Changes to traditional circuits

be nice with me, this is not a place i come and post often (lurk and learn tho)

anyway whilst sitting bored in work today i was looking at some stats on forix and looking at the old circuits and a couple of questions came to me
so apologies if they have already been covered as im very sure they have

what tracks that have been used in f1 have had the most and least changes made to them (im obviously excluding the newer tracks like bahrain and malaysian) but looking to concentrate on say monza etc
using monza as an example i can see from the circuit diagrams on Forix that monza hasnt changed *that* much

The main changes at Monza are the chicanes; the first alterations came in 1972 with a left-right wiggle prior to the Curva Grande. There might have been something added at Ascari that year too, I can't remember. Other chicanes were subsequently added around the track, and the end of the start/finish straight has seen a few different layouts at over the years.

Monaco isn't massively different; the area which has changed the most is from Tabac to the Virage Anthony Nogues (formerly the Gasometer hairpin). The addition of the section around the former Piscine in 1973 (I think), which also created Rascasse, was the single biggest alteration I'd say (not really counting all the different chicanes after the tunnel). I suppose that makes it quite a lot different, really...

Aside from the post-1994 dogleg between Tamburello and Villeneuve, plus the similar - earlier - changes to the Variante Bassa, Imola is pretty much as it was when it opened in 1971.

At Monza, Curva Grande was pulled in away from the wall in 1994 making it a bit tighter.

I didn't realise that the Rivazza corners were reprofiled a few years ago at Imola, must have been the same time as the Aqua Minerali chicane was taken out.

Weren't there some changes to the Lesmos as well - or was that just increasing the run-off area?

Interesting topic. Most F1 tracks seem to have undergone some changes in recent years. Melbourne I think is identical to when it opened in 1996 (I know this is TNF and I know Albert Park has long been used, but I am talking about the modern FIA F1 Championship!). Incredibly that's quite rare.

2006 Tracks

Malaysia - no changes, first GP 1999

Bahrain - no changes, first GP 2004

Melbourne - no changes, first GP 1996

Imola - big rework after 1994 - Tamburello, Villeneuve, Acque Minerale, Rivazza

Nurburgring - new first section input a few years back, lots of slight alterations to the last chicane. Also it is slightly different to the version used for the German GP up to 1976!

Barcelona - changed back chicance after 1994, recent rework to last 2 corners I think

Monaco - I think last change was the new chicane back in 1986. Other than that, the early 1970s changes outlined by Twinny. Overall, little real change since 1929.

Silverstone - big rework after 1990 - since then various corners reprofiled - Abbey after 1994, Stowe, Luffield etc all redone along with Copse. Before 1990 largely same circuit since 1950 - just Woodcote chicance changes after 1973 and 1985.

Montreal - can't think of major work. Too much water around! They moved the pits around but beyond that I can't think of big changes since 1978.

Indy - only used since 2000. I think they have made a few slight alterations

Magny Cours - Lycee section reworked for 2004

Hockeheim - Tilked after 2001. Before that few changes to chicanes - Ostkurve altered after Depailler's accident in 1980.

Hungary - First corner altered in 2003 I think. Otherwise same as 1986 except they removed a silly squiggle that was original put in when the constructions workers stumbled across a spring after the 2nd corner.

Turkey - first used 2005

Monza - already detailed. Chicances since 70s, reprofiled over time. Lesmos also changed. Can't change track much due to environmental lobby.

Suzuka - no major changes since 1987. Tightened 130R, redone Casio Triangle (chicance) and they squared off Degner to make 2 corners some years ago.

Shanghai - first used 2004

Interlagos - major redevelopment in 1980s - much shorter track used for GP since 1990. Can't recall any major changes since then?

Take a look at http://www.racingcircuits.net . The changes to Monza can be viewed there. If you think that there are too many chicanes now, look at the 1935-1937 incarnation of the circuit!

"Changes to traditional circuits"

I may be wrong but arent these circuits "less traditional" with any new change ?

Spa-Francorchamps is much the same now as it was when the new version came in during the mid-1980s. Apart from the Eau Rouge chicane, I think in 1994, the only major changes have been to the pit entrance and exit roads, and to run off areas.

With that in mind... Because this is such a lengthy track by modern standards, I suppose, the finishers do not go round for a lap of honour. I was quite irritated to discover this when attending the race some years ago.

