I always think of Colin Chapman, A J Foyt and Nigel Mansell as being ahead of the pack as far as egos are concerned. I suppose I'm really talking the 'insufferable' type who tells you about it rather than simply the HUGE amount of self belief that is required to belt through Eau Rouge flat or go fast at the Brickyard.
I then think of Waltrip and our very own Robbie Francevic. Guys that were good but wanted to let everyone know.
I heard recently that George Follmer falls into this category - big time. I can't comment.
I recently read somewhere that Frank Gardner had been given the job of showing Foyt around Le Mans in '67 and that the Texan let Gardner know what an honour it would be for him...
The big ego thread
Started by
Vicuna
, Jan 24 2006 19:44
169 replies to this topic
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#2
swintex
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 20:03
I'd like to know Gardner's response to that.
Richard
Richard
#3
philippe charuest
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 20:14
theres Senna too ,but it wasnt the ego its because he was "the chosen"
#4
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 22:23
The NZ team's A1GP driver falls squarely into that category, one of those drivers you wish you could wrap in a plastic bag every time the helmet comes off - its not even as if he has lived up to his own reputation recently either.
Sam Posey was another. I don't feel Senna falls into that category really. Sure he was arrogant on the track and with certain drivers, and one wonders about the chosen one thing, but he wasn't one to make sure he had an audience to tell em how hard it was out there, and what a superstar he was to overcome all that drama - in that respect Senna was eloquent and interesting to listen to.
In this Masters GP thing I think Mansell behaved himself as far as I can tell (unless anyone knows different) he must have matured, he just let his driving do the talking. Wish he had done that when he was in F1.
Sam Posey was another. I don't feel Senna falls into that category really. Sure he was arrogant on the track and with certain drivers, and one wonders about the chosen one thing, but he wasn't one to make sure he had an audience to tell em how hard it was out there, and what a superstar he was to overcome all that drama - in that respect Senna was eloquent and interesting to listen to.
In this Masters GP thing I think Mansell behaved himself as far as I can tell (unless anyone knows different) he must have matured, he just let his driving do the talking. Wish he had done that when he was in F1.
#5
philippe charuest
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 22:59
youre maybe right about Sam Posey , but he is a sophisticaded guy not the "steak and potato " type so sometime in some millieu it create bad reaction, but there was another also run who had a very high opinion of himself ,a real jerk Eddy Cheever
#6
HistoricMustang
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 23:21
Would Ken Miles fall into this catagory...............or perhaps is it just a British thing? 
Henry
Henry
#7
Frank Verplanken
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 23:22
I never met him but always liked him as a driver. By the way, the name's Eddie, not EddyOriginally posted by philippe charuest
but there was another also run who had a very high opinion of himself ,a real jerk Eddy Cheever
. And not exactly an also ran IMHO, one of America's best international drivers of the XXth century to me.The ego issue is hard to sort out anyway... Take Danny Ongais for instance. Arguably one of the less fan-friendly drivers to ever steer a racing car, many a disgusted fan probably thought he was full of himself and so on. The fact that Ongais did not like all the asides of racing (fans, press, etc.) does not mean he thought every other drivers were "aslo rans". Every driver has to think he is faster than the others in the first place, otherwise he would not start racing at all, no ? They all have large egos, they just more or less show it. Jacky Ickx showed it a lot, Jimmy Clark did not. But maybe I'm mixing up arrogance and ego ?
#8
David M. Kane
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Posted 24 January 2006 - 23:37
I can confirm Eddie Cheever...the biggest...for reasons unknown I would add Derek Daly...
#9
FLB
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 07:02
I wasn't worried about Emerson Fittipaldi's physical condition before the Kyalami GP Masters race. He was going to do everything to be competitive. His ego would never let what happened to his reputation from 1976 to 1980 happen again...
From my personal experience, Luca Badoer. There was an open day before the 1993 Canadian Grand Prix in 1993. He didn't even look at us, nor his mechanics, before he went out in the pitlane on a moped. He came close to running over us. The person riding with him whispered something in his ear, which I assume went along the lines of 'Sign the damn programmes!' He did, but it obviously wasn't his first choice.
Michele Alboreto said during that season that Badoer had better 'adjust his attitude' or his F1 career wasn't going to be successful. He was right on both counts.
From my personal experience, Luca Badoer. There was an open day before the 1993 Canadian Grand Prix in 1993. He didn't even look at us, nor his mechanics, before he went out in the pitlane on a moped. He came close to running over us. The person riding with him whispered something in his ear, which I assume went along the lines of 'Sign the damn programmes!' He did, but it obviously wasn't his first choice.
