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The word 'raid' in the context of off-road motorsport

Started by Muzza , Jan 18 2006 15:45

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36 replies to this topic

#1 Muzza

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 15:45

Dear TNFers,

Many of you display a vigor for the correct use of the English language which is only rivaled by your passion for motorsports - thus I thought this would be the perfect place for someone like me - a non-native English speaker - to ask such a question...

Rick Kelly and I are at odds about the use of the word "raid", which I have employed to describe long distance rallies such as the Dakar, the Pharaohs and similar events. I seem to recall that in the early 1990s the FIA instituted a World Raid Championship, which was to be a short-lived experience (or so I think).

Rick, on the other hand, states "that word, in the context of auto racing or rallies, is not in any English dictionary that I have seen."

What is your opinion? Is it correct to call long-distance rallies... raids? (We would prefer to make a clear distinction between rallies and "raids", or whatever we call them). Did a World Raid Championship really exist or was it only planned? Am I mistaking one language by another, and attributing texts published by Autosprint or Sport Auto to Autosport or another English-language outlet?

Thanks for your attention - I moved to Massachusetts last August and I have very few references at hand to check (and I won't have them available for the next year and a half...).

Regards,

Muzza

#2 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 16:06

I recall the "raid" word was widely used in the 1980s, but now "cross-country" is used instead.
At least for "official" use. I am not sure why it has been changed, maybe "raid" is too militaristic?

It could also be that the word could be used still in other languages than english.

I still connect the word "raid" with long-distance desert events though.

Jean-Louis Schlesser btw still calls his buggies "Raid".

#3 BRG

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 16:32

It was a French expression (rally-raid) that became the common useage in English too, reflecting the strong French tradition in this sort of event (eg the Dakar and a strong domestic off-road scene).

The ‘Dictionnaire de L'Académie française’ (and who better to ask) says :

RAID. (On prononce le D.) n. m. T. de Guerre emprunté de l'anglais. Incursion rapide en territoire ennemi.
Il se dit aussi, en termes de Sport, d'une Épreuve d'endurance .

That is to say, it is in sports terms a test of endurance. Which seems to describe the Dakar pretty well!

#4 David Birchall

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 16:38

I think it is fair to say that the Frazer Nash Club were the first English car club to use 'raid' to describe a rally. To comemorate their performance in the Alpine Rally IIRC.

#5 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 17:02

Originally posted by BRG
Incursion rapide en territoire ennemi.

So raid means always: "Run like hell!!!!"

#6 philippe7

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 17:30

BRG is right, I think there even was a very official "Championnat du Monde des Rallies-Raids" which existed at some stage.....

In modern day-to-day french a "raid" can indeed still be used in a meaning close to its original "military" english origin ( like if you said some crooks gang went down for a "raid" on a supermarket ...) but most commonly it is indeed a term to define a sporting adventurous walk ( or drive , or paddle, or ride....) in the wilderness . For our friends from down under , the New Zealand "Coast to Coast" would be a perfect example ( we had a few "little brothers" of that in New Caledonia) . The "Raid Gauloises" is another well known event which combines walking, cycling, climbing, canoeing, abseiling, etc....not sure if it is still taking place nowadays however.

#7 D-Type

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 22:10

I think the origin is French. In the twenties and thirties, the Citroen expeditions across the Himalayas, the Gobi, the Sahara etc were known as raids

#8 Disco Stu

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 23:15

There is indeed an FIA Cross-Country Rally World Cup Championship that runs today.

http://www.fia.com/s...2005/cross.html

#9 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 09:06

Yes, the FIA doesn't like the term raid and the official term is Cross Country Rally. There is a World Cup which starts this year in March with Por Las Pampas in Argentina and Chile, then goes on to Tunisia, Morocco, Transiberico in Portugal and Spain, Rallye d'Orient in Turkey, a new event in South Africa, Pharaons in Egypt, and finishes with the Desert Challenge in the UAE.

Fred

#10 T54

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 16:51

Of course, one could misinterpret the true meaning of RAID ... :cat:

Warning to all the Al-Qaeda types out there...

#11 erkelly2

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 19:01

Hello gents -

My argument against the use of "raid" in Motorsport Memorial is that in the context of auto rallies, it is a French word. It is not in any Websters Dictionary and it is not in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary. To the best of my knowledge it is not a recent addition to each, because it is almost never used in everyday English/American.

Motorsport Memorial is an English language website, with special dispensation for all United States entries to use American English when addressing U. S. subjects. (Tyre vs. Tire)

When Sal sits down and tranlates MM into Portuguese, or Pier Paulo translates MM into Italian, or someone from France volunteers to translate MM into French, "raid" should not be used in MM's entries. I would concede to the use of "raid" in the Notes: section, but only if its use is accompanied with a complete definition, explaining that it is a French word whose precise meaning is .......

