1950s Goodwood pictures... is it Fangio?

My mum has been clearing out some old photographs, and came across these two. Definitely taken by my late father at Goodwood in the early 50s. Mum has labelled the first as Fangio and the second as a BRM, but is she right?

I believe the first is Mike Hawthorn and the second tony Rolt in the ERA-Delage. Both at the Easter Monday Meeting 1952.

That would make more sense - Dad was certainly a big Hawthorn fan.

Alan Brown in the Cooper-Bristol - more his posture than Hawthorn's, I think
And Brown was No.20 in the Lavant Cup

Originally posted by David McKinney
Alan Brown in the Cooper-Bristol - more his posture than Hawthorn's, I think
And Brown was No.20 in the Lavant Cup

I thought he was no 10 - as was Hawthorn in the Richmond Trophy. However, this looks like number 41 to me, which was Mike's number in the Lavant Cup. Also, wasn't his car unpainted as this one appears to be? Brown's car had a dark band around the nose.

I really must get new glasses - first Fangio's number in the 1957 British GP, now Brown's here

According to Sheldon, CBs in the Lavant Cup (F2) were:
4 Brandon
10 Brown
41 Hawthorn
46 Cooper (dns)
And in the Richmond Trophy (F1):
4 Brandon
10 Hawthorn (Brown's)
I don't have numbers for the other races
Of course, if that's an elephant-trunk I spot atop the bonnet the car in the picture has to be Hawthorn's ;)

The Cooper-Bristol pretty much matches the pic of Hawthorn on p235 of Motor Sport, May 1952. White number on dark background, with the car looking unpainted as Roger said.

Rolt is also depicted in the ERA-Delage on page 238. The apparel seems to match, as does the number positioning on the tail.

Is that Hamilton's Talbot behind Rolt? Looks a bit small though ....

Just twigged what the crucial difference is between the real Goodwood crowd and the Revival Goodwood crowd, no matter how careful the Dressing Up.

The haircuts!

Pass the pudding basin, Horace.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vitesse2
[B]The Cooper-Bristol pretty much matches the pic of Hawthorn on p235 of Motor Sport, May 1952. White number on dark background, with the car looking unpainted as Roger said.

And the picture on p34 of mon Ami Mate - white overalls, big bark helmet and visor (before Mike adopted the distinctive black helmet with white peak) and driver 'much too large for the car'.

Mal, Hawthorn NEVER wore a black helmet. Darkish blue, but definitely blue!

Well, well, well - ain't that amazin'.

Just goes to show how one can carry a wrong image all one's life. Barry, you know by now I can bore to international standard on the subject of the Dundrod TT races - so much so that the background wallpaper on the machine on which I write this is a picture of JMH taking XKD506 through Tornagrough on that day in September 51 years ago. In that (colour) picture (if I could make the instructions in the Posting Images thread work for this machine, I'd post it here - but I'll send it to you privately and maybe you could post it) the helmet looks black. When the man walked past me on his way to the pits having blown the engine I was sure the helmet I had been watching him wearing all day and which I could see him carrying was black. All my life, I've remembered Hawthorn (but then I saw him only once in the flesh, and I was only 11 years old) as wearing a black helmet. I know every frame of the Motor Films Quarterly footage (the only colour footage in existence, I believe) of the Dundrod '55 TT, and I think I've seen every colour picture there is of the '54 TT, when JMH shared the leading (but not winning) 3 litre Ferrari with Maurice Trintignant, and in every shot (even of the man walking into the pits, with a couple of very clear shots of the helmet) and in every picture the helmet looks black. There are no colour pictures in Mon Ami Mate, and while the painting on the back dustjacket shows a helmet that appears to be black, fair enough the front dust jacket shows a blue sheen on the helmet. And inside it does say, p47, quite unequivocally: 'The Hawthorn racing uniform was now complete: dark blue helmet with visor, white shirt with bow tie covered by a green jacket; driving gloves, white linen trousers which buttoned at the ankles; socks and a pair of battered old brogue shoes.'

All I can say is: it might have been blue, but it was a very dark blue indeed.

BTW - he wore a BROWN jacket that day - but over his green jerkin.

We live and learn - which is presumably the point of subscribing to this forum.

Originally posted by Mal9444
Well, well, well - ain't that amazin'.

Just goes to show how one can carry a wrong image all one's life. Barry, you know by now I can bore to international standard on the subject of the Dundrod TT races - so much so that the background wallpaper on the machine on which I write this is a picture of JMH taking XKD506 through Tornagrough on that day in September 51 years ago. In that (colour) picture (if I could make the instructions in the Posting Images thread work for this machine, I'd post it here - but I'll send it to you privately and maybe you could post it) the helmet looks black. When the man walked past me on his way to the pits having blown the engine I was sure the helmet I had been watching him wearing all day and which I could see him carrying was black. All my life, I've remembered Hawthorn (but then I saw him only once in the flesh, and I was only 11 years old) as wearing a black helmet. I know every frame of the Motor Films Quarterly footage (the only colour footage in existence, I believe) of the Dundrod '55 TT, and I think I've seen every colour picture there is of the '54 TT, when JMH shared the leading (but not winning) 3 litre Ferrari with Maurice Trintignant, and in every shot (even of the man walking into the pits, with a couple of very clear shots of the helmet) and in every picture the helmet looks black. There are no colour pictures in Mon Ami Mate, and while the painting on the back dustjacket shows a helmet that appears to be black, fair enough the front dust jacket shows a blue sheen on the helmet. And inside it does say, p47, quite unequivocally: 'The Hawthorn racing uniform was now complete: dark blue helmet with visor, white shirt with bow tie covered by a green jacket; driving gloves, white linen trousers which buttoned at the ankles; socks and a pair of battered old brogue shoes.'

