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Barrichello/red light


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#1 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:25

He exited the pits under a red light, it was pretty evident at the time...

...how come it took so long for officialdom to notice?

Can they now penalize him? I get confused with the 15 minute black flag limitation thing, not sure if it's still around.

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#2 VoidNT

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:28

Charlie Whiting will discuss it with Ross Brawn later in the bar.

#3 Juan Kerr

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:32

It would be on red when the pitlane was closed though wouldn't it ? When was that replay, when the SC came out or when he was serving his stop and go ??

#4 swe

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:32

He had no choice but to pit he didn't have anymore fule left.I don't know what rule apply on that situation

#5 Juan Kerr

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:35

He served his penalty for going through the pitlane when he shouldn't have (the red light would be on) so I don't see him losing his points.

#6 Cenotaph

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:37

Well, the stop/go was a pretty obvious decision for pitting under SC, but exiting pits under red should get him DQ for sure? Even if it's not his mistake but race control's... Massa and Fisi were DQ in Montreal last year under similar conditions.

#7 primer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:37

Instead of a 10 seconds stop-n-go penalty, shouldn't he be disqualified? How was this incident (entering and/or exiting the pit-lane under reds) different from the Massa Canada GP 2007?!

Could it be, that the FIA stewards are a bunch of clown?

PS: Please I have nothing against RB or Honda, he was quite decent in the race, it was just the red light thing and I'd like the FIA to be consistent.

#8 VresiBerba

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:37

Originally posted by swe
He had no choice but to pit he didn't have anymore fule left.

When he exited the pit he had plenty of fuel, but Rubens passed a red light anyway. Montoya got a black flag in Canada for exiting the pit on red, and so did Massa and Fisichella a year later. So why not Rubens :

#9 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:38

I don't know, they didn't make it clear. I got the impression the drivethru was for entering the pit when he shouldn't have, he didn't get one AT ALL for passing the red light on the exit because they missed it (it took about half-an-hour to replay it). To me that's 2 offences, and a drivethru for ignoring a red light is surely a woefully inadequate penalty? It's potentially HIGHLY dangerous.

#10 primer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:39

Originally posted by swe
He had no choice but to pit he didn't have anymore fule left.I don't know what rule apply on that situation


Well, I am quite sure he could have waited just outside the entrance line, idling the car, waiting for the light to go green? It is not as if he'd be blocking anyone (red for everyone...).

#11 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:39

Originally posted by swe
He had no choice but to pit he didn't have anymore fule left.I don't know what rule apply on that situation



Rules don't care about fuel levels. And I don't recall any rule change after Canada, when Massa and uh Rosberg? got DQ'ed for doing exactly the same thing. Red light at the exit of the pit means stop and wait for the light to turn green. He got a penalty for enterting the pits during red light - that's another incident.

#12 Atreiu

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:39

The SC and pit lane rules obviously need some ammending. :down:

#13 swe

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:42

Well, I am quite sure he could have waited just outside the entrance line, idling the car, waiting for the light to go green?

That i didn't know..In that case he will probably get DQ'ed
Shame for Honda&Rubbens and the fans :cry:

#14 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:46

Originally posted by primer


Well, I am quite sure he could have waited just outside the entrance line, idling the car, waiting for the light to go green? It is not as if he'd be blocking anyone (red for everyone...).



This is exactly what Kubica did in Canada. It is a normal procedure to wait at the end of the pit lane when the light is red. I will be surprised of Rubbens wont get a DQ after the race.

#15 rearwheelskid00

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:05

A driver serves a stop-go penalty for entering the pitlane when it is closed under safety car conditions. Also according to the rules, a driver is disqualified for leaving the pitlane under a red light.
Barrichello rightly served a stop-go penalty, but must also be disqualified for not heeding a red light because the safety car was approaching the pit-straight.

I thought the race officials have to make the decision to disqualify Barrichello?

#16 ClubmanGT

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:07

Originally posted by rearwheelskid00
A driver serves a stop-go penalty for entering the pitlane when it is closed under safety car conditions. Also according to the rules, a driver is disqualified for leaving the pitlane under a red light.
Barrichello rightly served a stop-go penalty, but must also be disqualified for not heeding a red light because the safety car was approaching the pit-straight.

