I'd like to hear the Shadow Matra story from the someone who was involved or close to it.
Shadow Matra
Started by
Huw Jadvantich
, Jan 21 2006 10:09
31 replies to this topic
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#2
philippe charuest
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 17:41
"bump" id like to learn more about it too
#3
WGD706
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 18:36
What I found was that in 1975 the Matra V12 engines were supplied to Shadow for the Tony Southgate designed Shadow-Matra DN7 and raced by Jean-Pierre Jarier without success in Austria and Italy despite the fact that the Matra V12 produced 30bhp more than the DFV but the team could not afford to fund the development program and gave up the idea.
#4
philippe charuest
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 18:54
i remember a couple of articles were done on the subject in sport-auto in 75 some during the early testing at silverstone , but i remember too that the matra people were not so please by the car preparation and that the oil tank ,catchtank and the engine bed (the matra wasnt 100% stress) was a botch job
#5
WHITE
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 19:15
Originally posted by WGD706
What I found was that in 1975 the Matra V12 engines were supplied to Shadow for the Tony Southgate designed Shadow-Matra DN7 and raced by Jean-Pierre Jarier without success in Austria and Italy despite the fact that the Matra V12 produced 30bhp more than the DFV but the team could not afford to fund the development program and gave up the idea.
I remember having read by them that the code DN7 was used only not to bother Ford. In fact, the car was a DN5 only adapted to receive the Matra engine. It was not a new car.
The following months, there were rumours that the engine, which proved to still be competitive, would be supplied to a french team that was wishing to enter F1. This team would be Ligier and it seems that Jarier would be the driver. However, though the engine was, effectively, supplied to Ligier, it was Laffite who would finally drive the car, not Jarier.
What I do not know is whether Matra had always the intention of supplying the engine to Ligier and "used" Shadow only to check if the engine was still apt to F1, or a possible agreement with Shadow did not materialize because UOP was no longer going to sponsor the team, leaving them with not enough funds for a developing program.
#6
philippe charuest
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 19:39
well in 75 the matra boys were pushing hard to convince the management to build a a complete car and have there own team , the design was very advance (look like very much a 74 ferrari b3) , the ligier project already had the A/ok of matra , at that stage it was Beltoise that was suppose to drive the ligier. but im pretty sure that they were interested to collaborate with an english team too ,shadow or any other team with enough budget, the engine was good and the power was really there not like in 71-72 .the matra had about the same power then the ferrari flat12
#7
subh
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 22:21
Originally posted by WHITE
However, though the engine was, effectively, supplied to Ligier, it was Laffite who would finally drive the car, not Jarier.
Jarier did race once for Ligier-Matra, but not until the end of 1977.
#8
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:14
So do you think the Shadow excercise was simply Matra's suck it and see test for the Ligier, with no serious intent by either partner?
#9
Michael Clark
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 04:05
Originally posted by philippe charuest
well in 75 the matra boys were pushing hard to convince the management to build a a complete car and have there own team , the design was very advance (look like very much a 74 ferrari b3) , the ligier project already had the A/ok of matra , at that stage it was Beltoise that was suppose to drive the ligier. but im pretty sure that they were interested to collaborate with an english team too ,shadow or any other team with enough budget, the engine was good and the power was really there not like in 71-72 .the matra had about the same power then the ferrari flat12
Who designed that car Phillipe?
Was it Ducarouge? Did the Matra basically 'become' the Ligier JS5(?)?
#10
WHITE
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 07:32
Originally posted by Michael Clark
Who designed that car Phillipe?
Was it Ducarouge? Did the Matra basically 'become' the Ligier JS5(?)?
AFAIK, Gerard Ducarouge, Paul Carrillo and Michel Beaujon. All of them had worked for Matra.
#11
WHITE
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 07:43
Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
So do you think the Shadow excercise was simply Matra's suck it and see test for the Ligier, with no serious intent by either partner?
Well, I woud say that Nichols really had an intention of using the engine if it still were competitive enough. We must remember that, in those days, Cosworth used to supply their best units to the top teams ( Lotus, Tyrrell and McLaren ) whereas the rest had to cope with " ordinary" engines.
