 Andrew Fellowes

#29 bschenker

#30 bschenker

#31 bschenker

#32 Andrew Fellowes

#33 David McKinney

#34 Huw Jadvantich

#35 Allen Brown

#36 David McKinney

#37 Allen Brown

#38 Stephen W

#39 Brian Wilson

#40 Andrew Fellowes

#41 Andrew Fellowes

#42 Michael Clark

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#44 Terry Marshall

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