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Sebastien Bourdais - Now, there's no doubting he is a good driver.


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#1 Domination

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:12

A lot of people have been dismissing him, but today clearly he showed that he is one of the best drivers in the grid. If the Ferrari engine didn't let him down, he would have brought the STR in 4th place!!! Just think about it, in a grid where Macca, Ferrari, BMW 6 cars in total were the fastest package, he would have been 4th. I look forward to seeing what he can do as the season progresses.

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#2 Jacquesback

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:13

Brilliant performance just a shame Ferrari let him down.

#3 MPea3

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:16

Great job. Fortunately while bulletin boards are full of people who want to predict the future and tell us how good they think people will be, the drivers have their chance every race to show it for themselves.

#4 kNt

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:17

But he was just sitting there ;).

No seriously, good drive but not very outstanding just gaining from circumstances.

#5 Formulaonefan

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:40

good job well done, unfortunately Ferrari messed up with the engine.

#6 primer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:43

I think he is a competetive driver, but I wouldn't cite today's race as some kind of evidence. There were a lot of incidents, safety cars etc and drivers went up and down all over the place.
Losing a bucketful (EDIT: spoonful?) of points because of engine has to hurt, particularly on your debut F1 race. ):

#7 kamix

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:43

And it had nothing to do with the safety cars and only being 7 (?) cars finishing?

Come on ...

I like Seb and I want to see him do well but he missed q2 and lucked into his position due to him pitting just before the SC. It looked like Alonso would have taken him until he slowed down to hold Heikki off.

Reality anyone?

#8 Domination

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:45

Originally posted by kamix
And it had nothing to do with the safety cars and only being 7 (?) cars finishing?

Come on ...

I like Seb and I want to see him do well but he missed q2 and lucked into his position due to him pitting just before the SC. It looked like Alonso would have taken him until he slowed down to hold Heikki off.

Reality anyone?


Bourdais is very experienced with the safety cars coming from champ car. He's got the race craft. I don't think Alonso would have had Seb off. Seb was driving consistently and defending his position very strongly.

#9 MAJP

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:50

No he wouldn't! He had that chance for many laps, and never could get close enough! Good Job Seb! And by the way, that's the way he drives, you don't think he is fast, but nobody could catch him!

#10 jokuvaan

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:52

4 time champ champ was like a fish in a water in todays action packed race.

#11 kamix

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:53

Originally posted by Domination


Bourdais is very experienced with the safety cars coming from champ car. He's got the race craft. I don't think Alonso would have had Seb off. Seb was driving consistently and defending his position very strongly.


What does his experience with safety cars have to do with anything? You're praising him for not getting overtaken on the restart? If you look at the last restart he dropped at least a second or more two the guys in front of him. The Renault looks about even on pace with the STR at the moment, and Heikki was held up two cars behind him.

Now yes - Bourdais did look like he was holding on without making any mistakes. However I'm not sure when we reached the point in F1 that we praise drivers for not making mistakes. It's not like he overtook anyone ...

Also we didn't see him defend his position AT ALL. Alonso never got close enough to make an attempt, and that was partially due to loss of downforce from running close and also because he was in turn trying to hold off Heikki behind him.

#12 marcinito

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:58

Originally posted by kNt
But he was just sitting there ;).

No seriously, good drive but not very outstanding just gaining from circumstances.


I couldn't agree more :up:

#13 Burai

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:01

He kept his head whilst far more experienced and decorated drivers lost theirs.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

It wasn't a spectacular debut by any means, but to be spectacular today would have probably left him in the gravel like it did so many others. He drove well within the limits of his car, avoided trouble and it very nearly paid off.

#14 marcinito

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:03

Originally posted by Burai
He kept his head whilst far more experienced and decorated drivers lost theirs.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

It wasn't a spectacular debut by any means, but to be spectacular today would have probably left him in the gravel like it did so many others. He drove well within the limits of his car, avoided trouble and it very nearly paid off.


true, he capitalized on his cool, but you have to admit that F1 is about racing and that was delivered by Alonso today.

#15 Domination

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:04

Originally posted by Burai

It wasn't a spectacular debut by any means


I wonder if you would be saying that if Vettel was 4th with 3 laps to go in his debut race against 6 superior cars.

#16 kamix

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:04

Originally posted by Burai
He kept his head whilst far more experienced and decorated drivers lost theirs.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

It wasn't a spectacular debut by any means, but to be spectacular today would have probably left him in the gravel like it did so many others. He drove well within the limits of his car, avoided trouble and it very nearly paid off.


