A nice example of understatement

May I assume that most here are subscribers (if not, then please become one!). In Ask Nigel today (March 2) an inquisitor asks him about the 1988 Italian GP <http://www.autosport...x.html/id/21490> and whether the gods were somehow involved in Ferrari's unlikely 1-2.

In the closing lines of his response, Roebuck said: "This was Italy, so it's not...impossible that the Gods were saying thank you to the Old Man, but, trust me, a gentlemen's agreement never came into it. I think you'd have had to be very brave to put that hypothesis to Ayrton...

Love it!

It was simply one of the moments that makes any type of sport great. The stuff that dreams are made of, the kind of script that a publisher would throw into the bin.

I was in two minds about it. Obviously it was great for the Ferrari fans to see a 1-2 at home, and as a Berger fan I was happy that a guy who would have been in with a shout at the title "but for" got a win, but a part of me was cursing that we would not see a McLaren clean sweep for the season, which would have been an outstanding achievement.

Originally posted by St.Hubbins
It was simply one of the moments that makes any type of sport great.

No it wasn't; Senna and Schlesser had a "racing incident" (that looked to me like Schlesser not getting out of the way quickly enough, in a fairly inept way); Ferrari inherited a win. Had they gone out and beaten the McLarens on pace, great. As it was - so what? I've very little time for inherited wins. I prefer them to be either fought for or crushingly dominant.

Originally posted by ensign14
I was in two minds about it. Obviously it was great for the Ferrari fans to see a 1-2 at home, and as a Berger fan I was happy that a guy who would have been in with a shout at the title "but for" got a win, but a part of me was cursing that we would not see a McLaren clean sweep for the season, which would have been an outstanding achievement.

Ens, I agree. Much as I hated Dennis/Mclaren then, and still do now, it would have been an historic achievement, and good to have lived thru' it. Much like the Arse unbeaten season I guess...

I've always thought it would have been preferable for the Commendatore to have left us after seeing his cars finish 1-2 (preferably, as Pete says, on merit)

Willie

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Ens, I agree. Much as I hated Dennis/Mclaren then, and still do now, it would have been an historic achievement, and good to have lived thru' it. Much like the Arse unbeaten season I guess...

Equallly tedious, and not good for either sport. Only statisticians can love that kind of thing.

Originally posted by petefenelon

No it wasn't; Senna and Schlesser had a "racing incident" (that looked to me like Schlesser not getting out of the way quickly enough, in a fairly inept way)...

Looked to me as if Senna was being his usual impatient, assumptive self.

ya it was senna's mistake , as usual he didnt let any breathing space to the backmarker , he didnt seem to understand that they were not ectoplasm

In some ways a bigger mistake than Monaco.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
In some ways a bigger mistake than Monaco.

True, undeniably a legend but a deeply flawed one.

My most treasured motor racing memory of all.

I was 8 years old at the time and Berger and Alboreto are my all-time favourites. I can remember watching the BBC coverage in the lounge, a sunny afternoon and I was no more than a meter away from the TV. I was already happy because the 'evil' Prost in the 'evil' McLaren was out of the race and Berger and Alboreto were catching Senna rapidly. My parents couldn't really understand why their 8 year old son was so obsessed about cars going around in circles. I remember anticipating that something special could happen as Murray Walker kept updating us about the decreasing gap. I kept saying to myself 'please, something go wrong on the McLaren, PLEASE!' and then there it was...the cameras switched to Senna as the McLaren spun and was stuck on the kerb! "SPIN, SENNA! AYRTON SENNA SPINS AND INTO THE LEAD GOES BERGER AND INTO SECOND PLACE GOES ALBORETO! WHAT A FANTASTIC SITUATION!

Music to my ears! So yes, there is a God, and he answered MY prayers that sunday!

If there is one motor racing event I wish I could have seen in flesh, that would have been it. I remember explaining the whole story to my class at school on the monday morning, the day after the race!

I then drew a picture of Berger and Alboreto in their beautiful F1-87-88C's winning the Italian GP and sent it to Ferrari with a letter saying I was over the moon. I didn't expect anything in return, but you could imagine my delight when I returned home from school some weeks later and my mother said 'there is a pracel for you' For me? "Yes" It was a yellow package, with a Ferrari stamp on it and it was sent from Italy! I could not believe it as I was not expecting anything in return. They sent me some posters and real autographs of Berger and Alboreto.