Montreal was modified in 2002 - turn 1 was made 2 metres wider, making it faster, with the pitlane exit being moved so that it joined the circuit on the outside of turn 2. The hairpin was also moved forward slightly to make space for increased run-off area. The final corner wall was also moved back so that a tyre wall could be placed in front of it. This reduced the circuit length to 2.703 miles (from 2.747 miles).

Originally posted by subh
Spa-Francorchamps is much the same now as it was when the new version came in during the mid-1980s. Apart from the Eau Rouge chicane, I think in 1994, the only major changes have been to the pit entrance and exit roads, and to run off areas.

With that in mind... Because this is such a lengthy track by modern standards, I suppose, the finishers do not go round for a lap of honour. I was quite irritated to discover this when attending the race some years ago.

The bus stop area was radically changed.

Was that not done in order to accomodate the changes to the pit entrance that I mentioned? ...

Not Formula One I admit, but I seem to recall reading that Elkhart Lake has not undergone any layout modifications since it's innaugeration. Is this true? Surely there must have been some reprofiling of corners along the way...

Originally posted by subh
Spa-Francorchamps is much the same now as it was when the new version came in during the mid-1980s. Apart from the Eau Rouge chicane, I think in 1994, the only major changes have been to the pit entrance and exit roads, and to run off areas.

With that in mind... Because this is such a lengthy track by modern standards, I suppose, the finishers do not go round for a lap of honour. I was quite irritated to discover this when attending the race some years ago.

The exit from the La Source hairpin has been widened with the remval of some markers. A minor change.

Don't forget that before the banking was built at Monza, the South Turn (Turns?) were in fact 2 pretty sharp, more or less 90 degree right handers with a short straight in between.

Vastly different to the current Parabolica.

Hungary - First corner altered in 2003 I think. Otherwise same as 1986 except they removed a silly squiggle that was original put in when the constructions workers stumbled across a spring after the 2nd corner.

Also changed some of the corners near the end as part of the same 2003 upgrade.

thanks for the replys some interesting stuff there

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Don't forget that before the banking was built at Monza, the South Turn (Turns?) were in fact 2 pretty sharp, more or less 90 degree right handers with a short straight in between.

Vastly different to the current Parabolica.

Yep, it appears they were more like Lesmos... And I like Silverstone's original layout, before all those changes took place.

Originally posted by Wolf

And I like Silverstone's original layout, before all those changes took place.

Do you mean the pre 1991 version (with Woodcote chicanes) or the 1948 version which used the runways rather than the perimeter road? IIRC, the 1949 version, while similar to the version in use between 1950-1975 had a weird chicane at Club.

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Montreal was modified in 2002 - turn 1 was made 2 metres wider, making it faster, with the pitlane exit being moved so that it joined the circuit on the outside of turn 2. The hairpin was also moved forward slightly to make space for increased run-off area. The final corner wall was also moved back so that a tyre wall could be placed in front of it. This reduced the circuit length to 2.703 miles (from 2.747 miles).

Also at Montreal the pits used to be after the hairpin and the current pit straight had a dog-leg in it untill then.
The Casino ess-bends after the hairpin/old start line area were eased considerably in the early 90s, I think, prior to that they were quite a significant high speed sequence, now they are more of a kink in the straight.
The chicane onto the current start finish was a lot more open untill about 1989 - didn't Warwick almost flip his Arrows over the kerbs there in 88 ?- taken in about 4th gear or something similar.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Originally posted by mikedeering

Do you mean the pre 1991 version (with Woodcote chicanes)...

There was another version which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet; the 1987 (left-right, IIRC) dog-leg which appeared between Abbey and Woodcote. I seem to remember this coincided (or allowed) the doing-away of the chicane.

Mike, I meant the version that was basically unchanged from '50 to '75 (and I hastily used the word 'original' without checking if there were any versions before that )...

A modern Grand Prix car would get around the 1950-75 version of Silverstone in a ridiculously short time at a ludicrously high speed.

IIRC, Rosberg's fastest ever lap was about, 66 seconds and 160+ mph.

Modern downforce would make most of those corners virtually flat - or at least, they would have been up to the end of 2005.

The British Grand Prix might have surpassed the '58 Belgian race for short duration.