Michele Alboreto said during that season that Badoer had better 'adjust his attitude' or his F1 career wasn't going to be successful. He was right on both counts.
#10
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 07:14
Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
In this Masters GP thing I think Mansell behaved himself as far as I can tell (unless anyone knows different) he must have matured, he just let his driving do the talking. Wish he had done that when he was in F1.
He sure didnt in the DTM masters...
#11
Roger Clark
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 07:21
Caracciola had a little Ego. (credit to Tony Kaye)
http://forums.autosp...acciola AND ego
I know of only one race meeting at the Berlin stadium, but there could easily have been more. It took place on 28/29 April 1923. Among the winners was Rudolf Caracciola with his little Ego. Most modern drivers have big ones.
http://forums.autosp...acciola AND ego
#12
Hieronymus
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 07:30
"One" Pablo Montoya...or is that also arrogance??
and
"Apollo" Bonnier...
and
"Apollo" Bonnier...
#13
ensign14
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 08:01
The Waltrip example suggests that this thread might not be all it means, if you catch my drift. I always got the impression of DW that he cottoned on to NASCAR being a sort of professional wrestling thing, where the crowd likes to cheer their favourites, and decided he'd be the Bad Guy and get notoriety. Of course it helped that he could walk the walk, unlike the other similar figure of Salt Walther. (For those who remember the grand old days of ITV the former reminded me somewhat of Brian Maxine, effortlessly good and let everyone know it, and the latter of Rollerball Rocco, flash and brash. Except Rocco was mega.) But Waltrip may have been playing a part.Originally posted by Vicuna
I then think of Waltrip and our very own Robbie Francevic. Guys that were good but wanted to let everyone know.
Ego is a weird business. Who was genuinely big-headed? Who was putting forward a front? Who was just quiet and private? Who considered they were the best but didn't let anyone know? Who in motor racing has NOT got a ginormous ego?
#14
Frank S
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 08:11
I'd reckon the big ego is a given at the level I reckon we are talking about. And isn't what we are talking about more on the order of management of that ego?Originally posted by ensign14
Ego is a weird business. Who was genuinely big-headed? Who was putting forward a front? Who was just quiet and private? Who considered they were the best but didn't let anyone know? Who in motor racing has NOT got a ginormous ego?
You'd have to grant Dan Gurney a top place on both Big and Well-Managed lists, would you not?
What would be the common signs indicating possession of Big Ego, as opposed to evidence of mismangaged Any-Size Ego?
Or is it a matter of managing versus being managed by...?
#15
TecnoRacing
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 08:48
Sam Posey was another
I dont get that impression from reading his book...
I would say he had a certain affectation and was prone to waxing lyrical - and he most likely got alot of flack for being a 'rich kid' which proabaly resulted in him having a 'chip on his shoulder' at times (perhaps rightfully.) His 'spats' with David Hobbs in f5000 were very much aimed at ramping up the media. I always liked him personally...
#16
JacnGille
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:09
Bobby Unser would be one of my top choices.
#17
BRG
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:25
I think it may be easier to try to identify the top racers who AREN'T/WEREN'T major egomaniacs. I suspect it may be the rule rather than the exception.
A friend of mine who met him said that he found Tiff Needell (although hardly qualifying as a motor racing great) was, shall we say, a little full of himself.
A friend of mine who met him said that he found Tiff Needell (although hardly qualifying as a motor racing great) was, shall we say, a little full of himself.
#18
David M. Kane
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:35
When I ran into Sam Posey at the Indy Airport the 1st year of the USGP here, he couldn't have been more charming. Sometimes, it's a mood thing, i.e. you didn't want to catch Denny Hulme on a bad day.
#19
MCS
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:36
Originally posted by BRG
A friend of mine who met him said that he found Tiff Needell (although hardly qualifying as a motor racing great) was, shall we say, a little full of himself.
Yes, very well put.
I certainly agree as far as Derek Daly is concerned as well
I'm a little hesitant to suggest Graham Hill. His, er, performance on the Avon Tour of Britain in '73 was interesting to say the least. But perhaps, he could be forgiven on the basis that he was at the wheel of a Datsun...?
We should nominate the more "down to earth" drivers as well !!!
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#20
Paolo
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:54
Riccardo Patrese was judged difficult to deal with in his youngster days.
I remember the respected Italian journalist Enzo Biagi writing he was "supponente", something like "unpleasantly overconfident".- On the other side, Biagi quite liked the guy.