Brilliant!

Originally posted by ian senior


Equallly tedious, and not good for either sport. Only statisticians can love that kind of thing.

Exactly. The way this race turned was a much more entertaining and fitting result, especially considering the venue and the timing.

Originally posted by ian senior


Equallly tedious, and not good for either sport. Only statisticians can love that kind of thing.

A prolonged period of domination would be, but for one year not so bad. The concern is whether domination is a symptom of the way the rules work (which is increasingly happening in Euro leagues because of the Champions League) or whether it is one of those sweet spots that occasionally you get into. In 1988 at least the rules were changing come season end so we knew it would be more interesting the next year.

Originally posted by petefenelon


No it wasn't; Senna and Schlesser had a "racing incident" (that looked to me like Schlesser not getting out of the way quickly enough, in a fairly inept way); Ferrari inherited a win. Had they gone out and beaten the McLarens on pace, great. As it was - so what? I've very little time for inherited wins. I prefer them to be either fought for or crushingly dominant.

Berger and Alboreto had a fighting chance of beating Senna without the aid of Schlesser. THey were lapping a lot quicker in the latter stages while Senna was having to pace himself having pushed hard to keep Prost at bay early in the race.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
In some ways a bigger mistake than Monaco.

I have always liked the story about Alain Prost knewing he had to retire shortly from the race, thus scoring no points and to hepl Senna score as least as possible points too race Senna to the bitter end in order to raise his fuel consumption. Or hoping that he would break too.
It obviously worked since Senna had to conserve fuel in the final stages of the race so the Ferrari's closed in and then he made that error.

I rarely defend Senna for his track behaviour but having heard that story, I honestly wonder: had Prost not forced Senna to race in the early part of the race and with the Ferraris further away from him in that final stage of the race, would Senna have made that error with Schlesser by then as well? I am not sure he would. But given his messing up needlessly during overtaking in later years, you can't predict....

Anyway, I was also mighty relieved that Mclaren didn't make it a clkean sweep. Given Ron's arrogance at the time and in later years he probably would have become even more arrogant because of it and remained that more arrogant because of that achievement too.

Besides that: it's always nice to have that one single goal in performance not achievable for everyone....




Henri

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



I have always liked the story about Alain Prost knewing he had to retire shortly from the race, thus scoring no points and to hepl Senna score as least as possible points too race Senna to the bitter end in order to raise his fuel consumption. Or hoping that he would break too.

Prost showing the team mentality that served him so well when he became an owner.

Prost should be taught in racing schools as an example of how to lead a race without being in first place.

Originally posted by ensign14

Prost showing the team mentality that served him so well when he became an owner.

Brilliant drivers were not always good teammanagers and vice verca.

Have a look at Enzo Ferrari and Roger Penske. No brilliant drivers but...
Or two other cases of driver-teamowners in the USA:

Harry Hartz and Lou Moore. They were decent drivers, Hartz in particular but as team owners they wer far more succesfull.

And there must be many more good examples but other than Reinhold Jöst I can't think of a name right now.



As for LigierProst:
I remember when Ligier was Mugen powered and Jordan had the Peugeots and then all of a sudden they swapped engines. Wasn't that because of Prost wanting a French engine?
Now, had this engine swap never happened, what would have become of LigierProst and Jordan then instead of what eventually happened.....


Henri

In 97 both the Pug and the Mugen seemed like decent engines. After that they didnt. Unless the 97 Jordan was a ferociously quick car, because Pug never really showed much before or after that season.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
In 97 both the Pug and the Mugen seemed like decent engines. After that they didnt. Unless the 97 Jordan was a ferociously quick car, because Pug never really showed much before or after that season.

Jordan in '99 was quite good I remember: H-HF finishing third in the season standings and winning races...
Pug excused themselves when leaving F1 that it was so hard to show point scores with only the first 6 cars awarded points.

..... while in rallying they were among the first 6 scoring poinst scores quite often with the 206WRC so it was a poor excuse....


henri

I recall Gary Anderson complaining that Peugeot had no concept of either the chassis/engine 'package' or needing different engines for different circuits. It was like "Right, here's your engines, see you next year."

Yep, and I also remember being told that the receipt of brown envelopes by certain Peugeot employees never helped matters either...