I thought the race officials have to make the decision to disqualify Barrichello?


Yea, can't understand why this is taking so long to be announced?

#17 jokuvaan

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:08

Unless team was told by radio that he is ok to go through red and cant see what would save him from being disqualified.

#18 armchair expert

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:10

Originally posted by rearwheelskid00
A driver serves a stop-go penalty for entering the pitlane when it is closed under safety car conditions. Also according to the rules, a driver is disqualified for leaving the pitlane under a red light.
Barrichello rightly served a stop-go penalty, but must also be disqualified for not heeding a red light because the safety car was approaching the pit-straight.

I thought the race officials have to make the decision to disqualify Barrichello?


This would seem like the only course of action open to them. Rubens had to refuel, but he didn't have to get back on the track immediately. He should have waited at the pit exit until the light went green. He didn't therefore he gets disqualified.

#19 VresiBerba

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:20

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Unless team was told by radio that he is ok to go through red and cant see what would save him from being disqualified.

Why would the team be told that :confused:

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#20 bpl

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:21

It's a red light. When are you ever allowed to go through a red light? Identical to Massa/Fisichella in Canada last year, I'd expect disqualification - and an extra point for Kimi.

#21 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:22

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Why would the team be told that :confused:



Yeah, If it is Ok to leave the pits they're supposed to change the light to green, no?

#22 Keffo

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:24

Originally posted by bpl
It's a red light. When are you ever allowed to go through a red light? Identical to Massa/Fisichella in Canada last year, I'd expect disqualification - and an extra point for Kimi.

Official now.

#23 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:25

Originally posted by Keffo
Official now.


link?

#24 Verderer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:42

Yes, please. A link would be nice.

#25 mach4

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:44

Originally posted by Verderer
Yes, please. A link would be nice.


http://www.formule1....sei=32&nid=7027

#26 Verderer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:47

Thanks, Mach. Although I don't speak Dutch, I got the gist of it. How reliable is this source, I wonder?

#27 mach4

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:50

Originally posted by Verderer
Thanks, Mach. Although I don't speak Dutch, I got the gist of it. How reliable is this source, I wonder?


No idea.. I don't speak dutch either.. got the link to that website from Keffo's profile above (the one who said it was official). So maybe not even a real source.

#28 riffola

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:58

I can't read Dutch either, but I am glad Rubens was DQed. It was a very obvious faux pas.

Also that new chief mechanic at Honda did an awful job by lifting the board too early.

#29 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:01

They simply have to DQ him, for the sake of consistency...

#30 armchair expert

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:04

Official
disqualified

#31 Keffo

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:05

And Nakajima loses ten places on the grid in Malaysia for causing a collision, I just heard. Probably for the one with Kubica.

#32 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:06

Good decision, but I feel gutted for him - first points since forever. Still, he is experienced enough to know what to do, so he has only himself to blame.

#33 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:08

Originally posted by Keffo
And Nakajima loses ten places on the grid in Malaysia for causing a collision, I just heard. Probably for the one with Kubica.


Does it mean they do have an better video that the one that was shown during the broadcast (onboard from Kova i think)? It still looked like Nakajima fault, but I wouldn't penalize him based on that..

#34 Keffo

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:10

Originally posted by wingwalker


Does it mean they do have an better video that the one that was shown during the broadcast (onboard from Kova i think)? It still looked like Nakajima fault, but I wouldn't penalize him based on that..

Don't know. It wasn't mentioned which collision.

#35 Tolyngee

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:10

Originally posted by riffola
Also that new chief mechanic at Honda did an awful job by lifting the board too early.


I'm under the impression too many people were unaware that the pitlane was closed. Otherwise, why be in a hurried situation leading to a dangerous mistake when it was a hurry-up-and-wait situation in reality?

it was a team blunder that almost cost them more than just a DQ...

#36 Cenotaph

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:13

Nakajima's penalty, if true, is fair. The SC was exiting to the pits, but they were still under SC, nothing justifies the crash, it was identical to Vettel on Webber last year, except that this time weather conditions and visibility were much better.

#37 Apex

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:10

Originally posted by Tolyngee


I'm under the impression too many people were unaware that the pitlane was closed. Otherwise, why be in a hurried situation leading to a dangerous mistake when it was a hurry-up-and-wait situation in reality?

it was a team blunder that almost cost them more than just a DQ...

