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A question about co-drivers in endurance races

Started by TheStranger , Mar 22 2006 09:09

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18 replies to this topic

#1 TheStranger

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 09:09

Thinking about AJ Foyt's 1983 Daytona 24 Hours win (after he took Preston Henn's offer to join the team mid-race)...

Is it still possible today for a co-driver to suddenly be added during an event, like was the case for Foyt that Sunday morning (which surprised and bemused Bob Wollek)...I'm assuming that a team's driver list has to be decided in advance these days though, and even back then, clearly that impromptu roster addition was unusual. I wonder if that was the last time that ever happened.

This also brings me back to, I think it was the 1965 24 Hours of LeMans where there may have been another co-driver not officially listed for the winning car...

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#2 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 09:52

Didn't Ickx take over a car that he wasn't originally down to drive for one of his LeMans wins?

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#3 Rob Ryder

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 10:53

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Didn't Ickx take over a car that he wasn't originally down to drive for one of his LeMans wins?

In 1977 he started in #3 Porsche 936-77 and when it failed drove #4 to win.
In 1978 he started in #5 Porsche 936-78 and then in #6 to finish 2nd.
Rob

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#4 petefenelon

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 11:04

Originally posted by TheStranger
Thinking about AJ Foyt's 1983 Daytona 24 Hours win (after he took Preston Henn's offer to join the team mid-race)...

Is it still possible today for a co-driver to suddenly be added during an event, like was the case for Foyt that Sunday morning (which surprised and bemused Bob Wollek)...I'm assuming that a team's driver list has to be decided in advance these days though, and even back then, clearly that impromptu roster addition was unusual. I wonder if that was the last time that ever happened.

This also brings me back to, I think it was the 1965 24 Hours of LeMans where there may have been another co-driver not officially listed for the winning car...

Yes, I've seen that claim about Rindt/Gregory before.... I've also heard it mentioned in conjunction with one of the March-Nissan entries in the mid-80s - the whole sorry tale is in Mike Lawrence's March book. James Weaver was involved (back in the days before he looked scary!), but whether he was the extra driver or one of the ones who was surprised I can't remember.

It's not unknown these days to enter drivers in multiple cars, but only expect them to drive one of them. A typical situation is a team with four drivers, normally paired A/B and C/D, with A in a potential championship winning position - for the "crunch" races the entry might well be A/B/D and A/C/D. B and C will start the race, with A switching to whichever car is better placed, and D taking the other. But the entries would be made like that in advance... and A and D would typically have to qualify in both cars.

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#5 Sharman

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 11:23

If you consult entry lists for the 50's this practice was common then Aston Martin was particularly prone to it

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#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 11:24

Originally posted by TheStranger
This also brings me back to, I think it was the 1965 24 Hours of LeMans where there may have been another co-driver not officially listed for the winning car...

Here's a previous thread on the subject:

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=21211

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#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 11:46

Hmm, Im guessing you cant anymore. Is my memory bad or in 2004 did one of the Veloqx/Audi UK R8s crash, and McNish had a concussion or something in the accident. His teammates had to do the rest of the race on their own.

Now maybe they could have replaced him (I doubt it though, they always talk about 'nominated drivers') but there werent any R8 qualified guys at hand on the day.

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#8 D-Type

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 12:21

The real difference came with the introduction of a drivers' championship. When it was a championship for makes, who drove a car was immaterial to the championship but obviously relevant to the race and the distribution of the prize money. The regulations would have reflected this but probably required the drivers to be nominated, possibly because of insurance implications.

With the onset of the drivers' championship the scenario described by petefenelon occurred and this may have been banned as not being in the spirit of a drivers' championship.

The usual health warning about the evolution from race organisers writing the regulations to the regulations being centrally written by the series organisers (ie the FIA) applies.

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#9 LotusElise

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 12:34

It was happening in the Nurburgring 24 Hours last year. A couple of drivers are in the results list in two different cars (can't remember which ones).
Obviously some regs allow it but not others.

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#10 James Page

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 13:31

Martin Brundle did the same when he won at Le Mans in 1990 (?). He went out in the 'hare' car to break the Porsches, then took Salazar's place in another Jaguar.

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#11 canon1753

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 15:37

Mario was put in the highest placed Ferrari after his broke in the 1970(?) Sebring 12 hrs. He went on to win the race after the leading 917 broke and out raced the McQueen/Revson 908. Mario called it one of his greatest victories. (He got fed up with the PA announcer talking about Steve McQueen all the time, when Revvie was doing 90% of the driving because McQueen broke his foot)

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#12 TheStranger

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 04:13

Originally posted by LotusElise
It was happening in the Nurburgring 24 Hours last year. A couple of drivers are in the results list in two different cars (can't remember which ones).
Obviously some regs allow it but not others.

I know the BMW team utilized it in 2004 with I think Hans Stuck, he was in both the 1st and 2nd place cars at the Ring.

Dunno if they did it again in 05 (when Boris Said was one of the winning drivers).

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#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 05:06

In 1977 when Allan Moffat and Colin Bond were in a dominant position in their Falcons at Bathurst, co-drivers being Jacky Ickx and Allan Hamilton respectively, Moffat is said to have offered to swap places with Bond for the final stint...

The result would have been that both would have driven the winning car, irrespective of which finished first. Or which finished, for that matter.

Peter Brock, of course, switched cars in one of the Bahurst events and it's been an uproar ever since among his detractors that he shouldn't have been allowed to do it. Generally the cars were cross-entered in the big teams so they could, so when Brock's car holed a radiator he was able to jump into Harvey's car and sprint to a win. Along with Perkins, of course.

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#14 harryglorydays

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 16:41

In many cases, (at least in the 50s and 60s) the teams would list all the drivers on a team on the entry list for each car, with primary (assigned) drivers first and alternate (primary drivers from other team entries) last. This way they could switch and swap as desired. In any case, it doesn't seem that the organizers cared too much, as long as the driver was entered in that race by that team. I ran across this when I did my book on the 1970 Sebring (as mentioned above) when Mario took over the #21 512 - Forgheri didn't seem to have any qualms about doing this. I also ran across this in my (soon to be published) book on the 1965 Sebring where Phil Hill took over for Lew Spencer when the latter was overcome by heat. Hill's GT-40 had retired and he finished in a Cobra Daytona coupe.

In any case, Janos has the answer. Chime in!

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#15 ensign14

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 17:15

Originally posted by James Page
Martin Brundle did the same when he won at Le Mans in 1990 (?). He went out in the 'hare' car to break the Porsches, then took Salazar's place in another Jaguar.

Poor Eliseo, who had been kept back for later, had to drive the broken-down Jag for some desultory laps. He received an Autosport award for his sportsmanship in not whingeing to high heaven about it. Jaguar wanted a British winner of Le Mans, but I'd've liked Eliseo to have got something on his CV that Piquet had not...

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#16 Catalina Park

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:16

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...... so when Brock's car holed a radiator.....

Did the con-rod go that far? :cool:

It want bang, no wait, it went BANG.

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#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 09:09

My mistake... I have memories of seeing a radiator changed, but it musn't have been that time...

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#18 Amaroo Park

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:02

Wasn't the coolant leak in 1980! The year he punted the Country Dealer Team Gemini off the track

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#19 Sharman

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:28

Can't remember who it was at Bathurst but somebody lost it on the mountain and when asked by the TV interviewer "Was something wrong with the car?" replied " Indeed there was! It was totally and absolutely out of bloody control"