Have the 'learning formulae' lost their value?

This I have been wondering about for a while. In ye old days, you had FF, F3, F5000, and F2 where talents could showcase themselves, and use as ladders to F1. In F2 they could even match themselves with F1 drivers. There were people like Lauda and Berger, who didn't shine 'down there' but turned out to be rather useful (irony on/off) F1 drivers. But still the lower formula were proving grounds.

But the strange this...from somewhere in the mid nineties... there are several drivers who blitzed the lower formula and just didn't get anywhere in F1. Modena, Verstappen, Magnussen, come to mind. I mean: Raikkonen and Alonso are the biggest new talents of F1 in the last ten years, aren't they? And they were plucked/grabbed/introduced into F1 before they even could blitz the field.

Meanwhile, we got Klien (big in F3, in F1... well, perhaps he can become something, but...).

I notice myself not being impressed when someone wins F3, nippon or whatever. So the question is: are the climbing ladders to F1 still that... climbing ladders?

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
This I have been wondering about for a while. In ye old days, you had FF, F3, F5000, and F2 where talents could showcase themselves, and use as ladders to F1. In F2 they could even match themselves with F1 drivers. There were people like Lauda and Berger, who didn't shine 'down there' but turned out to be rather useful (irony on/off) F1 drivers. But still the lower formula were proving grounds.

But the strange this...from somewhere in the mid nineties... there are several drivers who blitzed the lower formula and just didn't get anywhere in F1. Modena, Verstappen, Magnussen, come to mind. I mean: Raikkonen and Alonso are the biggest new talents of F1 in the last ten years, aren't they? And they were plucked/grabbed/introduced into F1 before they even could blitz the field.

Meanwhile, we got Klien (big in F3, in F1... well, perhaps he can become something, but...).

I notice myself not being impressed when someone wins F3, nippon or whatever. So the question is: are the climbing ladders to F1 still that... climbing ladders?

I've described my "theory of modern junior formulae" elsewhere on TNF but it bears repeating.

In the "good old days" there was a well-defined ladder to F1. You started off locally in FFord or FVee and if you did well you went into national F3, which led to Euro F3, or F2. There was F5000 if you were kind of stuck in the doorway of F1, but on the whole, you'd be competing with a cohort of drivers who were all on the same career path as you and if you'd convincingly beaten them in one formula on the way up that was it -- you progressed; they didn't.

Now, there's a plethora of overlapping formulae. Do you go the Renault one-make route, do you skip FFord and go straight to wings and slicks with FBMW, do you do GP2 or A1GP, or go over to the States and race in IRL or Champcar? Do you do national or Euro F3? -- A major part of the "career management" plan for any young hotshoe these days seems to be to actively avoid ever having him compete against anyone who might be a threat to him on the way to F1. So these days you get a bunch of guys coming out of assorted ladder formulae who are all "the next big thing" -- the top guys have actively avoided competing against each other until they're all in the market for F1 tests.

What this means is that the "quality threshold" is lower. There is less strength in depth in any of the classes; the barrier to success is lower, the youngsters haven't established a proper pecking order; there's maybe half a dozen career routes to F1, and because each of them has only 1/6 of the top talent, it means a lot of guys who previously wouldn't've got anywhere near F1 can sneak under the wire because they've never really had to race before.

Also, most junior formula cars embody the faults of modern F1 -- too much aero, too little power, too low a ride height, too little suspension movement.

There is some hope for GP2, the cars move around nicely. A1GP is OK, but those deliberately-wooden tyres are risible.

Formula Three is a bad joke. I'd sooner go for the three P's (pie, pint, and p*ss) during an F3 race than watch the tedium of a load of Dallaras glued to the ground and farting round with that restrictor. They should line their dads' chequebooks up and compare those rather than racing.

Originally posted by petefenelon
Formula Three is a bad joke. I'd sooner go for the three P's (pie, pint, and p*ss) during an F3 race than watch the tedium of a load of Dallaras glued to the ground and farting round with that restrictor. They should line their dads' chequebooks up and compare those rather than racing.

I share your optimism about GP2 as well, but why they didn't call it Formula 2 is beyond me. One man who has followed 'ye olde' path in recent years is Lewis Hamilton - and he's dominated pretty much everywhere he's been so far. Be interesting to see how he goes in GP2. I think, like you, that having all the rising talent racing together gave a much better idea of who was actually any good.

Driver aids must blur that distinction still further, but that's another thread entirely...

Originally posted by petefenelon

Formula Three is a bad joke. I'd sooner go for the three P's (pie, pint, and p*ss) during an F3 race than watch the tedium of a load of Dallaras glued to the ground and farting round with that restrictor. They should line their dads' chequebooks up and compare those rather than racing.

How are the mighty fallen. In my day (when I lived in a paper bag in a septic tank, etc) you wouldn't move from the spot during an F3 race. Blink and you'd miss something. But even in those days, if you shone in F3 and were recognised as the Next Big Thing, it didn't automatically guarantee success if you ever made it to F1. I can think of Tony Trimmer and Dave Walker as fairly obvious examples. And you can also think of others such as James Hunt who looked quite good in F3 but weren't really much more than journeymen - and if you think of Hunt in, say, mid 1972 he looked as though he was progressing nicely nowhere. Funny old sport, motor racing.