Patrese, who is now universally considered a pleasant person to deal with, says it was due to his initial lack of self confidence.
I remember the respected Italian journalist Enzo Biagi writing he was "supponente", something like "unpleasantly overconfident".- On the other side, Biagi quite liked the guy.
Patrese, who is now universally considered a pleasant person to deal with, says it was due to his initial lack of self confidence.
#21
petefenelon
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 15:55
I've very rarely met a top sports car driver who was 'up himself'. They generally seem to be real team players, and have a lot of time for the spectators.
The most arrogant and obnoxious drivers tend to be the real nobodies: either people who just want to be seen around the paddock looking important in overalls -- a lot of the back end of the British GT grid! -- or the "Formula Pushy Dad" kids who are obviously all going to be the next World Champion. (Their dads are often worse, and in some cases even tend to be the guys at the back of the GT grid).
The most arrogant and obnoxious drivers tend to be the real nobodies: either people who just want to be seen around the paddock looking important in overalls -- a lot of the back end of the British GT grid! -- or the "Formula Pushy Dad" kids who are obviously all going to be the next World Champion. (Their dads are often worse, and in some cases even tend to be the guys at the back of the GT grid).
#22
kayemod
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 16:03
Originally posted by Vicuna
I always think of Colin Chapman, A J Foyt and Nigel Mansell as being ahead of the pack as far as egos are concerned. I recently read somewhere that Frank Gardner had been given the job of showing Foyt around Le Mans in '67 and that the Texan let Gardner know what an honour it would be for him...
Having met all three of the above, I must stick up for Colin Chapman, a slightly larger than average sized ego possibly, but no more than that. He often couldn't put a name to Lotus employees he'd been in regular contact with for years, but I don't put that down to ego, if you didn't impress ACBC, you just didn't register with him, it's as simple as that. Mansell's ego related problems are legendary, but though I only met him two or three times, I put it all down to working class insecurity, certainly he doesn't interview well or do good TV. A J Foyt on the other hand is an absolute classic. I only ever met him once, introduced by Peter Warr, but I have a word-perfect memory of his response to this day, "Hey there, real glad to have you meet me." Like I said, a classic.
#23
Keir
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 16:06
In my experience, Eddie Cheever was both humble and a gentleman. He knows his stuff and there is nothing wrong in that. But show me a race driver without an ego and I'll show you a spectator.
Sam Posey ?? I could go on and on ! He is one of a kind and very much the "silver spoon" type of guy, but again, get to know him and he is quite fun to be with !!
Sam Posey ?? I could go on and on ! He is one of a kind and very much the "silver spoon" type of guy, but again, get to know him and he is quite fun to be with !!
#24
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 16:15
Originally posted by Keir
But show me a race driver without an ego...
Gil de Ferran.
And he won the Indy500. And two CART championships when it was a proper series. And is officially the fastest racing driver (im not including drag racers) in the world.
#25
ian senior
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 16:18
Originally posted by Keir
In my experience, Eddie Cheever was both humble and a gentleman. He knows his stuff and there is nothing wrong in that. But show me a race driver without an ego and I'll show you a spectator
That seems to accord with what I thought of Cheever. He acquired (or was given) a reputation as a real smartarse when he first sprung to prominence. Later on, he seemed to have a nice sense of humour and wasn't afraid of taking the you know what out of himself. Perhaps some people just mellow with age.
#26
petefenelon
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:00
Originally posted by kayemod
"Hey there, real glad to have you meet me." Like I said, a classic.
That is beyond parody - fantastic. Love it.
The only really successful national-level British driver who I've ever felt was on a huge ego trip was John Cleland -- I didn't dislike the guy, in fact I found him very entertaining, but I thought his proclamations were often somewhat unfounded and frequently waaaaaaay over the top. But I guess he realised that column inches = £ so it was worth being outrageous occasionally.
#27
petefenelon
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:02
Louis Stanley? ;P
#28
petefenelon
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:10
Originally posted by kayemod
Having met all three of the above, I must stick up for Colin Chapman, a slightly larger than average sized ego possibly, but no more than that. He often couldn't put a name to Lotus employees he'd been in regular contact with for years, but I don't put that down to ego, if you didn't impress ACBC, you just didn't register with him, it's as simple as that.
