Just struck me that Michael Scumacher is in his 11th season as the undisputed no. 1 driver with Ferrari - surely a record to add to all the others.
(Quite apart from his having been World champion twice with Benetton prior to this, having lead that team for 4 years.)
Has anybody else ever been near ? Ickx was a clear team leader at Ferrari for 4 years, Stewart at Tyrrell for 6 years, Clark at Lotus for 6 years, Jones at Williams for 4 years and everybody else for less than that - either due to short careers at the top, to changing teams or to being challenged inside the team.
In fact, can we think of anybody else having driven in Grand Prix racing for 16 years - driving for only two teams ? Not even Caracciola comes close to this kind of staying power.
Staying power as team leader
Started by
Mohican
, Apr 19 2006 12:33
20 replies to this topic
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#2
James Page
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 12:47
Schumacher has driven for three teams: Jordan, Benetton and Ferrari. And as for staying in Grand Prix Racing for 16 years, didn't Graham Hill do the same (1959-1975??), or is my memory letting me down? Patrese must have been close, too.
Obviously, neither of them were team leaders for anything like the amount of time Michael has been, but I was trying to answer the last part of your post first!
Obviously, neither of them were team leaders for anything like the amount of time Michael has been, but I was trying to answer the last part of your post first!
#3
Andretti Fan
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 12:55
Wasn't it almost 18 years for Patrese. ( 76 to 93).
#5
ian senior
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 13:17
Originally posted by James Page
Schumacher has driven for three teams: Jordan, Benetton and Ferrari. And as for staying in Grand Prix Racing for 16 years, didn't Graham Hill do the same (1959-1975??), or is my memory letting me down? Patrese must have been close, too.
Obviously, neither of them were team leaders for anything like the amount of time Michael has been, but I was trying to answer the last part of your post first!
Graham Hill started F1 in 1958 so that makes it even longer (and ya boo sucks to you, Schumacher - I'm all in favour of anything that reduces claims that he is the greatest driver of all time). And when you consider the attrition rate of drivers in that period, it's a remarkable achievement to have survived that long.
#6
Greatest
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 13:48
Has Michael ever really had a team-mate able to challenge him for the team leadership? Nope... He has always had a team-mate inferior to him. And about Graham: how could it have been possible for Graham to be Nr. 1 when there was someone like Jimmy in the same team...;)
Senna is also an interesting question. Senna had, for example, Prost as an equal Nr. 1 team-mate. Therefore I have to ask, what if there hadn't been Alain around in the same team as Senna...
Senna is also an interesting question. Senna had, for example, Prost as an equal Nr. 1 team-mate. Therefore I have to ask, what if there hadn't been Alain around in the same team as Senna...
#7
James Page
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 14:20
I wasn't suggesting that Hill had been a team leader for that time - merely that he'd been around for a while! 
Senna was certainly number one at Toleman and Lotus, and then McLaren from 1990-93. As for 1988-89, I think it's to Senna's credit (and Prost's) that they went head-to-head as team-mates. It's a string (one of many, I think) that's missing from Schumacher's bow. Unless, of course, Raikkonen ends up at Ferrari next year and Michael doesn't retire…
Senna was certainly number one at Toleman and Lotus, and then McLaren from 1990-93. As for 1988-89, I think it's to Senna's credit (and Prost's) that they went head-to-head as team-mates. It's a string (one of many, I think) that's missing from Schumacher's bow. Unless, of course, Raikkonen ends up at Ferrari next year and Michael doesn't retire…
#8
Twin Window
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 19:32
He made his debut at Monaco, 1977 IIRC.Originally posted by Andretti Fan
Wasn't it almost 18 years for Patrese. ( 76 to 93).
#9
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 19:36
Has anyone driven through more changes than Patrese? In the sense that the evolution over any random 10 years of his career, vastly outweighs the changes of Schumachers 10 years. F1 of 96 vs 2006 is revolutionary, not evolutionary. But the difference between 1980 and 1990 
#10
Twin Window
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 19:48
Good point. But you could also argue that the difference between 1977 (flat bottomed, with limited/primative downforce) and 1980/1 ('ground-effects') was an even greater change...Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But the difference between 1980 and 1990
#11
D-Type
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 21:45
Louis Chiron, from Bugatti Type 35 in 1927 to Lancia D50 in 1955Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Has anyone driven through more changes than Patrese? In the sense that the evolution over any random 10 years of his career, vastly outweighs the changes of Schumachers 10 years. F1 of 96 vs 2006 is revolutionary, not evolutionary. But the difference between 1980 and 1990
At a pinch, Maurice Trintignant - started with an old Bugatti, drove at least 10 makes of GP car from Simca-Gordini to BRM P57.
#12
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 21:58
The Boy?
