In a sport well known for its lack of sentimentality it ihas been rather nice to see the otherwise hideous McLaren MP4-21 pounding around the Spanish countryside in a proper McLaren orange.
What about the "MP4" designation though? "M" as in Marlboro - a long-lost sponsor and "P4" as in a long-lost F2 team. So come on Ron, let's update the image somewhat, how about the Johnnie Walker Special. The colour scheme could also pay homage to the Walker racing heritage with a fetching dark blue and a white nose band....
Those with a longer memory may recall a previous JW car, but to be fair that was 40 years ago and spelt "Johnny".
What's in a name?
Started by
bill moffat
, Jan 27 2006 13:54
48 replies to this topic
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#2
Wolf
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 14:16
Sorry, Bill- I do not see how Ron Denis' way of leading McLaren does any credit to Bruce McLaren's name, so why involve poor Rob Walker (or, what has he done to you to suggest that 
)? In all honesty, Denis is perfect man for modern F1*, but IMHO cut-throat mentality and bland corporate Ron-speak & drone mentality is something that should not be associated with ppl like I was given to understand Bruce McL and Rob Walker were...
* but his team seems to have lost the plot completely nowdays, it seems- DSJ's quote about winning 'Team shambles' award springs to mind...
)? In all honesty, Denis is perfect man for modern F1*, but IMHO cut-throat mentality and bland corporate Ron-speak & drone mentality is something that should not be associated with ppl like I was given to understand Bruce McL and Rob Walker were...* but his team seems to have lost the plot completely nowdays, it seems- DSJ's quote about winning 'Team shambles' award springs to mind...
#3
Stephen W
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 14:20
Originally posted by bill moffat
So come on Ron, let's update the image somewhat, how about the Johnnie Walker Special.
Whisky sponsorship? As soon as Labour get a whiff of that they will drop on F1 like a ton of pricks!
It can't be 'politically correct' to have alcohol associated with driving can it?;)
#4
D-Type
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 14:27
Ner! A case apiece should do it. It would be cheaper than £1 000 000 to party funds anyway
#5
bill moffat
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 14:29
Originally posted by Stephen W
Whisky sponsorship? As soon as Labour get a whiff of that they will drop on F1 like a ton of pricks!
It can't be 'politically correct' to have alcohol associated with driving can it?;)
..although a lot of MP's (as opposed to MP4's) are themselves fuelled by whisky.
Incidentally the other option I pondered was for the MP4-21 to become a "Siemens special" but given the media problems surrounding the Durex Surtees it seemed to be tempting fate..;)
#6
ian senior
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 14:30
Originally posted by Stephen W
Whisky sponsorship? As soon as Labour get a whiff of that they will drop on F1 like a ton of pricks!
It can't be 'politically correct' to have alcohol associated with driving can it?;)
Don't you believe it. The Scotch Whisky industry has an extremely effective lobbying force - why do you think the Chancellor rarely introduces increases in duty on whisky? If you ever thought farmers influenced government policy, they are minnows compared to the Scotch boys.
#7
ensign14
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 15:08
The only time alcohol is allowed in the House of Commons is for the Chancellor when giving the budget speech. (Although I heard Gordon Taxingpensioners is teetotal.)Originally posted by ian senior
Don't you believe it. The Scotch Whisky industry has an extremely effective lobbying force - why do you think the Chancellor rarely introduces increases in duty on whisky?
#8
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 15:17
Originally posted by bill moffat
What about the "MP4" designation though? "M" as in Marlboro - a long-lost sponsor and "P4" as in a long-lost F2 team.
What did M stand for when they werent sponsored by Marlboro?
#9
ian senior
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 15:25
Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
What did M stand for when they werent sponsored by Marlboro?
I always thought the M was for "McLaren".
#10
David Beard
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 15:56
When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about a little 250cc racing car...
#11
bill moffat
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 15:59
Originally posted by David Beard
When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about a little 250cc racing car...
Ah yes, but that was Johnny Walker !
#12
Stephen W
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 16:01
Originally posted by David Beard
When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about a little 250cc racing car...
So did I! Funny how wrong you can be!
#13
Graham Gauld
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 16:11
Reference the Scots Whisky Association they have recommended that distilleries do not get involved in motoring sponsorship as a matter of course and nothing to do with political parties of any colour. However, a number of companies have been involved in minor sponsorship in Scotland. The longest serving one was Dambuie who sponsored Ian Forrests cars for over ten years. Tim Morrison, a friend of Jackie Stewarts, had stickers for, I think, the Morrison family's Highland Malt distillery Glengarrioch, and Old Court put up some sponsorship for David Duffield in Formula Ford. Johnny Walker, however, always used to have a presence at Le Mans with a top hatted, red coated fellow wandering around the grid before the start. So as I say, it is not unknown, but uncommon.
