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De Tomaso Pantera - how successful was it really?

Started by simonlewisbooks , Aug 28 2007 09:45

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32 replies to this topic

#1 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 09:45

In the current Racingdeal.com newletter a feature on the De Tomaso Pantera reads...

"The Gr3 cars were developed on demands from the European Racers. ....and the Pantera won literally hundreds of races in Europe."

"Hundreds".....??? Sounds most unlikely to me...

Great looking (and sounding) car but I always thought of it as very much an underdog compared to the massed ranks of Porsche 911s . How many races did the DeTomaso actually win? Any ideas?

#2 Frank de Jong

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:05

Group 3 was not really popular and races must have taken place at national level only, Italy for instance. In group 4, the Pantera won 3 races for the GT championship in 1972-1973 but was trashed by Porsche on all other occasions. In Belgium a Pantera was raced which won some races. But 100's? Don't think so.

#3 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:13

100 races ? i dont think so !

Just have a look here :
http://forums.motorl...ead.php?t=27692
and here :
http://www.forum-aut...sujet378170.htm

Mr "Pantera Gr4" can maybe answer to you !

#4 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:15

Hundreds ? Without checking my EUGT result .....thats not possible.....and its very much wrong.........they won a few if I remember correct........having difficulties with reliability....and beating Porsches!
1972 EUGT Trophy , 9 races : Jacquemin/Claude Dubois 2,2-Herbert Muller for himself 1 win and a string of ret. 3 others with lesser or no placing.
1973 EU FIA GTCup,9 races : 2 wins for the works in 3 starts by Parkes and Regazzoni. 2 3rds and a 5th by 3 private entries + a string of mostly retirements for 7-9 others private ones.
1974 EUGT, 7 races : No sign.app. by any Tomasos , private very few and retiring.
1975 EUGT, 7 races : More this year , 1 5th , minor placings and rets.
1976EUGT , 7 races : Again only privates , 3 in all , no results.
Please note that none ever did a full season !
IMO Tomaso also never did any impact in long distance racing. The hundreds of wins must have been on a Scalextric track !
By the way there is one "standard" Pantera here in town hidden in a garage ! Taken out once a year , what a sound!!!!!!

#5 Darren Galpin

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 11:03

One did race with some success in the British GT championship in the early 1990s driven by Andy Wallace. I was marshalling at Thruxton when he was dicing for the lead and hit a pheasant at speed out the back. Made a nice mess of the windscreen, and he finished 2nd I believe. He was asked to come to race control later to pick up the pheasant.

#6 simon drabble

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 11:39

like the Bizzerini's - never that successful in period but people and technology are waking up to their potential ability and given the couple I know being developped I would expect to see several out in Group 4 racing as well as Tour auto's etc in the near future being driven very competitively.
The interesting thing about Bizzers though is that they seem quite hard to sell for decent money whereas cars that were quick in period (like Cobra's) seem to fly out the showroom, I wonder if the same will be true of Pantera's....

#7 D-Type

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:20

There's a bit more information here but "hundreds of wins" - no way.

#8 Sharman

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 13:30

There was a chap(name forgotten)who ran a Pantera in the Italian Intermarque Series, when we were running the Abarth in the v. early 90s, and he won each time he appeared but club level only. I suspect that as a not too expensive source of poke they might have won a fair number of races at a lower level but at International level......... Which brings up another quesion, the Mangusta was never properly developed but if it had been would have eaten the Cobras. Discuss

#9 Keir

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 13:45

Very good looking car however many wins !!

#10 simon drabble

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 14:06

in either early gr4 or plain form I agree pretty - in its later incarnations with wings etc it looked like a rather nasty kit car!

#11 john aston

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 16:40

At club level in UK a yellow example was campaigned by Chris Meek- with some success ISTR.But it was near invisble on International scene surely ?

#12 philippe7

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 16:46

Originally posted by john aston
At club level in UK a yellow example was campaigned by Chris Meek- with some success ISTR.

Indeed !

#13 rl1856

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 17:36

Several months ago, I had a coversation with an owner of a Pantera. He had personally restored the car to race worthy, but still drivable condition. His opinion was that the car was never fully developed in period and that it needed another year of sorting before it was released to the public. The main problem areas seemed to be the transmission and rear suspension geometry and mounting points. He said he corrected both areas during his restoration and has produced a much faster and more driveable car as a result.

Just 1 mans opinion, but it does seem to coorelate to other published accounts.

Best,

Ross

#14 Cirrus

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 17:57

A great looking car, it has to be said - but the front end aerodynamics of Chris Meek's car look guaranteed to produce lift, hence the nasty wings and air dams.

#15 Pedro 917

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 19:28

There were 2 Pantera's in the Le Mans Classic Endurance race at Spa last week, one managed 2 laps, the other 3.... But it's a beautiful car!

#16 scags

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 20:29

A friend had one in the early 80's, and even dring on the street, he managed to break four or five half shafts in two years. It was also 50/50 if you or the car would overheat first.

#17 rx-guru

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 08:44

We had at least two Panteras in Rallycross also, but Group 5 cars. I remember pretty well a Dutch guy named John Sieben, who run a company called "Big Block Tuning" in Beek near Sittard. Later he moved his garage to Horn near Roermond. His Pantera had a 5800cc unit with 500 and later nearly 600bhp. However, while the Porsche 911’s of RX in those days had between 900 and 1000kg of weight Sieben’s beast had no less than 1425kg… AFAIK Sieben’s biggest success was to become the 1978 National Dutch Rallycross Champion. BTW, one of his main Dutch opponents in the late 1970s/early 1980s was André Albers (with Porsche 930 Turbo and Porsche 911 Carrera of "ALPO" = Albers’ Porsche), the flamboyant father of former Spyker Formula One pilot Christijan Albers.