You can argue guys didnt get to F1 that should have, but I dont think the junior ranks have produced any frauds. Sure there are guys there because of checkbooks, but when did F1 ever not have that? I think its more a reflection on F1 these days than the junior ranks, that even the ridebuyers have decent CVs.

Originally posted by ian senior


How are the mighty fallen. In my day (when I lived in a paper bag in a septic tank, etc) you wouldn't move from the spot during an F3 race. Blink and you'd miss something. But even in those days, if you shone in F3 and were recognised as the Next Big Thing, it didn't automatically guarantee success if you ever made it to F1. I can think of Tony Trimmer and Dave Walker as fairly obvious examples. And you can also think of others such as James Hunt who looked quite good in F3 but weren't really much more than journeymen - and if you think of Hunt in, say, mid 1972 he looked as though he was progressing nicely nowhere. Funny old sport, motor racing.

The modern Formula Three car is, I would argue, too good to make a great driver look like a God amongst men and a bad driver look atrocious. The car levels out the differences. The basic product is too sophisticated and refined now. (I've long believed that jacking the cars up to about 40mm and ripping the air restrictor off might make F3 into something worth watching...)

F3 was pretty compelling certainly up to the early 90s, mainly because if you wanted a Grand Prix drive in a UK-based team, the best place to attract attention was in British F3, so it acquired almost all of the hotshoes, with the exception of the production-lines of Italian ex-karters who went straight into their F3 series.

The last single-seater driver to leave me gasping at how good his technique was was Pizzonia through the Craners in an FRenault. Poetry - he was in another universe with different geometric laws. The guy's car control was absolutely beautiful - made me want to see him holding a 250F in a drift, or getting some opposite-lock on in a 72.

Pete, I hear (maybe exception to the rule) that last year in GP2, that You mentioned as with some potential- competed three best things since (son of) sliced bread... And cars seem to be genuinely 'racable'- I think Rosberg demonstrated that (as well as made a case about his talents). I don't know whether it was a fluke (success of the series) or too early to tell, but GP2 seems to be able to become a stepping stone into F1.

As for 'diversity' of the junior formulae, I think FIA should sanction, despite the current trend, only 2 or 3 types of jr. open-wheelers and stick to it. Something like F4 and F3 for national level, F3 and F2 for continental level, and F2 for global level of competition (or one can do it with F3 and F2 only*). Lowest classes could be, say untuned motorcycle engines (F4 no wings). This way there are too many blind alleys, and as Pete puts it places to go to avoid measuring oneself with anybody.

* I don't mean current F3, but third strongest class

And pls. do away with go-karts, make kids race cycle-karts.

If you want to drive in F1, what do you learn in the lower formulae?

You don't learn to deal with auto boxes, software downloading, limited testing, adapting other people's data, semi-auto starting, repeated pitstops and strategy changing &c &c. The lower formulae are unfit for determining how good an F1 driver someone will be. The best apprenticeship is to get into F1 ASAP - viz Raikkonen and Alonso having more of an impact than the likes of Heidfeld. I wonder if the familiarity with the type of car was a reason why Raikkonen was generally more impressive than Montoya, the latter is not used to making intra-lap farty little adjustments to approach 100% performance, but is more used to using ability to do so.

It's in the last few tenths where the difference is. Look at Chanoch Nissany. With no experience to speak of he was at 90% of the speed of his much more experienced team-mates. F1 should not be like that. He should have been much, much further adrift. It is too easy to get close...

Ian,

I remember when good F3 was almost as good as good Formula Junior used to be.

RL

Nissany was bad though. Horribly bad. He wasnt close by any standards.

But he was closer in practice than dear old Ottorino "6 laps down out of 22" Volonterio was in a race...

6 or 8 seconds or whatever it was in a car that engineers say is easy to get to 95% but the final 5% become more exponentially difficult. Hell Biaggi was closer in time on his F1 test.

To be clear: I do not think there are any 'frauds' in Formula 1 at the moment... I just think that some drivers (Albers, Klien) rightfully earned their titles in f3, earned their rights to Formula 1... but that's no proof they are up to the task. Look at Doornbos... he has wone one F3000 race, has raced incredibly short... and he certainly is no slouch compared to Klien and Albers, is he?

Let's put it this way. It looks like Lewis Hamilton is THE deal, the real thing... but at the same time I feel he can also come into F1... and get nowhere. I would not be suprised.

The same is actualy happening for years in junior tennis (my field of real expertise). It is staggering how many Grand Slam winners in the juniors never even get beyond the 3nd round of a normal Grand Slam tournament THEIR WHOLE CAREER!

Why? Because the really, really talented guys either go straight to the seniors (Hingis, Williams sisters), go to college first, or groove their talents so they kind of sink in the juniors (Sampras).