HWM, ERA, Connaught, Cooper-Alta, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Vanwall, BRM, Cooper-Climax, Walker-Climax, Lotus, Ferguson .... and almost a Ferrari!
HWM, ERA, Connaught, Cooper-Alta, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Vanwall, BRM, Cooper-Climax, Walker-Climax, Lotus, Ferguson .... and almost a Ferrari!
#13
ensign14
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 22:19
I'd've thought Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier...front to rear engine, then no real downforce to massive amounts from wings.Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Has anyone driven through more changes than Patrese? In the sense that the evolution over any random 10 years of his career, vastly outweighs the changes of Schumachers 10 years.
#14
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 22:27
Plus 4WD!Originally posted by ensign14
I'd've thought Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier...front to rear engine, then no real downforce to massive amounts from wings.
#15
D-Type
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 23:05
and Cooper-BRM - I don't think we can include the Scarab as that was just a test. Did the Walker-Climax ever race in period?Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Boy?
HWM, ERA, Connaught, Cooper-Alta, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Vanwall, BRM, Cooper-Climax, Walker-Climax, Lotus, Ferguson .... and almost a Ferrari!
What about Louis Wagner ? From before the first Grand Prix to the 'almost modern' 1926 Delage
#16
stuartbrs
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 00:30
Ive always thought that it would have been Mario Andretti that drove through more changes in open wheeler racing than anyone..
From the Lotus 49 to the turbo charged champcars of the early 90`s... included along the way are ground effects with Lotus and a turbo Ferrari 126 ....
From the Lotus 49 to the turbo charged champcars of the early 90`s... included along the way are ground effects with Lotus and a turbo Ferrari 126 ....
#17
Mohican
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 07:45
With all respect to Moss, Hill and Patrese, they do not qualify for comparison to Schumacher in this particular regard.
I did not say, nor intend to say, that Scumacher's record was more admirable than those of others (rather less so, perhaps, given the particular circumstances he has been allowed to create in his teams); personally much more impressed by Andretti's ability to win in every category - also over a very long time.
I did not say, nor intend to say, that Scumacher's record was more admirable than those of others (rather less so, perhaps, given the particular circumstances he has been allowed to create in his teams); personally much more impressed by Andretti's ability to win in every category - also over a very long time.
#18
Maldwyn
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:11
Originally posted by Twin Window
He made his debut at Monaco, 1977 IIRC.
Graham Hill in particular raced right through the national racing colours -> the rise and influence of sponsorship. A period that saw very different attitutes and approaches to motorsport. Patrese began just a couple of years after Hill departed, but by then sponsorship was firmly established. A turbo was just about to make the first tentative steps into F1, and ground effects were in their infancy. Former championship winners with Hill, BRM, were on their last legs, and manufacurers (as we see dominate now) had barely woken up to the marketing potential of F1.Originally posted by ensign14
I'd've thought Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier...front to rear engine, then no real downforce to massive amounts from wings.
#19
Mohican
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Posted 21 April 2006 - 07:27
Jacky Ickx made his F1 debut in 1968, driving a Ferrari devoid even of wings - and finished his F1 career in a Ligier JS11 "ground effect" car in 1979.
Mario Andretti started with a Lotus 49 , also in 1968, and finished with a Ferrari 126 C2 flat-bottomed turbo in 1982.
Agree that anyone who debuted in the late 60's will have seen the fastest technological change of all; development during the 15 years from 1970 to 1985 was just incredible - whereas what is the greatest tech change we have seen since ? The raised nose ? Barge boards ? Reintroduction of of atmo engines and grooved tyres ? Narrow track cars ? Driver "aids" ?
I would nominate active suspension as the real technological watershed - if a stillborn one, effectively. The other one being carbonfibre, which has improved safety immensely.
Mario Andretti started with a Lotus 49 , also in 1968, and finished with a Ferrari 126 C2 flat-bottomed turbo in 1982.
Agree that anyone who debuted in the late 60's will have seen the fastest technological change of all; development during the 15 years from 1970 to 1985 was just incredible - whereas what is the greatest tech change we have seen since ? The raised nose ? Barge boards ? Reintroduction of of atmo engines and grooved tyres ? Narrow track cars ? Driver "aids" ?
I would nominate active suspension as the real technological watershed - if a stillborn one, effectively. The other one being carbonfibre, which has improved safety immensely.
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#20
Roger Clark
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Posted 21 April 2006 - 18:24
It was 1967 in a Cooper-Maserati, but that doesn't affect your main point.Originally posted by Mohican
Jacky Ickx made his F1 debut in 1968, driving a Ferrari devoid even of wings - and finished his F1 career in a Ligier JS11 "ground effect" car in 1979.
#21
Mohican
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Posted 21 April 2006 - 18:31
You're right - forgot about the Cooper. Sorry.