#14
Paul Butler
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 16:28
Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
What did M stand for when they werent sponsored by Marlboro?
I know that Marlboro were instrumental in getting McLaren and Project Four together but as far as I'm aware the "M" has always been for McLaren.
#15
D-Type
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 16:58
We had a thread about MP4 before.
I think the conclusion was the M was for McLaren but was hi-jacked by Marlboro and then when West came along it metamorphosed back into McLaren.
A bit like AAR being either All American Racing or Anglo-American Racing depending on who you were talking to.
I think the conclusion was the M was for McLaren but was hi-jacked by Marlboro and then when West came along it metamorphosed back into McLaren.
A bit like AAR being either All American Racing or Anglo-American Racing depending on who you were talking to.
#16
bill moffat
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 16:59
Originally posted by Paul Butler
I know that Marlboro were instrumental in getting Mclaren and Project Four together but as far as I'm aware the "M" has always been for McLaren.
Well I'm sticking with the Marlboro story. Either way "MP" did not stand for Maurice Philippe as I once read elsewhere. Maurice was rather busy designing Tyrrells at the time...
#17
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 17:02
They were never MPs though were they? They went from being M to MP4?
#18
Wolf
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 17:03
Originally posted by D-Type
We had a thread about MP4 before.
I think the conclusion was the M was for McLaren but was hi-jacked by Marlboro and then when West came along it metamorphosed back into McLaren.
A bit like AAR being either All American Racing or Anglo-American Racing depending on who you were talking to.
I was under the impression there was actual difference between the two- Anglo-American Racing being used for F1 team, and All-American Racing for activities in USA. OTOH, it may very well be that I'll have to adopt Your signature...
#19
Twin Window
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 17:16
The original 1981 McLaren was officially known as the Marlboro MP4 - with no mention of the word McLaren.
However, as far as I'm aware, Paul is correct in that it stood (and stands, I presume) for McLaren Project 4.
However, as far as I'm aware, Paul is correct in that it stood (and stands, I presume) for McLaren Project 4.
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#20
philippe charuest
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 19:11
what id like to know more is when (± 1978) the ron dennis f2-f3 team was rename project four and why .whats the meaning of P-4
#21
Vicuna
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 20:33
Didn't the M in a McLaren M10A stand for 'Mark'
#22
philippe charuest
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 20:47
that would be interesting . i dont know much about those "formula 4" like the costin walker .there wasnt much mention of them in the french book and mag thenOriginally posted by David Beard
When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about a little 250cc racing car...
#23
RTH
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 09:01
I seem to remember the variant of alcoholic spirit they intended to promote was "Black Label "
#24
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 10:59
I have always known MP4 as Marlboro Project 4, David Hodges has it also that way.
Don't know what it stands for today, I can't be McLaren, it would then be a McLaren McLaren Project 4...it sounds a bit silly...
Don't know what it stands for today, I can't be McLaren, it would then be a McLaren McLaren Project 4...it sounds a bit silly...
#25
Mallory Dan
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 11:28
Originally posted by philippe charuest
what id like to know more is when (± 1978) the ron dennis f2-f3 team was rename project four and why .whats the meaning of P-4
1976 or 77 I think. Definitely P4 by 1978.
On the 'Anglo American Racing' matter, didn't Tony Dean enter himself under this name, and why was that??
#26
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 11:48
In that case, Rainer, the first car would have been the Marlboro Marlboro Project 4...Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Don't know what it stands for today, I can't be McLaren, it would then be a McLaren McLaren Project 4...it sounds a bit silly...
Here's my invitation from the launch;
PS I'll rename this thread to reflect the content better (when I've thought of something appropriate...)
#27
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 11:56
Twinny, that look pretty "official" to me 
It must have been that the perodicals ignored the Marlboro "tag" and called it a McLaren despite its official name? Just as JPS'es became Lotus'es in certain magazines, despite their "official" names. Even well-known authors have got it wrong...
It must have been that the perodicals ignored the Marlboro "tag" and called it a McLaren despite its official name? Just as JPS'es became Lotus'es in certain magazines, despite their "official" names. Even well-known authors have got it wrong...