Amen.

But lets have none of this spectacular, brilliant, etc etc. It was a solid debut, and hopefully it leads to better performances later in the year.

#17 Domination

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:09

I don't understand why you wouldn't call it a brilliant drive. If it was Vettel, Nakajima, Rosberg then everyone would be raving on about it. Sometimes I get the feeling that either F1 fans are biased against people coming from American open wheel series, or just don't want to acknowledge him because they like to think Vettel is the new wonder kid.


Anyway, good debut and looking forward to seeing what he can do in the next race.

#18 armchair expert

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:13

Did anyone seriously doubt he is a good driver?
Today he drove a smart race and was let down in the end. He kept his head while others around him were losing theirs (haven't I read that somewhere before?). :up:

#19 Burai

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:16

Originally posted by Domination


I wonder if you would be saying that if Vettel was 4th with 3 laps to go in his debut race against 6 superior cars.


Well that all depends on how Vettel got there doesn't it? You can be win by being solid or you can be 4th by being spectacular. There's no one way to drive a race. And as we saw today, being spectacular cost a fair few drivers.

It's clear from the TV pictures that Bourdais' Toro Rosso was oversteering something dreadful (and had been pretty "off" all weekend come to that) so I don't think there was any way he'd be able to "do an Alonso", nor did he need to - he was ahead of the Spaniard after all!

You have to be careful when throwing words like "spectacular" around.

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#20 former champ

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:17

Bourdais - Impressive debut. :up:

#21 kamix

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:43

Domination I have nothing against the guy, in fact I was rooting for him all through the race. This has nothing to do with American OW Racing.

The point is, he was not running 4th on merit or due to a particularly special effort. Like Webber on his debut, he was only there due to sheer luck. In this case it was lucky timing of his last pitstop combined with cars falling off the track all around him.

It was good to see him ignore the pressure and not make any mistakes. But for me that is not something to go to town about. If he had been passing cars and driving the car past it's base potential, I would be going crazy and throwing adverbs around all over the place like you are.

Now, if we compare him to his fellow rookies Nakajima and Piquet, we can start giving him the :up: He obviously has talent, and like I said before I hope to see him convert it to results more this season.

#22 kamix

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:35

"It's not the first time I've experienced disappointment in racing and it won't be the last," said Bourdais, "but what is important is that the team has worked really well, reacting very quickly, getting me into pitlane as soon as the lights went off for the second safety car. It was a great call.

"I hardly dared look at the pit board, but I knew it was nearly the end of the race. At the start I was down the order and running quite heavy and I was struggling a bit. But then I got the hang of things and after the re-start my radio did not work for a moment, so I was caught out by the green light.


I stand corrected on the lucky pit stop and the SC restart.

#23 glorius&victorius

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:18

Good mature driving. I wouldnt say he's was all lucky. Many drivers went off, crashed, etc. He kept it on the road and did what he had to. Offcourse you're never racing along but wit 20something other drivers. Your result will always be the outcome of what the rest does.

Shame for the engine problem. :up:

#24 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:23

Amazing drive keeping world champions in much better cars behind for many laps :up: :up:

#25 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:43

Yeah, a solid drive form Seb. I was curious about waht to expect from Bourdais and I think I got the answer. He may star in races lie this, while, IMHO he will strugle in qualifying and on less chaotic Sunday afternoons.

Overall, I think he will do a Wurz, at least this year: fast in race trim, but a poor qualifying would hamper his progress. And, as a result, he'll round out just outside the points, overtaking many cars in the process. However, it's still too early to say, I might be wrong.

#26 2soX

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:45

Originally posted by kamix
And it had nothing to do with the safety cars and only being 7 (?) cars finishing?

Come on ...

I like Seb and I want to see him do well but he missed q2 and lucked into his position due to him pitting just before the SC. It looked like Alonso would have taken him until he slowed down to hold Heikki off.

Reality anyone?


....and staying out of trouble doesn`t take talent?
I expect SB to do as best as one can driving for STR, while the more seasoned drivers knock themselves out with bonehead passing moves and spins ;)

#27 917k

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:47

Nice drive, I guess, although you have to remember he was 15th [and last runner] for sometime before the 1st safety car.

He was cool and careful but his pace was never really there.

#28 Alfisti

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:21

Originally posted by Andrew, Ford &F1
Overall, I think he will do a Wurz, at least this year: fast in race trim, but a poor qualifying would hamper his progress.