Originally posted by Barry Boor
A modern Grand Prix car would get around the 1950-75 version of Silverstone in a ridiculously short time at a ludicrously high speed.

IIRC, Rosberg's fastest ever lap was about, 66 seconds and 160+ mph.

Modern downforce would make most of those corners virtually flat - or at least, they would have been up to the end of 2005.

The British Grand Prix might have surpassed the '58 Belgian race for short duration.

Piquet lapped in around 1 minute 3 sec. during testing in '86. Autosport quoted Nelson saying to the team something like 'If you really want me to go for it, i can get under a minute, no problem!'

Q.E.D

So basically Interlagos is the longest running in unchanged form since 1990.

MikeDeering - Monaco had the harbour reprofiled a couple of years ago 2003 iirc Tabac to the Rascasse is changed with the swimming pool entrance faster and the exit from the swimming pool being reprofiled to make the pits wider ( and horribly give run off!!)

Macau Guia is unchanged since 1958 I think ( except moving the start in 1992) the only change that ever happened is that the Melco hairpin was made less tight (yes seriously) in 1957

Of course the Indy oval is unchanged since 1911 and Milwaukee is unchanged since 1903 layout wise anyway.

Although used only a few times by F1, Dijon still exists in its 77 to 84 French GP shape and if no change is implied by the Ratel gang, will host this year an FIA-GT race in September, 22 years after this last GP. That could make it a good basis for comparison, although the laptimes of the turbo f1 are unreachable by GT1's.
Anyway all cars running on this track since 1977 ran on the same layout.

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Don't forget that before the banking was built at Monza, the South Turn (Turns?) were in fact 2 pretty sharp, more or less 90 degree right handers with a short straight in between.

Vastly different to the current Parabolica.

The Vedano corners I think, Barry, as tested by Fangio, Marimon, Ascari & Farina in1953 ?

Can I chuck the Osterriechring in compared with the A1 Ring. I belive the only bits shared were the start-finish straight, a bit of the run toward the BoschKurve,a bit exiting the Boschkurve and the bit from Johanssons deer incident to the Rindtkurve

Originally posted by LB
Of course the Indy oval is unchanged since 1911 and Milwaukee is unchanged since 1903 layout wise anyway.

Indianapolis is unchanged with respect to its planform and banking, still a 2.5 mile oval, having two 5/8 mile straights north and south, and two 1/8 mile straights going east and west, connected with 4 equal turns of 1/4 mile each, banked at 9-degrees 11 minuties. Something like 19" of asphalt (itself a mix of asphalt with crushed Kentucky Limestone--a very hard grade of limestone, known for its very sharp edges when crushed) cover the nearly 3.5 million heavy paving bricks used to create the first pavement there. The concrete walls were redesigned after the tragic 1932 500, the original walls through the turns having been built exactly vertical, making them a sort of ramp upward in comparison to the banked turn surface. In addition, the original brick surface had about 3-4 feet of the racing surface next to the walls in the turns, banked even steeper. The new walls built for the 1933 event were made perpendicular to the track surface itself, making them lean inward at 90-degrees to the race track itself (and until the construction of the current walls, the old, 1911 concrete wall sections still stood just to the outside of the one being used!)

After the 1973 500, which saw Salt Walther's McLaren climb the outside wall just past the start/finish line, that section of wall was raised, by adding more concrete to the top of the older wall. Then, in the summer of 1992, in preparation for the coming of Nascar to the Speedway in 1994, the entire wall system was torn out (Al Unser Jr bought the section of 4th turn wall he'd hit in his failed bid to beat Emmo a year or two earlier, and installed it along the driveway to his house in New Mexico), and replaced by a much higher wall, for the first time in steel-reinforced concrete, which wall is still used today, covered with the SAFER barrier on the track side.

Also, for the 1993 race, the Speedway installed the acceleration lanes on the infield side of turns one and two, and a similar deceleration lane on the inside of turns three and four, again with Nascar's requirements in mind.