The more one hears about Chapman and his unique ways of thinking the more one wonders if these days he wouldn't've been diagnosed as 'being on the autistic spectrum". Autodidact, low empathy, vast interest in technical detail, although his 'flexible' attitude to truth might mitigate against this...;)
Although it is syndrome du jour at the moment it's interesting to think which of the people on the technical side of the sport might've been pigeonholed as having Asperger's by modern criteria. It's certainly no barrier to success in engineering...
#29
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:13
Originally posted by kayemod
"Hey there, real glad to have you meet me." Like I said, a classic.
Hmmm, ego or Foyt's well known creative grammar?
"Im so wonderful" in victory lane when Kenny Brack won the Indy500 is better, imo.
#30
RS2000
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:29
Darell Waltrip, being shy, retiring, understated...
#31
2F-001
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 17:40
Pete-
Whose credentials are you casting Asperger's upon?
Whose credentials are you casting Asperger's upon?
#32
Vicuna
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 19:12
Originally posted by kayemod
Having met all three of the above, I must stick up for Colin Chapman, a slightly larger than average sized ego possibly, but no more than that. He often couldn't put a name to Lotus employees he'd been in regular contact with for years, but I don't put that down to ego, if you didn't impress ACBC, you just didn't register with him, it's as simple as that. Mansell's ego related problems are legendary, but though I only met him two or three times, I put it all down to working class insecurity, certainly he doesn't interview well or do good TV. A J Foyt on the other hand is an absolute classic. I only ever met him once, introduced by Peter Warr, but I have a word-perfect memory of his response to this day, "Hey there, real glad to have you meet me." Like I said, a classic.
I've only met Mansell of the first 3 I mentioned.
The inclusion of ACBC on that list is merely as a result of what I've picked up.
Interesting comments kayemod
#33
Macca
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 19:31
A.J. Foyt is alleged to have said, after winning a NASCAR race: "That's fixed those hillbillies, now for those European *******!"
Paul M
Paul M
#34
David Beard
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 19:48
Originally posted by petefenelon
Although it is syndrome du jour at the moment it's interesting to think which of the people on the technical side of the sport might've been pigeonholed as having Asperger's by modern criteria. It's certainly no barrier to success in engineering...
From what I understand of Asperger's, Chapman certainly couldn't have been put in that box. Not what you meant, Pete, surely?
#35
philippe charuest
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 20:03
and what is the name of the syndrome for people who thinq that they are above the law, psychopath ,megalomaniac ;)
#36
Frank Verplanken
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 22:06
The Berlusconi syndrome ?Originally posted by philippe charuest
and what is the name of the syndrome for people who thinq that they are above the law, psychopath ,megalomaniac ;)
#37
Ray Bell
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Posted 25 January 2006 - 22:25
Rusty French top of the list... but I have to say that Jack Saywell had to rate highly too...
You don't do those things without a huge ego, surely?
You don't do those things without a huge ego, surely?
#38
Vicuna
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 00:09
What about Moffatt Ray?
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#40
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 09:03
Originally posted by Vicuna
What about Moffat Ray?
My mate Al? Not in the same league as Saywell, I wouldn't think. And a very changed man in latter years.
#41
Vicuna
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 10:14
Tell us more about Saywell
#42
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 11:15
I met Allan Moffat and had a really excellent conversation with him, in some technical depth and about his own 'contribution' to the sport. In both cases I found him self deprecating and very intelligent.
I think Frank S has it right. Its about ego management not whether the drivers have them or not. You need an ego to be competitive and have the will to win, otherwise you are merely fast.
It may be considered arrogant by us lesser mortals for someone to spell out the facts as they see them, ie "I am faster than those other guys". Its when the whole thing gets embroidered beyond politeness and once the individual realises he has an audience does his own corny PR job on innocent victims. They do themselves no favours, and indeed make themselves look ridiculous in the eyes of their more intelligent rivals and those sports fans who are even slightly above pond life.
What was the Graham Hill Avon Motor Tour incident?
I think Frank S has it right. Its about ego management not whether the drivers have them or not. You need an ego to be competitive and have the will to win, otherwise you are merely fast.
It may be considered arrogant by us lesser mortals for someone to spell out the facts as they see them, ie "I am faster than those other guys". Its when the whole thing gets embroidered beyond politeness and once the individual realises he has an audience does his own corny PR job on innocent victims. They do themselves no favours, and indeed make themselves look ridiculous in the eyes of their more intelligent rivals and those sports fans who are even slightly above pond life.
What was the Graham Hill Avon Motor Tour incident?