Jesus fing christ, Wurz was a SLUG in race trim last year, he was just closer to Rosberg than in qualifying where he was awful. If Bourdais races like Wurz did last year then Dornboss is in the car by Canada.

He kept his nose clean and did not make mistakes in Melbourne, good on him for that, but he's a solid 4 to 5 tenths of a 20 year old kid.

#29 noikeee

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:31

I thought it was the exact same thing as Wurz in Canada and Nurbugring last year. Well done for avoiding trouble? Yes. Amazing? No. More like the product of luck than anything else (well, eventually lucked failed him with the engine, but he was lucky to have been up to 4th place).

Good debut, definitely better than the other rookies and semi-rookies (Piquet, Nakajima, Glock) - but I want to see what he can do in a normal race. Don't forget that on Saturday Vettel seemed much quicker.

#30 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:52

Seb drove very, very well today in his first GP. Kept his head on and his foot in it and just got on with a good job. Of course he benefited from a lot of other cars not finishing but that should not take away from the great performance of him and his team. They just did better than the other teams and drives. Well done!


CC

#31 mstar

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:34

i have a feeling the Bourdais will be more complete in the races then vettel. He for sure has more race craft then vettel. He just needs to get used to qualy

#32 F1Champion

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:35

Seb did great. His first GP race in mixed conditions in a 07 Toro Rosso and he kept his head when others lost theirs.

I think that's a very good start.

#33 Atreiu

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:51

He impressed me too, very good effort.
Hopefully we'll see more of it!

#34 BMW_F1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:09

Bourdais is a very good racer. People like to put down Champ but the fact is that his experience there racing wheel to wheel without traction control would benefit him in F1 as demonstrated on this race. IMO he'll end up with more points than Vettel.

#35 MLC

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:16

Bourdais deserves the praise. He drove very well and it bodes well for an improved season for STR. :up:

#36 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:40

Originally posted by paranoik0
I thought it was the exact same thing as Wurz in Canada and Nurbugring last year. Well done for avoiding trouble? Yes. Amazing? No. More like the product of luck than anything else (well, eventually lucked failed him with the engine, but he was lucky to have been up to 4th place).

It can be viewed that there is a certain luck factor playing a role in being offered an opportunity, but there is zero luck in coverting that opportunity in to result. To write off Wurz's 3rd & 4th, or Seabass' 4th simply as luck, I think is down right rude to them and their achievements, and far too lenient to the others drivers who were shit on the day.

#37 Dalton007

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:49

Bourdais wasn't that fast, but he stayed out of trouble. :up:

#38 Tmeranda

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:58

I've said for years that Seabass was the best driver not in F1, now I can see that I was right. Nice race, good judgment. Hope to see more.

#39 ForMules

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:59

Originally posted by Dalton007
Bourdais wasn't that fast, but he stayed out of trouble. :up:


he's driving a 2007 toro rosso!

no sparks there, but the guy is quicker and the most consistant along a race from "the rest"

Lucky to get out from the race? when in the end of the grid, lol

a rookie? this guy got 4 titles!

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#40 Craven Morehead

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:11

So after four champcar titles, there is still some doubt about him being any "good" ;)

#41 inca_roads

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 21:57

He did a very good job, and I think he will over the course of the season.

Considering the amount of mistakes made by rookies in their first race, and add that to the new regs and chaotic nature of the race, and yes, not making any errors is a good achievement. And as far as pace goes, he wasn't too bad actually - he was pulling away from Alonso before his engine died.

#42 PassWind

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 22:23

I think Seb drove very well and here is why.

New Rules have produced an interesting first race result.

No TC caused attrition in this race no doubt, look at who didn't finish, there were a numbers of DNF's due to loss of vehicle control not mechanical failure. Seb didn't make a mistake so a thumbs up here.

One thing to consider he was on for 4th with 8 cars to finish, was the STR a 11th place finisher with a full grid? Vettel put the thing into the top 10 pace wise so we could say yes he put it where it should've been yes in front of Alonso as Vettel was quicker than Alonso.

Now all said it balances the relevance of gaining those spots, but when you look at why those drivers didn't finish Kimi and Massa included Sebs drive becomes pretty impressive.

#43 vandem

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 00:28

Originally posted by kamix
... The point is, he was not running 4th on merit or due to a particularly special effort. Like Webber on his debut, he was only there due to sheer luck. In this case it was lucky timing of his last pitstop combined with cars falling off the track all around him...

Sheer luck and the ineptitude of the way the pit lane closure rule has been drafted / applied.