#12
GIGLEUX
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:31
Two facts avoided the Shadow-Matra to developped correctly:
-dicussions with the financials of Shadow (UOP) were rather slow and the agreement was finalized only after the beginning of the 1975 season.
-the technical staff of Shadow, mainly Southgate, were not convinced of the interest of using a V12 Matra in place of the Cosworth so that the car prepared for that purpose was ready only in July and was 80 kg too heavy. Add that all the exhaust system was conceived by Shadow in spite of Matra's advice and generated a loss of power. After that they used Matra's one and immediatly gained 15 hp and 7 kg!
-dicussions with the financials of Shadow (UOP) were rather slow and the agreement was finalized only after the beginning of the 1975 season.
-the technical staff of Shadow, mainly Southgate, were not convinced of the interest of using a V12 Matra in place of the Cosworth so that the car prepared for that purpose was ready only in July and was 80 kg too heavy. Add that all the exhaust system was conceived by Shadow in spite of Matra's advice and generated a loss of power. After that they used Matra's one and immediatly gained 15 hp and 7 kg!
#13
philippe charuest
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 17:37
no it was a completely different project more like the 1974 312b3 done by bernard boyer and george martin , boyer mostly he was the main "chassis "guy of matra , ducarouge and beaujon were already gone to ligier , the deal between ligier and matra was sign late 74Originally posted by Michael Clark
Who designed that car Phillipe?
Was it Ducarouge? Did the Matra basically 'become' the Ligier JS5(?)?
#14
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 20:53
The horsepower advantage doesn't sound that much for the extra fuel they would have had to have carried around - no wonder Southgate wasn't convinced.
It seemed to me incredible that a team that was marginally funded and so nearly 'there', 'fiddled' in such a major way when their resources, redirected, could have had them winning GPs.
It seemed to me incredible that a team that was marginally funded and so nearly 'there', 'fiddled' in such a major way when their resources, redirected, could have had them winning GPs.
#15
philippe charuest
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Posted 23 January 2006 - 21:27
in 1975 ?? ferrari was the dominent car with the same slight extra weight of the engine and the higher fuel load . wich wasnt very much anyway both ferrari and matra did a lot progress in both area between 70 and 74. if there was a period were the V12 was a better package then the cosworth it was the period 74-79 (you have probably note that i dont mention BRM ;)Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
The horsepower advantage doesn't sound that much for the extra fuel they would have had to have carried around - no wonder Southgate wasn't convinced.
#16
Bondurand
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:30
Originally posted by philippe charuest
no it was a completely different project more like the 1974 312b3 done by bernard boyer and george martin , boyer mostly he was the main "chassis "guy of matra , ducarouge and beaujon were already gone to ligier , the deal between ligier and matra was sign late 74
I remember of a "secret" Matra project
, but that is the first time I read a description of it. 
Was there any design made? Something published that I missed?
I remember a long interview of Boyer in Sport Auto giving his advice on the 75 cars, but nothing about how he would have build his own project.
#17
GIGLEUX
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:53
Only a moke was made. The project was with long wheelbase, usual Matra front end, MS670 rear end, Hewland TL200 gearbox.
#18
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 10:15
At what point and for what reason did Shadow - or Matra - decide to finish the cooperation between them?
#19
GIGLEUX
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 10:22
The cooperation finished in october 1975 as:
-Shadow did't seem to be very cooperative.
-Matra had now a contract with Ligier.
-Shadow did't seem to be very cooperative.
-Matra had now a contract with Ligier.
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#20
f1steveuk
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 10:41
There was a guy at the Beaulieu autojumble about two or three years ago, who was selling some Shadow wind tunnel model bits and pieces. There was enough to just about make the Shadow Matra, but what a price!!! Still regret it though 
#21
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:21
thanks to all, an interesting bit of history- something that should by the above accounts have been better than it was -still-it looked and sounded fabulous, and seems to have been the catalyst for Matra to get involved again, which was all to the good. Shame that Jumper was n't able to capitalise on it more.
One other question. Beltoise was down for the Ligier drive almost from the word go, but got substituted by Lafiite at quite a late stage. What lead to this, and did Beltoise get compensated in any way?