#28
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:10
As far as I'm aware, the Lotuses from the 1972 spec 72 to the 1977 type 78 were officially called John Player Special Mark I, II and III... It could have continued with the 79, but I'm not sure. Lotus were officially mentioned only in the team & entrant moniker John Player Team Lotus.
Another example was in 1974 when the McLaren team was officially known as Marlboro Team Texaco. F1 sponsors taking the lead from the US where you'd already had a situation for many years whereby cars were known as the Sugaripe Prune Special and hundreds of other such commercially-derived names.
Another example was in 1974 when the McLaren team was officially known as Marlboro Team Texaco. F1 sponsors taking the lead from the US where you'd already had a situation for many years whereby cars were known as the Sugaripe Prune Special and hundreds of other such commercially-derived names.
#29
St.Hubbins
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:13
Just browsing some McLaren results I notice that in Long Beach 1979 they ran without Marlboro but with Löwenbräu as the title sponsor. What was the reason for this, legal or simply commercial?
#30
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:20
Löwenbräu is/was another Phillip Morris brand; McLaren had already run with the same livery for Montreal and Watkins Glen 1978...
Marlboro were still on the cars, albeit just on the rear wing endplates and a couple of other small logos. No different really to when Lotus ran Gunnar Nilsson's car in red & maroon Imperial livery for the 1977 Japanese GP...
...or when Rosberg's McLaren was in dayglo yellow & white for the 1986 Portuguese GP in deference to Marlboro Lights.
(pics from FORIX)
Marlboro were still on the cars, albeit just on the rear wing endplates and a couple of other small logos. No different really to when Lotus ran Gunnar Nilsson's car in red & maroon Imperial livery for the 1977 Japanese GP...
...or when Rosberg's McLaren was in dayglo yellow & white for the 1986 Portuguese GP in deference to Marlboro Lights.
(pics from FORIX)
#31
giacomo
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:39
Why not?Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Don't know what it stands for today, I can't be McLaren, it would then be a McLaren McLaren Project 4...it sounds a bit silly...
A Williams Frank Williams 07C does not sound much better. Or a Brabham Brabham Tauranac 49C...
#32
2F-001
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:39
Regarding "why Project 4", I understand it was simply the fourth incarnation of a team under Dennis's leadership. I assume that the Motul-Rondel outfit was effectively "Project 3" (or 2 ?) but I don't recall the earlier set-ups actually being referred to in that way.
Once the Marboro-backed McLaren-Dennis tie-in had become de facto Dennis's show, I sometime wonder if it might have become "Project 5" rather than anything "McLaren". I suppose it's a measure of the respect and cache accorded to Bruce's legacy that it didn't.
Once the Marboro-backed McLaren-Dennis tie-in had become de facto Dennis's show, I sometime wonder if it might have become "Project 5" rather than anything "McLaren". I suppose it's a measure of the respect and cache accorded to Bruce's legacy that it didn't.
#33
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:42
They became McLaren International when the two companies merged.
The F2 Motul Rondel team was, I susppect, aka Project 2 because in 1975 Marches were run in F2 for Brambilla, Depailler and others under the Project 3 banner. In 1976 Project 4 appeared, again running Marches prior to switching to Ralts in 1977.
The F2 Motul Rondel team was, I susppect, aka Project 2 because in 1975 Marches were run in F2 for Brambilla, Depailler and others under the Project 3 banner. In 1976 Project 4 appeared, again running Marches prior to switching to Ralts in 1977.
#34
Paul Butler
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 13:29
Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Twinny, that look pretty "official" to me
It must have been that the perodicals ignored the Marlboro "tag" and called it a McLaren despite its official name? Just as JPS'es became Lotus'es in certain magazines, despite their "official" names. Even well-known authors have got it wrong...
Rainer as I understand it the MP4 designation refers to the car itself so in 1981 the MP4/1 came into being (even though they used the M29/F in that year as well until Argentina).
When Ron Dennis came on board he brought in John Barnard (ousting Gordon Coppuck) to take over the design of the new car using a car that he had been developing for himself.
The MP4 (as I have always understood it) stands for McLaren Project 4 as the 1981 car was an amalgam of the previous McLaren car and JB's new design using the carbon fibre/kevlar mix.
I have , of course , also seen the designation shown as Marlboro Project 4 and I'd guess that the only people who could answer this question would be those who were involved in the merger of the two companies.
Personally it will always be McLaren Project 4 to me!
#35
bill moffat
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 16:25
OK that's enough about MP4's, but what was an MPS (and does it still exist?).