All I can say is: it might have been blue, but it was a very dark blue indeed.

BTW - he wore a BROWN jacket that day - but over his green jerkin.

We live and learn - which is presumably the point of subscribing to this forum.

As seen at the following site:

Google - Images - Eugenio Castellotti - look for motorimania site or image by alberto ponni
www.motorimania.it/pitture/quadri_auto_ponno.asp

If nothing else enjoy all of the Alberto Ponni F1 images

Doug Nye's Cooper Cars page 61 shows a line up with Alan Brown's car, no 10, black numbers, dark nose ring; Eric Brandon no 4 or 4*, black on a white roundel, dark-ish nose ring; Fangio in John Cooper's car, black no 4 or 4*, light or white nose ring; Hawthorn in an unpainted car. then it has a picture of Fangio in Alan Brown's car, no 4* wearing a (borrowed) white helmet. On page 62 there's the grid for the Lavant Cup, Hawthorn and Brown both in dark helmets, Hawthorn with a white number 41 on a black background and Brown with no 10. The text says that Fangio drove Brown's car in the Chichester Cup.
So it could be Fangio, if he had borrowed a second dark helmet, but I think it is probably Alan Brown.

Now, Gigleux's programme is interesting. Mike certainly drove in the Richmond Trophy. But did he drive his car, renumbered with Alan Brown's number so he could use his entry, or did he drive Alan Brown's car as David McKinney suggests? Neither Cooper Cars or Mon Ami, Mate make any mention of either changing numbers or changing cars.

Hawthorn was allowed to drive his Cooper-Bristol in place of Brown's car ...

Richmond Trophy report, Motor Sport May 1952 page 241

There's also confirmation that Hawthorn's car was unpainted

Thanks Richard, In parallel I found that in The Glory of Goodwood on page 119 it shows Hawthorn in an unpainted car with no 41 in white on the radiator grille. Then on page 120 it shows him in an unpainted car with no 10 on the bonnet and 10 in black on the grille painted over the 41.

Case closed

Here is the image that mal9444 mentioned earlier.



It is easy to see how Mike's helmet might be taken as black.

The interesting thing is... what happened to the side part of the windscreen? Mal's suspicion is that he broke it jumping in as it was there as the cars were lined up for the start but was gone a few laps into the race.

I am relying on memory in stating the following as I am many miles from my archive just now.

The opening picture shows (I believe) Hawthorn in the Cooper Bristol. His car had a longer air intake than usual (something to do with it running on a more potent fuel) which explains its superior pace compared to the other Cooper Bristols at the meeting, notwithstanding Mike's abilities.

As for his almost iconic helmet/visor (although he did very occasionally wear the ubiquitous Lewis Mk8 motor cycle goggles), period colour pics vary from dark blue to almost a green shade, due to the colour bias of 1950s film and of course deterioration of stock. I was amused to see an obviously faked up Hawthorn lid for sale at one of the auction houses some years ago.

Finally thanks Barry for the '55 TT colour shot. Wonderful and this captures perfectly the savage adventure that was motor racing 50+ years ago past hedgrows, trees et al. Having driven a 'long nose' and being 6 feet tall I still cannot imagine how MH fitted in there, or indeed managed to run and jump in and especially having to race one hour after hour.

Maybe this accounts for the missing side window. Perhaps he kicked it off trying to get in quickly.

Barry - thanks for posting 'my' Hawthorn TT picture. Of course it is not 'mine' - I found it on the web a couple of years ago, downloaded it and did not make a note of the name of the photographer. So if he is reading this (I recall it was a man's name) - thank you for a cracking shot.

And if Wolf is reading this - don't worry, mate - I remain true to the Cause. My office computer uses as wallpaper that classic shot of Moss crossing the finish line in the Merc, with his arm in the air and Fangio close astern in the second 300slr. I especialy like this one because I'm in it too - the only contemporary photo I have of me and Moss together. Since I have not yet mastered the instructions for posting images to TNF, hewre is the link, for anyone interested:
http://www.worldcarf...d-stirling-moss

I can clearly be seen standing stage left of the commentary box adjacent to the telegraph pole next to the trees in the right hand corner of the picture. Stirling Moss in the one in the car with his arm in the air.

Originally posted by Mal9444
I can clearly be seen standing stage left of the commentary box adjacent to the telegraph pole next to the trees in the right hand corner of the picture. Stirling Moss in the one in the car with his arm in the air.

You haven't changed a bit