Methinks the same happens in motorsport. The really talented don't really need the lower formula's. The grapevine will help them get there. The just under supertop need results, sponsors etcetera

Agree?

Slightly off-topic, but something I've been wondering about lately:

Is the role Formula Vee fulfilled in the 1960's - allowing drivers to compete on a (semi)professional level with a modest budget to gain experience - nowadays fulfilled by karting?

Or, in other words, is it fair to say that karting is the modern day Formula Vee?

That's not offtopic at all... because in karting, I myself (and I have been watching F1 since christ was born almost) karts for me are proving of someone's talent. If someone would have beaten Raikkonen in FF2000, I would say: Oh well... but if todays Raikkonen would be beaten by, say, Joe Average from Middlesex, I would shout: Sign that SOB as quick as possible!

Which says something about the steppingstones to F1

Top karting is expensive as hell though, the only class where you could maybe do it on sweat and talent is the Rotax class. But thats not where the big guns are. Your best hope is getting in very young and hoping a factory will bring you up the ranks. European Championship level karting is a 6 figure budget.

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
Slightly off-topic, but something I've been wondering about lately:

Is the role Formula Vee fulfilled in the 1960's - allowing drivers to compete on a (semi)professional level with a modest budget to gain experience - nowadays fulfilled by karting?

Or, in other words, is it fair to say that karting is the modern day Formula Vee?

Given the role that FVee took in the UK, I'd say that FVee is the modern FVee -- a formula for the relatively impecunious amateur to race for fun. (It was never seen as part of the 'ladder' here, I think Brian Henton is the only person who said he was going to be world champion after winning the FVee championship). Alternatively, clubbie racing of Kent FFords, or Monoposto in which a lot of single-seaters go to lead a thoroughly entertaining second childhood...

"Mainstream" single-seater racing (i.e. Zetec/Duratec FFord, FRenault, F3) is pretty much out of the reach of all but the most affluent amateur without serious commercial sponsorship.

Originally posted by petefenelon
a formula for the relatively impecunious amateur to race for fun. (It was never seen as part of the 'ladder' here....)

Well, I don't doubt that Formula Vee was indeed a chance for the amateur to race for fun, but back in the day, it was more than that.

I'm not very familiar with the situation in the UK, but in I reckon that elsewhere, in Austria and Germany in particular, Formula Vee was very much part of the ladder. The Europapokal was a prestigious championship to win in the 1960's.

However, having said that, Formula Vee was just one step on the ladder - be it to touring/sportscar racing, F3 or otherwise - and not a jumpboard into major classes. Very few of the top Formula Vee drivers actually made it big. But, and that's why the formula was important, it offered drivers, professional or amateur, a doorway into racing. The importance of Formula Vee can hardly be underestimated in this repect I think.

Although Formula Vee is still raced today, the class is hardly of any importance anymore, and indeed more intended for the amateur to race and have fun, I think.

But that's one of the reasons for my original question - Formula Vee isn't the first step on the ladder anymore, but then: what class is nowadays? Karting was the most obvious answer for me.

Another aspect which hasn't been touched is the involvement of top-of-the-ladder drivers in the lower formulae. In NASCAR, this happens all the time. Even if they don't need it, you'll see guys like Tony Stewart, Carl Edwards, Ryan Newman, Mark Martin et al. running races in the Busch series, Trucks, local short tracks, etc. This gives the less-experienced drivers a chance to be compared with them. It also puts the spotlight on the young guys. It can create good press and notoriety.


It used to be the same for F1 drivers. OK, Chapman had cars to sell, but, as late as 1973, Peterson and Fittipaldi still ran the odd F2 race. Remember that Fittipladi was the reigning F1 World Champion at the time. Can you imagine the same nowadays?

James Hunt put in a good word about Gilles Villeneuve to Teddy Mayer after racing as his teammate at Trois-Rivières in 1976 (FAtlantics). That was the single most important race of Gilles's career before F1. Because he raced against established F1 stars, Europe took notice. In 1969, Jackie Stewart had a great fight against François Cevert at Reims. He took note. That race, in F2 cars, played a big role towards Cevert's graduation to F1.


I believe this is one area where the FIA should follow (Gasp! Eghads! ) NASCAR. If you want to strengthen the lower formulae, have the Big Boys race them from time to time.

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
Slightly off-topic, but something I've been wondering about lately:

Is the role Formula Vee fulfilled in the 1960's - allowing drivers to compete on a (semi)professional level with a modest budget to gain experience - nowadays fulfilled by karting?

Or, in other words, is it fair to say that karting is the modern day Formula Vee?

not really, not much people reach the top coming from the fvee even in the 60s, i thinq that already then formula vee was more an economic and fun type of racing for drivers who didnt intend to do a carreer.on the other hand already in the late sixties karting at international level was serious business for f1 wannabe and ready to do anything to win , in fact since the mid seventies all the f1 drivers except very few exceptions came drom the karting

I believe both Räikkönen and Alonso used the PlayStation route to F1...;)