The pits were first revised in the summer of 1956, the old concept of pits open directly to the front straight being scrapped completely, and a new pit lane farther inboard into the infield, separated from the straightaway by a concrete wall, and a strip of grass. A single pit entrance was made in the new inside wall, which itself jutted out at about a 45-degree angle from the infield fence just south of the exit of turn four (which wall section meant the fatal crashes of both Dave McDonald (1964) and Swede Savage (1973). Beginning in 1933, the brick surface was paved over with asphalt, beginning with the 4 turns. Brick paving tends to become very uneven over time in this part of the US, due to the tremendous freeze-thaw cycles of winter, the only solution other than "blacktopping" it (or replacing it completely) being to pull up the bricks, clean, smooth, and re-pack the sand base underneath, then relaying each brick by hand--deemed far too expensive by the then-owner of the track, Edward V. Rickenbacker, the US WW-1 flying ace, and former race driver himself. Over the next few years, the entire track was asphalted, until by 1946, only the front stretch and the original pits remained as exposed, original brick. Finally, in the summer of 1961, Anton Hulman Jr. had the entire front stretch covered in asphalt, leaving only a 3 foot strip of brick at the start-finish line. For a number of years, this "Yard of Brick" was simply the original 1911 brick surface, the asphalt simply tapered down to expose them. However, with the almost yearly recoating of the track in the 1970's and beyond, this was impractical, so the "Yard of Brick" was recreated, using original pavers from 1911, encased in a steel channel, set in a concrete trench, and lifted out each winter and then replaced by crane each spring. This also allows for the brick start-finish line to be raised whenever there is a change in the track's surface. To reduce the cost of recoating the track surface, anymore the Speedway, when repaved, is ground down, and the old asphalt recycled, just as is done on streets and highways--in fact, the asphalt paving industry used this system at Indianapolis, to promote its use by cities, states and the Federal government in resurfacing public roads.

Art

Originally posted by LB
Of course the Indy oval is unchanged since 1911 and Milwaukee is unchanged since 1903 layout wise anyway.

Hmmm... Were there any changes to the road course when it was re-opened a few years back?

I'm talking about Milwaukee of course, not that abomination at Indy.

It took a moment or two to locate the best thread for this post, but I think I have found it.

Watching the Le Mans qualifying last night I was very sad to see what they have done to that tiny bit of road between the Esses and Tertre Rouge.

It seems to me that there was not a great deal of alteration made to that little section until this year. Now, it looks just like the preceeding half mile or so and all the character is wiped away.

In fact, it looks so different to how I remember it that I wasn't even sure it was the same piece of road, but I guess it is.

How long before the Mulsanne/Indianapolis stretch becomes a beach with a road running through it?

Originally posted by Barry Boor
It took a moment or two to locate the best thread for this post, but I think I have found it.

Watching the Le Mans qualifying last night I was very sad to see what they have done to that tiny bit of road between the Esses and Tertre Rouge.

It seems to me that there was not a great deal of alteration made to that little section until this year. Now, it looks just like the preceeding half mile or so and all the character is wiped away.

In fact, it looks so different to how I remember it that I wasn't even sure it was the same piece of road, but I guess it is.

How long before the Mulsanne/Indianapolis stretch becomes a beach with a road running through it?

Barry I remember going to Le Mans in 89 for the first time and feeling I knew the place from all the film and photos I had seen. It was comfortable, familiar. The old pits, the terraces, the stands, the paddock, the rather ramshackle nature of so much of it. Wonderfully evocative.It reeked history, tradition and everything that I had expected somehow.

Went back in 1996, new pits, chicanes on the Mulsanne , new car parking areas that destroyed the atmosphere of the old ones, debris fences in the spectator enclosures, concrete walls, huge gravel traps - generally massive changes all along the whole section from the Porsche Curves to the Esses . Such a total disappointment. The whole section looked like any other modern autodrome. Soul-less. I wanted to be at Le Mans not Paul Ricard!

Went back again in 2000 and it was even worse, bigger run offs, more concrete walls, more fences.... I actually didn't want to go back after that, and I havn't . It just isn't the same place I had grown up aching to visit. I'm just glad I went in 89 before the rot set in.

Originally posted by Barry Boor
A modern Grand Prix car would get around the 1950-75 version of Silverstone in a ridiculously short time at a ludicrously high speed.

You say that as if it were a bad thing, Barry.

Seeing Hamilton enter Woodcote the far side of 200mph would be worth seeing once. Even with the grandstand moved back as far as Silverstone Village...

Well, yes, I see your point, Rich.

BUT, at the sort of speeds a modern car would achieve around the old Silverstone, the Grand Prix would be over in about an hour..... or maybe even less.

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Well, yes, I see your point, Rich.