One other question. Beltoise was down for the Ligier drive almost from the word go, but got substituted by Lafiite at quite a late stage. What lead to this, and did Beltoise get compensated in any way?
#22
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:27
From what I can recall, Laffite was simply faster than Beltoise during testing.
#23
GIGLEUX
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:46
Not so simple. In fact what hapenned to Beltoise was a shame and is not a glorious page of the Ligier's story.
Beltoise found the SEITA's budget for Ligier, 1975 for sports racing cars and further for F1. He had a non-writen promise he would be the F1 driver. When the car was ready, end of 1975, Beltoise made the first tests. Before that, Ligier who was convinced JPB was not the best driver and not wellfitted after one year without driving a F1 for his car, contacted Jarier, Laffite and Pescarolo. Jarier was under contract with Shadow, Pesca was not interested as he did'nt want to be unfair with Beltoise, so it remained only Laffite. He turned on the circuit the day after Beltoise with a car adjusted by JPB, with a new engine and better tyres and of course realized better times. And the writing was on the wall!
Beltoise found the SEITA's budget for Ligier, 1975 for sports racing cars and further for F1. He had a non-writen promise he would be the F1 driver. When the car was ready, end of 1975, Beltoise made the first tests. Before that, Ligier who was convinced JPB was not the best driver and not wellfitted after one year without driving a F1 for his car, contacted Jarier, Laffite and Pescarolo. Jarier was under contract with Shadow, Pesca was not interested as he did'nt want to be unfair with Beltoise, so it remained only Laffite. He turned on the circuit the day after Beltoise with a car adjusted by JPB, with a new engine and better tyres and of course realized better times. And the writing was on the wall!
#25
jph
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 15:23
Is it my imagination, or do I recall seeing the Shadow Matra in the Donington Collection?
#26
f1steveuk
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 15:30
I'm pretty certain it appeared in one of the museum "contents" booklets, about 1984 ish
#27
Bill Wagenblatt
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 16:18
A couple of photos of the Shadow DN7A/1A Matra taken at the 1975 US GP, Watkins Glen, NY
Bill
Bill
#28
Michael Oliver
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 17:38
Originally posted by jph
Is it my imagination, or do I recall seeing the Shadow Matra in the Donington Collection?
It was certainly there the last time I paid it a visit, although that was several years ago...
#29
philippe charuest
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 17:39
theres another articles where he was giving the general line with the "Maquette " shown upthere , it was already clear that it would be a relatively narrow frame but without fuel cell between the engine and the driver cause of the lenght of the engine , it was already decide to use lontiduginal radiator like the 74 b3 . wide track ,narrow nose with mustach . front suspension by upper rocker , they were still fiddling with the idea to use or not inboard brake in the front , and for the rear to use basically the same train then on the sportscar, and yes it was still only a project ,but some were saying that the design was well advance and that they were just waiting for the ok of the managementOriginally posted by Bondurand
I remember of a "secret" Matra project
Was there any design made? Something published that I missed?
I remember a long interview of Boyer in Sport Auto giving his advice on the 75 cars, but nothing about how he would have build his own project.
#30
Twin Window
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 19:28
I'm pretty sure I also saw those bits on eBay. I'm not entirely sure whether it would have been before or after your autojumble, though.Originally posted by f1steveuk
There was a guy at the Beaulieu autojumble about two or three years ago, who was selling some Shadow wind tunnel model bits and pieces.
#31
f1steveuk
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 19:52
Originally posted by Twin Window
I'm pretty sure I also saw those bits on eBay. I'm not entirely sure whether it would have been before or after your autojumble, though.
Very badly hand painted, with a poor go at Jumper's helmet colours??
#32
No brain no pain
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 22:36
Originally posted by WGD706
What I found was that in 1975 the Matra V12 engines were supplied to Shadow for the Tony Southgate designed Shadow-Matra DN7 and raced by Jean-Pierre Jarier without success in Austria and Italy despite the fact that the Matra V12 produced 30bhp more than the DFV but the team could not afford to fund the development program and gave up the idea.
Hi
A pic of the Shadow-Matra may perhaps suit then ;)