Before the SC period Bourdais was running in 13th = second-to-last. When he got the news that the pit lane was open, he would still have been at racing speed, not yet caught up to the queue behind the SC. So he could pit, then get out ahead of SC and catch the back of the queue again. The others who pitted soon after, at their first chance (Kubica, Alonso, Glock, Nakajima) were not so lucky !

If you compare positions from before and after pitting for the five who pitted, you can see which backmarker gained an "unfair" advantage from the timing of the pit lane opening:

Kubica 4th->8th
Alonso 6th->9th
Glock 9th->11th
Nakajima 11th->10th
Bourdais 13th->6th

Hmmm.

It would be much more fair if pit lane opened about 10-15 secs before the SC + leader + queue were to pass pit entry, or perhaps you could only pit during SC pit opening period if you were actually in the SC queue, then backmarkers wouldn't get an unfair advantage.

P.S. This is no reflection on Bourdais' sensible driving. Just showing that an anomaly in the rules worked significantly in his favour. And probably hindered those running behind him in 2nd half of race, but because of his retirement I don't think this made any change to the final result.

#44 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 00:53

Originally posted by Craven Morehead
So after four champcar titles, there is still some doubt about him being any "good" ;)


He was F3000 champ too. People forget about that.

There's no doubt he can drive....it's more a question of how long it will take him to be comfortable in an F1 car.

And for those questioning how 'luck' was involved in todays result keep in mind that he stayed in front of, and gapped, Alonso and Heikki!

CC

#45 kamix

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 01:33

And probably had a similar paced car to Alonso (based on quali), who was severely blocking Heikki (HK was 2+ seconds slower than Hamilton behind Alonso).

#46 Locai

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 12:53

I thought he drove quite well. I wouldn't say it was "Spectactular", though. Remember that there were 5 other cars in the race with Ferrari engines and none of them were still running at the end. Now, I won't say that the Force India cars would have done better than Bourdais if they had lasted. And, I don't know what Vettel could have done had he still been running at the end. But, it's probably safe to say that the factory Ferraris would have done better than Bourdais' STR. And, who knows what Barichello's Honda would have done if they hadn't completely "hosed up" ;) the last pitstop.

I was thinking while I was watching him, though, that his race reminded me of Webber's run for Minardi in Australia his rookie year. He took advantage of the high attrition and did his best to bring home the car, while holding off some better cars with more experienced drivers.

#47 Foxy

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:00

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


And for those questioning how 'luck' was involved in todays result keep in mind that he stayed in front of, and gapped, Alonso and Heikki!


terrific F1 debut - go Sebastien :clap:

#48 noikeee

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:24

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


He was F3000 champ too. People forget about that.


People forget about that, because he was a 3rd year F3000 champ, like Justin Wilson or Vincenzo Sospiri. It's the 4 ChampCar titles that stand out.

#49 shaggy

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:32

Originally posted by paranoik0


People forget about that, because he was a 3rd year F3000 champ, like Justin Wilson or Vincenzo Sospiri. It's the 4 ChampCar titles that stand out.

He was a 2nd year ChampCar champion ... don't forget that.

shaggy

#50 inca_roads

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:44

Originally posted by vandem

Sheer luck and the ineptitude of the way the pit lane closure rule has been drafted / applied.

Before the SC period Bourdais was running in 13th = second-to-last. When he got the news that the pit lane was open, he would still have been at racing speed, not yet caught up to the queue behind the SC. So he could pit, then get out ahead of SC and catch the back of the queue again. The others who pitted soon after, at their first chance (Kubica, Alonso, Glock, Nakajima) were not so lucky !

If you compare positions from before and after pitting for the five who pitted, you can see which backmarker gained an "unfair" advantage from the timing of the pit lane opening:

Kubica 4th->8th
Alonso 6th->9th
Glock 9th->11th
Nakajima 11th->10th
Bourdais 13th->6th

Hmmm.

It would be much more fair if pit lane opened about 10-15 secs before the SC + leader + queue were to pass pit entry, or perhaps you could only pit during SC pit opening period if you were actually in the SC queue, then backmarkers wouldn't get an unfair advantage.

P.S. This is no reflection on Bourdais' sensible driving. Just showing that an anomaly in the rules worked significantly in his favour. And probably hindered those running behind him in 2nd half of race, but because of his retirement I don't think this made any change to the final result.


That's interesting. Maybe they could change it to the effect of "pit lane now open for each car once they've crossed the start/finish line once?" It gets a bit complicated though.