#36
Barry Boor
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 16:36
From the first post in the thread....
No thank you. There is enough dark blue around in F.1 nowadays.
Now, if they ran them in papyrus.....
The colour scheme could also pay homage to the Walker racing heritage with a fetching dark blue and a white nose band....
No thank you. There is enough dark blue around in F.1 nowadays.
Now, if they ran them in papyrus.....
#37
Macca
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:16
Exactly what shade of British Racing Papyrus would that be, BB? Please produce a vintage colour photo and a RAL number...............
;)
Paul M
;)
Paul M
#38
Barry Boor
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:21
Don't know about any RAL number....
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#40
2F-001
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:33
But as you know, Barry, those colour references are not worth the papyrus they're written on.Originally posted by Barry Boor
Now, if they ran them in papyrus.....
#41
Barry Boor
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:38
Yes, Tony, I know where you are tutan-khamen from....
#42
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:46
Does this show the papyrus a little better?
#43
Paul Butler
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 17:49
Originally posted by bill moffat
OK that's enough about MP4's, but what was an MPS (and does it still exist?).
Are you talking about the Maurice Philippe Special built by Maurice Philippe in 1955 ? Be interesting to know if it's still around!
#44
giacomo
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 19:13
Following Pierre Menard:Originally posted by 2F-001
Regarding "why Project 4", I understand it was simply the fourth incarnation of a team under Dennis's leadership. I assume that the Motul-Rondel outfit was effectively "Project 3" (or 2 ?) but I don't recall the earlier set-ups actually being referred to in that way.
Project One: 1971 F2 "Rondel Racing" - Schenken, Wollek, Hill with Brabhams
Project Two: 1972 F2 "Motul Rondel Racing" - Schenken, Wollek, Pescarolo with Brabhams
Project Three: 1975 F2 "Project Three Racing" - Peterson, Brambilla, Depailler, Pescia, Cinotti, Kuwashima with Marches
Project Four: 1977 F2 "Project Four Racing" - Cheever, Hoffman with Ralts
#45
Twin Window
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 19:42
As I mentioned earlier, Project 4 first appeared in 1976 running Marches.
#46
Vicuna
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 16:30
Originally posted by Twin Window
Does this show the papyrus a little better?
That's Rylands Traffic Yellow isn't it?
#47
petefenelon
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 20:48
Originally posted by giacomo
Following Pierre Menard:
Project One: 1971 F2 "Rondel Racing" - Schenken, Wollek, Hill with Brabhams
Project Two: 1972 F2 "Motul Rondel Racing" - Schenken, Wollek, Pescarolo with Brabhams
Project Three: 1975 F2 "Project Three Racing" - Peterson, Brambilla, Depailler, Pescia, Cinotti, Kuwashima with Marches
Project Four: 1977 F2 "Project Four Racing" - Cheever, Hoffman with Ralts
It's interesting to note that even at that early age, Ron was a master of 'spin' - Rondel and Motul were both moderately successful, but the very unsuccessful Marlboro-Ecuador F2 team was "un-personed" in his list of projects!
#48
philippe charuest
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 21:18
so that was a ron dennis operation . i remember that before the 74 season there was a lot of publicity around it fittipaldi was supose to be the main driver finnally we only saw shenken , another abort project was with villeneuve he was supose to do the whole 77 f2 season for dennis with the malboro support
#49
philippe7
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 11:03
Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Reference the Scots Whisky Association they have recommended that distilleries do not get involved in motoring sponsorship as a matter of course and nothing to do with political parties of any colour. However, a number of companies have been involved in minor sponsorship in Scotland. The longest serving one was Dambuie who sponsored Ian Forrests cars for over ten years. Tim Morrison, a friend of Jackie Stewarts, had stickers for, I think, the Morrison family's Highland Malt distillery Glengarrioch, and Old Court put up some sponsorship for David Duffield in Formula Ford. Johnny Walker, however, always used to have a presence at Le Mans with a top hatted, red coated fellow wandering around the grid before the start. So as I say, it is not unknown, but uncommon.
William Grant Scotch Whisky did sponsor Stewart Racing , then Jaguar in its early years . Although I think they were rather "official suppliers" , since the ( hefty) sum they paid was sufficient to be mentioned in the team's promotional papers, but not enough apparently to deserve a sticker on the car....William Grant invited me to the 2000 Australian Grand Prix , and I have a (personal !) letter of Sir Jackie somewhere mentioning that he is "very pleased to be associated with William Grant , the Scottish connection being very important" to him .