I rest my case.

Rick Kelly
An American speaking Okie.

#12 Rob29

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 09:48

For some reason I had always thought it was an acronym. Something like 'Rallye Automobile International Desert'?

#13 Kpy

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 12:52

Originally posted by Rob29
For some reason I had always thought it was an acronym. Something like 'Rallye Automobile International Desert'?

Nice guess, but Rick and BRG are right - the word in the sense of rally is French and not English. In fact it pre-dates rallying (I think), since it dates from 1885 in French.
Le Petit Robert - great French dictionary - " RAID (1885) - Long parcours destiné à mettre en valeur la résistance du matériel et l’endurance des participants. Raid automobile (grand rapport de sens - Rallye)"

#14 Muzza

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 13:29

Dear TNFers,

Many thanks for your replies and comments. I don't cease to be amazed with how much knowledge we can unearth at this forum merely by asking the simplest question. And just to demonstrate (once again) my ignorance, I was completely unaware that the FIA does recognize a Cross-Country Rally World Cup Championship that runs today (see link provided above by Disco Stu, http://www.fia.com/s...2005/cross.html).

Based on your postings we will adopt the nomenclature "cross-country rally" to classify such events.

Best regards to all,

Muzza

#15 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 21:19

Muzza,

Maybe not too important, but it is a "World Cup", not a "World Championship". For the FIA there is a considerable difference.

Fred

#16 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 00:46

So much for "grands raids" across the desert... Andre Citroen will now spin in his grave at the thought of the Kegresse cars doing a "cross-country rally" across the dunes of the desert of Gobi... :eek:

#17 David Birchall

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:29

I have often wondered if it is worth going and looking for remains of the tracked Citroen vehicles that were abandoned in northern Canada during a 'Raid'.

#18 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:35

Eaten by the local moose? :lol:

#19 BRG

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 11:07

Originally posted by erkelly2
My argument against the use of "raid" in Motorsport Memorial is that in the context of auto rallies, it is a French word.

Hmmm....

Try 'My argument against the use of "grand prix" in Motorsport Memorial is that in the context of auto races, it is a French word.' for size then. Or do your prefer to call them 'Big Prizes'?

The French pioneered this sort of event, which have grown from the original Dakar rally. In my book, that gives them naming rights. Live with it. It is an international sport, we English-speakers cannot claim sole rights. And 'raid' is a lot snappier than 'cross country rally', which makes a nice change when comparing French and English terminology! Also, aren't all rallies 'cross-country' by definition?

#20 philippe7

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 13:29

Very good point about the word "Grand Prix", BRG.....

Originally posted by BRG
The French pioneered this sort of event, which have grown from the original Dakar rally.

Just for the sake of historical truth , the Paris-Dakar itself grew from the original "Raid Abidjan-Nice" , organised for a few years by Gérard Bertrand . He then decided to move on to something more ambitious , and out of only Africa, by organising something which should have been called the "5-5" Rallye, every year on a different continent....but the first one , scheduled in South America, suffered various delays and finally never took place and the whole project disappeared .

It is while participating in the (second I think) Abidjan-Nice that Thierry Sabine , having gotten lost on his bike in the Ténéré desert , and having had his life saved by tumbling upon a touareg camp after having walked almost to exhaustion, mystically fell in love with the African desert and set off to organise the "Paris-Dakar" Rallye on the ground let free by Bertrand .

#21 jarama

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 14:02

Philippe,

for the sake of the truth, IIRC Bertrand's name was Jean-Claude, instead of Gérard, or I'm I mistaken?

Carles.

#22 philippe7

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 14:14

Of course you're right, Carles, sorry about that ! Professional mix-up I'm afraid ....You see, I work in the wine trade , and Gérard Bertrand is a quite famous winemaker and négociant in the Languedoc , and I happened to discuss his range of products recently with a common client , hence my mistake .....

#23 BRG

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 14:23

Originally posted by philippe7
I happened to discuss his range of products recently with a common client

Is that 'discuss' as in 'digest'?

#24 Kpy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 15:31

Originally posted by BRG
Hmmm....

Try 'My argument against the use of "grand prix" in Motorsport Memorial is that in the context of auto races, it is a French word.' for size then. Or do your prefer to call them 'Big Prizes'?

The French pioneered this sort of event, which have grown from the original Dakar rally. In my book, that gives them naming rights. Live with it. It is an international sport, we English-speakers cannot claim sole rights. And 'raid' is a lot snappier than 'cross country rally', which makes a nice change when comparing French and English terminology! Also, aren't all rallies 'cross-country' by definition?