BUT, at the sort of speeds a modern car would achieve around the old Silverstone, the Grand Prix would be over in about an hour..... or maybe even less.

Surely the correct way to go is to reduce the speed of the cars and remove all the driver aids so that it is the skill of the driver that wins the day. Thus the old circuits would be viable and we might start to see some racing rather than a procession that waits for the pit stop strategy to kick in!

Originally posted by Stephen W


Surely the correct way to go is to reduce the speed of the cars and remove all the driver aids so that it is the skill of the driver that wins the day. Thus the old circuits would be viable and we might start to see some racing rather than a procession that waits for the pit stop strategy to kick in!

O/T (a bit)

Sounds like the NorthWest 200 I watched a download of recently.... OK it was for Bikes but the 9 mile closed-road circuit with two Mulsanne-like straights led to some un-be-bloody-lieveable RACING. Bikes slipstreaming one another 2-3 times on one straight at 195mph between the hedges and lamp posts. God it was scary stuff... but what a bunch of heroes!
No pit stops, no aerodynamics, no rider aids, no 'strategy' except flat out and SOOOOO much overtaking!

I'm still in shock...where's my pills....?

No race on a 'normal' track will ever look quite the same again !

Is there an overarching reason that encompasses why most of these changes were instituted?

It became the norm for racing authority - in most cases the FIA or previously its CSI - to act (or react) before local or national politicians might feel the need - or perceive some advantage - in doing so. The motivation was to don the armour of being able to say "Oh we have already taken measures to correct/obviate that danger" before being asked, or forced, to do so. I believe it's called keeping one step ahead of the Feds.

Secondly - there are always commissions to be earned from doing deals. If no deals are done, no commissions become due. Therefore merely maintaining the status quo is unacceptably unprofitable. Change for change's sake equals income - for some one - for Gawd's sake.

DCN

Uh huh. I suspected as much. Thanks for the confirmation, Mr. Nye.

Hope no-one minds me plugging my own stuff, but this covers most of the major changes made to the tracks since 1950:

F1 circuits history 1950-2008 (parts 1-16)

Sadly, Steve, no matter what might be done to the cars from now on, precious few of the circuits are left in their 1960s/70s configurations.

You couldn't run 16 championship races at the Nurburgring! Then again.....

Brands Hatch must be one of the relatively least-changed, at least since 1975 when the Bottom Straight was straightened - the apex of Paddock was pulled in a bit, Bottom Bend and Dingle Dell Corner made sharper, and, sadly, the old grandstand demolished................otherwise Pete Aron would still recognise it!

Paul M

Originally posted by A E Anderson


Indianapolis is unchanged with respect to its planform and banking, still a 2.5 mile oval, having two 5/8 mile straights north and south, and two 1/8 mile straights going east and west, connected with 4 equal turns of 1/4 mile each, banked at 9-degrees 11 minuties. Something like 19" of asphalt (itself a mix of asphalt with crushed Kentucky Limestone--a very hard grade of limestone, known for its very sharp edges when crushed) cover the nearly 3.5 million heavy paving bricks used to create the first pavement there. The concrete walls were redesigned after the tragic 1932 500, the original walls through the turns having been built exactly vertical, making them a sort of ramp upward in comparison to the banked turn surface. In addition, the original brick surface had about 3-4 feet of the racing surface next to the walls in the turns, banked even steeper. The new walls built for the 1933 event were made perpendicular to the track surface itself, making them lean inward at 90-degrees to the race track itself (and until the construction of the current walls, the old, 1911 concrete wall sections still stood just to the outside of the one being used!)

After the 1973 500, which saw Salt Walther's McLaren climb the outside wall just past the start/finish line, that section of wall was raised, by adding more concrete to the top of the older wall. Then, in the summer of 1992, in preparation for the coming of Nascar to the Speedway in 1994, the entire wall system was torn out (Al Unser Jr bought the section of 4th turn wall he'd hit in his failed bid to beat Emmo a year or two earlier, and installed it along the driveway to his house in New Mexico), and replaced by a much higher wall, for the first time in steel-reinforced concrete, which wall is still used today, covered with the SAFER barrier on the track side.

Also, for the 1993 race, the Speedway installed the acceleration lanes on the infield side of turns one and two, and a similar deceleration lane on the inside of turns three and four, again with Nascar's requirements in mind.