#43
MonzaDriver
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 11:26
Originally posted by petefenelon
The most arrogant and obnoxious drivers tend to be the real nobodies: either people who just want to be seen around the paddock looking important in overalls -- a lot of the back end of the British GT grid! -- or the "Formula Pushy Dad" kids who are obviously all going to be the next World Champion. (Their dads are often worse, and in some cases even tend to be the guys at the back of the GT grid).
You really explain perfectly the environment of motor racing in Italy from half of the 80's onward.
It is also the same in England? In some way a delusion for myself.
This kind of drivers, and the number is constantly growing-up, they dont think about the race, about the set-up of the car, they play about to be a driver, they dont do the driver.
If they weren't play, they would have understood that motor racing is no more a sport.
And that what they do now, is not racing, but to be slaves of the next software version,
or the next kind of aereodinamic application. Or next constructor's caprice.
If they weren't play they would have understood what we say everyday in this forum,
from a long time ago.
This kind of attitude is another major reason, why motor racing is so poor today.
Is a reason why, the team managers ask so much money for a season of races, at every level of motor racing.
If you are a team manager and your " client" doesn't understood what you are selling to him.................there is a better way to ask for an incredible amount of money? No.
If you add to all that, the fact that money for racing, are something not clear from a fiscal
point of view..............What a recipe.
MonzaDriver.
#44
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 12:13
Originally posted by Vicuna
Tell us more about Saywell
Can't say that I know the full facts, really...
But he thought so much of his racing that he, along with Snow, I'm pretty sure, started a business that revolved around preparing their cars. They employed some of the top men of their time in Australia to run it, and when he bought the Tipo B he brought its mechanic from the Dart to look after it.
But it's prior to this that I had in mind. His inheritence of the family fortune came when his parents were killed in a headline-creating axe murder. The word is that he was the one responsible.
#45
kayemod
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 12:44
Originally posted by Ray Bell
But it's prior to this that I had in mind. His inheritence of the family fortune came when his parents were killed in a headline-creating axe murder. The word is that he was the one responsible.
I don't know enough about racing in your Country to have ever heard of the guy, is he no longer with us? Don't know how the law works in Australia, but I can't help thinking that you should have included the word 'allegedly' somewhere in those last few lines.
#46
Collombin
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 13:14
Originally posted by kayemod
I don't know enough about racing in your Country to have ever heard of the guy, is he no longer with us? Don't know how the law works in Australia, but I can't help thinking that you should have included the word 'allegedly' somewhere in those last few lines.
"Let me see if I understand - you can say anything you like as long as you put the word "allegedly" in front of it" - Paul Merton
Didn't Jim Clark once ask why other drivers simply didn't drive as quickly as he did?
Coming from Clark, it is presumably a genuinely bemused inquiry, but if certain other drivers had said that, it may have been interpreted in a less charitable way.
#47
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 13:48
Originally posted by kayemod
I don't know enough about racing in your Country to have ever heard of the guy, is he no longer with us? Don't know how the law works in Australia, but I can't help thinking that you should have included the word 'allegedly' somewhere in those last few lines.
That's where the phrase, 'the word is...' comes into it...
And I guess the man is long since off the scene. The murders took place in the early thirties, he raced until the early fifties.
Another side to his ego, and you have to look closely to see the connection, was when the Alfa's engine had a rebuild.
The pommie mechanic he'd paid to import did the job, and when they went to start the engine it wasn't a goer. Saywell, I gather, ignored his own local guy, Rex Marshall, and insisted that the pom had it right and that the engine would fire. Towed around the block behind one of their road cars, the poor Alfa resisted every attempt.
Further inspection revealed a lot of bent valves. An immigrant was despatched back to the place from whence he'd come and the engine was crated and shipped to Italy for rebuilding.
About July or August, 1939...
#48
Hieronymus
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 13:53
Earlier comment from me on Jo Bonnier refers.
What do you think about Jo??
I was told that Bandini called him Apollo...due to his rather snobbish attitude. Like a god amongst mere mortals...
What do you think about Jo??
I was told that Bandini called him Apollo...due to his rather snobbish attitude. Like a god amongst mere mortals...
#49
Henri Greuter
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 14:03
I'm affraid I'm repeating myself but the biggest example of ego I've seen in racing by a driver is when Senna had a disagreement with the officials on location and in general power and decided that he was larger than the sport thus had the right to settle the argument on the track, no matter who it involved otherwise, no matter how serious the consequenses may have been.
Henri
Henri
#50
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 14:06
I guess Ulf Norinder would have been displaying a fairly immense ego when he tried to get the better of Gloria Campbell...