Maybe the pit exit was still open then and they tried to get him out before it was closed?

#38 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:43

Originally posted by wingwalker


Does it mean they do have an better video that the one that was shown during the broadcast (onboard from Kova i think)? It still looked like Nakajima fault, but I wouldn't penalize him based on that..



I'd like to strongly disagree with myself :rotfl:


I watched the video again, Kubica is in the fore ground but it is clearly visible he is in usual line, very close to the driver in front when Nakajima hits him. It looked like Nakajima was thinking about something else and forgot to brake in time. His comments sound very arrogant (see main page).

#39 britishtrident

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:32

All depends if Ferrari ask Max for the points

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#40 britishtrident

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:41

Ferrari are playing the same old game. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

#41 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:51

Originally posted by britishtrident
Ferrari are playing the same old game. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

wtfk is wrong with you?

#42 vanfriends

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:44

How the stewards can not make a decision as clear-cut as the case here during the race is odd.

#43 Dalton007

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:46

Get rid of this stupid safety car rule!!! :mad: I don't understand the reasons for locking down the pitlane. Stupid, stupid rule. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

#44 zakeriath

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:56

Based on previous posts

There were two offences

Firstly entering the pits when the pits were closed under the SC conditions, this stops everybody diving in all at once. The penalty for this being a 10 sec stop and go.

Secondly exiting the pits when the red light is shown, for which the penalty is disqualification. The red light is only shown typically if the SC has entered the start finish line.

WRT notification it the pit exit marshall who report the violation to the COC who makes the decision for disqualification under the respective racing rules. The TV broadcast would or should have no influence in this case.

#45 kismet

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:57

Heh, I think they followed the precedent (Canada 2007) just fine. It appears Barrichello was guilty of two different offenses: 1) pitting when he wasn't allowed to, and 2) then running the red light. He copped a drive-through for the former just like Alonso and someone else (can't remember who it was) did at Montreal and a DQ for the latter just like Fisi and Massa did.

Now, obviously it was a bit of an overkill/oversight to hand him two separate penalties when a black flag alone would've done the trick but it was pretty close to the end of the race, maybe they had to quadruple-check stuff and argue with Honda etc. before making a decision that can't be reversed and simply ran out of time. I seem to remember it took a while to announce the decision at Montreal as well.

#46 Atreiu

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:29

This is just a huge shame.

Barrichello's option were to stay out and run out of fuel, or to refuel and then stand still for laps until the pits were open, drop to dead last and then receive and ten second penalty once the race was restarted.




So, basically, whenever the SC will come out from now on, ramdom disqualification and race ruining dice will be rolled. This time Barrichello was caght. Last year it was Massa and Fisichalla at Canada, plus Alonso and Rosberg, if I'm not mistaken.

#47 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:42

He committed an offence and deserved an penalty.
In a rare move, the FIA/Stewards actually followed precedence!

However IMO, the idea of an instant DQ every time does seem overboard, and in need of review. You can put somebody's health at risk by ignoring a yellow or causing an avoidable accident, and you'll be given a lesser penalty. The list of sporting regulation infringements that lead to a DQ is tiny, and very rarely committed, and the pitlane exit light seems to be out of place on that list.

#48 zakeriath

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:47

Originally posted by Atreiu
This is just a huge shame.

Barrichello's option were to stay out and run out of fuel, or to refuel and then stand still for laps until the pits were open,


No, once the SC & the pack had gone past the green exit light would have come on and he would have been able to rejoin the track.

#49 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:49

Originally posted by zakeriath

WRT notification it the pit exit marshall who report the violation to the COC who makes the decision for disqualification under the respective racing rules. The TV broadcast would or should have no influence in this case.



But it sure looked like it did. A few guys spotted what appeared to be red lights in the live thread it was visble for a short amount of time, but Rubbens got only penlised for entrering the pits. I thought I looked simply at some other red circles, not pit lights and misidentified them as pit lights. After that it was all quiet untill a long while later tv director showed a replay of Rubbens leaving the pits.

#50 Atreiu

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:50

Okay, I stand corrected then. But he would still have been a lap down and punished after for simply having no fuel when the SC came out.