#18 RS2000

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 15:43

There was one used in southern UK "single venue" stage rallying (places like Goodwood, before most of the club motorsport there was sacrificed to historic garden parties) but I don't recall any wins, only constant clutch problems.

#19 biercemountain

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 17:58

There was one that raced in IMSA that I saw at Road Atlanta in '82. Lap after lap it got noticably nervous under braking for the "Bridge Turn" at the end of the backstraight. Must have been a handful for the driver.

I saw a old documentary a while back which showed Jackie Stewart driving a yellow Pantera that was his personal street car. Must have had something to do with his relationship with Ford.

#20 Frank S

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 20:41

Not precisely on-topic with regard to "success", but there was this one at Coronado in 2005:

On the basis of that picture's appearance on flickr.com I was invited to post all my Pantera images to a group:

http://www.flickr.co...ups/436135@N25/

111 images there, now, including the one of mine.

--
Frank S
(second try; hoping it works, this time)

#21 ensign14

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 19:51

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
One did race with some success in the British GT championship in the early 1990s driven by Andy Wallace. I was marshalling at Thruxton when he was dicing for the lead and hit a pheasant at speed out the back. Made a nice mess of the windscreen, and he finished 2nd I believe. He was asked to come to race control later to pick up the pheasant.

Was it in season?

#22 flat-16

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 21:40

Although of a different variety in terms of powerplant, I wonder if there's a parallel to be had between the Pantera and the Esprit? Both wonderful and desirable road cars, but with the exception of a few class wins, the Esprit didn't set the track world alight, did it?

Justin

#23 petefenelon

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 21:55

Originally posted by flat-16
Although of a different variety in terms of powerplant, I wonder if there's a parallel to be had between the Pantera and the Esprit? Both wonderful and desirable road cars, but with the exception of a few class wins, the Esprit didn't set the track world alight, did it?

Justin

It eventually became a very good class car in IMSA Supercar (or whatever it was called back then), but that was a long time into its history!

#24 Alan Cox

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 22:15

The aforementioned Mr Meek, in colour

#25 flat-16

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 22:19

Originally posted by petefenelon

It eventually became a very good class car in IMSA Supercar (or whatever it was called back then), but that was a long time into its history!

But how much of a relation to the road car did the 'Supercar' have? Original chassis, or full space-frame? Whereas the Esprit was praised as a road car, yet didn't achieve a massive amount on the circuit, you usually see the opposite occur; cars that amounted to little in road-going form, but did pretty well on the circuit, usually as a mere silhouette of their former selves...

If sales were pretty good, Lotus wouldn't have been forced to resort to an all-out track assault. They did have an F1 team at the time... :cry:

Justin

#26 adminj

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 07:14

Hello!

I´m searching for fotos of Herbert Müller driving a Pantera on Norisring in 1972.
Can anybody help?

Grüße

Jürgen

#27 petefenelon

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 12:14

Originally posted by flat-16

But how much of a relation to the road car did the 'Supercar' have? Original chassis, or full space-frame? Whereas the Esprit was praised as a road car, yet didn't achieve a massive amount on the circuit, you usually see the opposite occur; cars that amounted to little in road-going form, but did pretty well on the circuit, usually as a mere silhouette of their former selves...

If sales were pretty good, Lotus wouldn't have been forced to resort to an all-out track assault. They did have an F1 team at the time...

Justin

Was David Mercer's Group 5 Esprit a real Lotus or a body on a racing chassis? (I know there have been "Esprits" around the British scene that were little more than old sports racers with the appropriate plastic draped over them, in the style of Tony Sugden's marvellous 'Skoda';)

I think the X180R programme was set up by the US importers pretty much at the point that the Lotus F1 team was dying ('92 or so? Doc Bundy behind the wheel?). They were based on proper Lotus chassis...

Sadly, subsequent attempts to turn the Elise into an international GT racer failed dismally whether with the Lotus twin-turbo V8, the Chevy unit later adopted, or the frankly terrifying (and terrifyingly slow) Bitter GT with a Viper engine squeezed into the 'ole that normally admitted a four-cylinder Rover ;)

#28 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 13:03

Originally posted by petefenelon

I know there have been "Esprits" around the British scene that were little more than old sports racers with the appropriate plastic draped over them, in the style of Tony Sugden's marvellous 'Skoda'

I think more than one of these might not even have been a sports racer but an F2 March with plastic body. I think Jim McGaughy (apologies if I spelt that wrong) had a "Lancia Montecarlo" that was actually a Toleman TG250 in the early 80s. There was also a "BMW M1" that had the ex Purley Chevron B30 F5000 chassis tucked away underneath.

#29 Bob Riebe

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Posted 08 September 2007 - 19:17

http://www.hotrod.co...tera/index.html

#30 eurocardoc

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 18:44

Originally posted by philippe7

Indeed !

Chris had a road going version, white, reg # 175 MPH.

The opposition was mainly MGB, and such in that class, stock with no mods allowed. Richardson blueprinted our engine, Chris drove around the big understeer problem in that car. We won many races, 1972. Car was owned by the importer.

Brian