Nice point, but Grand Prix has entered the English language in a motor racing context. Raid has not. We managed with "Marathon Rally" for London- Sydney, which is a rough approximation of Rallye-Raid . Come to think of it Marathon de la Route cropped up from time to time , notably with Liege-Rome-Liege, and then Liege-Sofia-Liege, and also 84 hours round the Nurburgring.
We call the Grands Prixs de l'ACF and Grands Prixs de France French Grands Prix.
It's just a question of how we use our language, and, to me, it's the events that matter, not what we call them.

#25 philippe7

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 17:47

Originally posted by Kpy

We call the Grands Prixs de l'ACF and Grands Prixs de France

AAArrrgh ! Horror ! Shame ! Prix is unvariable in French , it's one Grand Prix and fifteen Grand Prix, no S please !

You wouldn't say one Grand Preee, fifteen Grand Pricks in english , would you ?

#26 philippe7

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 17:50

Originally posted by BRG
Is that 'discuss' as in 'digest'?

Well, actually no, not this time.....Mister Bertrand is actually a good winemaker , but also ( even more ? ) an excellent media-communication person.....which helps his fame ;)

#27 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 18:06

Originally posted by Kpy

We managed with "Marathon Rally" for London- Sydney, which is a rough approximation of Rallye-Raid . Come to think of it Marathon de la Route cropped up from time to time , notably with Liege-Rome-Liege, and then Liege-Sofia-Liege, and also 84 hours round the Nurburgring.

Just to confuse matters even more the FIA only considers a Cross Country Rally to be a Marathon when it has a minimum of 4000 kms of special stage and 6500 kms total.......

Fred

#28 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 19:14

Can we compromise with "Raidathon"? :wave:

#29 Kpy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 19:22

Originally posted by philippe7

AAArrrgh ! Horror ! Shame ! Prix is unvariable in French , it's one Grand Prix and fifteen Grand Prix, no S please !

You wouldn't say one Grand Preee, fifteen Grand Pricks in english , would you ?

Sorry to all francophones - brain out of gear.;).
But its grands prix in the plural, surely.

#30 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 19:36

Nope...

"Un Grand Prix" or "Les Grand Prix"...
But it is also used: "Tous les grands prix en détail !" seen on the net... However according to the big Larrousse, it is incorrect.

#31 philippe7

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 20:10

Hhhhmmm....that might involve a bit of in-depth checking....I must confess that I might well have naturally typed "les grands prix 1973" without any second thoughts....but I admit the issue is a little tricky ...might as well sleep over that ( and first finish the wine ) and postpone any definite statement until tomorrow....

#32 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 20:36

I have been out of the Old Country for over 35 years now but I was taught in school that "Grand Prix" is an entity like "Ford Comete". One says "one Ford Comete" and "several Ford Cometes"...
Of course, so many things have changed over the past quarter century over there... :
Please let us know what is the correct spelling du jour...

#33 Kpy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 22:10

Originally posted by T54
Nope...
"Un Grand Prix" or "Les Grand Prix"...
But it is also used: "Tous les grands prix en détail !" seen on the net... However according to the big Larrousse, it is incorrect.

I bow to your superior knowledge.

Does this rule only apply to motor racing, or to the French language generally? I ask because the Academie Francaise uses grands prix consistently in its publications. Of course it's referring to prizes for literature, and not to motor racing. I'm curious.
Going back to motor racing, journalists and publishers seem to be unaware of the rule. I'm thinking of Jacques Vassal and Pierre Ménard in particular, jounalists whose work happens to be nearest to hand, and a quick run through Ediitions du Palmier's catalogue.

#34 T54

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 22:14

I ask because the Academie Francaise uses grands prix consistently in its publications.

This is what I mean: what they taught me in school MAY have changed, as in "groovy" became "cool"...

#35 Kpy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 22:34

Originally posted by T54

This is what I mean: what they taught me in school MAY have changed, as in "groovy" became "cool"...

Thanks. My monolingual Petit Robert (which is huge!) and my bilingual Robert & Collins are useless in this case, as neither gives a plural for Grand Prix.

#36 philippe charuest

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 22:50

Originally posted by D-Type
I think the origin is French. In the twenties and thirties, the Citroen expeditions across the Himalayas, the Gobi, the Sahara etc were known as raids

in fact the name gave to these expeditions then , was " la croisière noire" and "la croisière jaune" . not very PC with our modern standard cause the noire/black and jaune/yellow was a refference to africa and asia