The pits were first revised in the summer of 1956, the old concept of pits open directly to the front straight being scrapped completely, and a new pit lane farther inboard into the infield, separated from the straightaway by a concrete wall, and a strip of grass. A single pit entrance was made in the new inside wall, which itself jutted out at about a 45-degree angle from the infield fence just south of the exit of turn four (which wall section meant the fatal crashes of both Dave McDonald (1964) and Swede Savage (1973). Beginning in 1933, the brick surface was paved over with asphalt, beginning with the 4 turns. Brick paving tends to become very uneven over time in this part of the US, due to the tremendous freeze-thaw cycles of winter, the only solution other than "blacktopping" it (or replacing it completely) being to pull up the bricks, clean, smooth, and re-pack the sand base underneath, then relaying each brick by hand--deemed far too expensive by the then-owner of the track, Edward V. Rickenbacker, the US WW-1 flying ace, and former race driver himself. Over the next few years, the entire track was asphalted, until by 1946, only the front stretch and the original pits remained as exposed, original brick. Finally, in the summer of 1961, Anton Hulman Jr. had the entire front stretch covered in asphalt, leaving only a 3 foot strip of brick at the start-finish line. For a number of years, this "Yard of Brick" was simply the original 1911 brick surface, the asphalt simply tapered down to expose them. However, with the almost yearly recoating of the track in the 1970's and beyond, this was impractical, so the "Yard of Brick" was recreated, using original pavers from 1911, encased in a steel channel, set in a concrete trench, and lifted out each winter and then replaced by crane each spring. This also allows for the brick start-finish line to be raised whenever there is a change in the track's surface. To reduce the cost of recoating the track surface, anymore the Speedway, when repaved, is ground down, and the old asphalt recycled, just as is done on streets and highways--in fact, the asphalt paving industry used this system at Indianapolis, to promote its use by cities, states and the Federal government in resurfacing public roads.

Art

Art

Thanks for that info.

I would like to add that INDY has changed dramatically over the years. The track and length may be the same....but its height is taller than ever before!

Height you say?

The amount of grandstands, and their height, has changed wind direction and wind speed at the track. I'll go back to the early 50's for comparision. In the Dynamic/ Ralph Carmargo narrated films, say 1953 and Vukeys first win, there were no grandstands in turn 3 or 4. The front straight and into turn 1 is where the main grandstands were, not as tall as todays and further back from the track...with a break in the short chute between turn 1 and 2 and then that single grandstand grouping in turn 2.

Now?

Except for the backstretch, nearly all the track is surround by stands. I feel Its probably only a matter of time until they enclose the whole track with stands.

Does anyone else have any feelings on the changes at Indy over the years?

Bring back The Pagoda!

Originally posted by Flat Black
Bring back The Pagoda!

serious answer here... as a retro look?

it would look great too these eyes cause I never saw it in person!

My Dad said sightlines in the 1940's were excellant in the 1st grandstand in the front stretch out of turn 4. You could follow the cars coming from turn 4 all the way down into turn 1.

It WAS a very cool look and the Speedway certainly has the money to retrofit the current tower. I somehow doubt they'll do it, though. With each passing day there are fewer and fewer men and women who would even recognize it.

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Hope no-one minds me plugging my own stuff, but this covers most of the major changes made to the tracks since 1950:

F1 circuits history 1950-2008 (parts 1-16)

Very odd looking map of the Bremgarten !! I can see the Wohlenrampe section but that's all

Not a F1 track, but Limerock has a new configuration and variatons after 50 years.

Originally posted by tyjak
Not a F1 track, but Limerock has a new configuration and variatons after 50 years.

Still looks the same on the map they show on their website, although it does mention improvements.

Originally posted by Barry Boor

The British Grand Prix might have surpassed the '58 Belgian race for short duration.

I know you are a stickler for facts Barry so I think there's shurely shome mishtake here...

A quick google revealed the 1988 Italian GP to be 1 hour 17 minutes 39.744 seconds, and the 58 Belgian GP to be 1 hour 37.063. Am I missing something ? By the way, I'm not suggesting that Monza 88 was shortest, just short (in time)!

Off topic I know, but on the subject of race duration it has always amazed me how the drivers spent three hours driving around Monaco in the 50s before seeing the chequered flag...

Rob