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Barrichello/red light


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#51 Youichi

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:50

Originally posted by Atreiu
This is just a huge shame.

Barrichello's option were to stay out and run out of fuel, or to refuel and then stand still for laps until the pits were open, drop to dead last and then receive and ten second penalty once the race was restarted.




So, basically, whenever the SC will come out from now on, ramdom disqualification and race ruining dice will be rolled. This time Barrichello was caght. Last year it was Massa and Fisichalla at Canada, plus Alonso and Rosberg, if I'm not mistaken.


No Barrichello's/Honda's options were to stop the lap before, and not put himself/thier driver at risk of a safety car deployment, or gamble, they gambled and lost.

So, basically, whenever the SC comes out from now on, those teams who gambled, will put themselves at risk.

And Barrichello's DQ had no relation to his fuel level, if he'd waited till the pits were open, he'd still have to have stopped at a red light at pit exit.

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#52 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:53

I agree it is harsh, but these are not "random DQ's". You see a red light, you stop and wait. It is that simple. Kubica did this in Canada and avoided penalty (and had his famous crash instantly beacuse of the contact with Trulli who passed him when the lights changed, I still don't get why he wasn't penalized for that, but that's another story).

#53 zakeriath

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:57

Originally posted by wingwalker



But it sure looked like it did. A few guys spotted what appeared to be red lights in the live thread it was visble for a short amount of tim, but Rubbens got only penlised for entrering the pits. I thought I looked simply at some other red circles, not pit lights and misidentified them as pit lights. After that it was all quiet untill a long while later tv director showed a replay of Rubbens leaving the pits.


Dont forget it can take a while for the report to reach the COC through race control, the team is usually first notified that their driver is about to be DQ`ed. Othe DQ is announced (not to public initially) then normally will it be relooked at by the TV director and announced to the viewers.

#54 BlackCat

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:59

a driver who does not see red light or does not understand its meaning is obviously not fit for racing. bye-bye, Rubens, you had a great career...

#55 Atreiu

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by BlackCat
a driver who does not see red light or does not understand its meaning is obviously not fit for racing. bye-bye, Rubens, you had a great career...


He had just run over a mechanic because of the lolipop guy, he had reasons to be distracted.

#56 BlackCat

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:17

even more reasons to consider him mentally unfit...

#57 stevewf1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:12

Originally posted by BlackCat
even more reasons to consider him mentally unfit...


Because he obeyed the lolipop guy? :confused:

#58 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:39

Yeah, would you obey a man with a giant lollipop? Were all those Public Information Films wasted on you?

#59 FLB

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:15

Originally posted by ensign14
He exited the pits under a red light, it was pretty evident at the time...

...how come it took so long for officialdom to notice?

SpeedTV's Steve Matchett saw it immediately. We had a replay from Speed's own recording of the international feed long before the international feed replayed the incident (if that's clear :lol: ).

Concerning the lollipop incident, it seems that Honda has a new chief mechanic, replacing Alistair Gibson. He lacks experience on the lollipop. Basically, he took it up too early and made a rookie mistake.

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#60 vandem

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 00:48

Originally posted by Atreiu
This is just a huge shame.

Barrichello's option were to stay out and run out of fuel, or to refuel and then stand still for laps until the pits were open, drop to dead last and then receive and ten second penalty once the race was restarted....

Not quite. I believe he could have refuelled, then waited for the SC+leader+queue to pass and pit lane exit light to go green, then joined back of queue, then when pit lane opened (probably still under SC) immediately done his 10sec penalty stop. Then probably he would have had time to join the back of queue again before SC pulled in.

But there is a problem with sequencing of pit lane entry vs position of the safety car. Anybody notice how Bourdais jumped from 13th to 6th ? This is discussed in the Bourdais thread.

#61 HP

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 01:02

I don't see the problem with the pit lane red light rules.

The pit lane exit light turns red when there are cars on the track near by. So the red light is not on during the entire time the pit lane is closed. Rubens would have only had gotten his 10 seconds stop'n'go penalty, had he been more attentive. But I think teams would do well to remind their drivers upon leaving exits to check the exit light.

The entire SC car procedure however leaves a bit to wish for. Sad that it were drivers, I remember Fisichella being one of them, who asked for the old rules to be changed.

#62 HP

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 01:18

Originally posted by Dalton007
Get rid of this stupid safety car rule!!! :mad: I don't understand the reasons for locking down the pitlane. Stupid, stupid rule. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The part that led to the pit lane lock down rules, was because before almost everybody headed into the pits for refueling, when the SC car came out. When teammates would run very close to each other, the one behind would slow down, so that both cars could be serviced without delay for the second driver. Since the SC car was out, no passing was allowed, and the teammate behind would keep his position. At least Ferrari and McLaren have been doing this in the past. It's difficult to find a fair solution for this issue. There was the idea of having 2 pit crews for each team, that would solve the issue and had even prevented the McLaren penalty in qualifying in Hungary last year. But the extra costs for teams and track owner would be a bit too much.

Fisichella was most vocal on the issue of lapped drivers in the way at the restart, so he and other requested that they line up in their actual race position behind the SC car. The obvious motivation was that it might enable to gain positions at the restart. However I think that was a not a good idea, because as far as I understand that led to the pit lane being closed down to give time for drivers to find their race position (another reason probably having a look how NASCAR is doing it), and even more importantly, it's a cheap way for the drivers behind to pass a lapped driver, effectively negating the work the leading driver has done.

For me while the changes have all good reasons, they are another artificial way to try and create overtaking opportunities. Which IMO I don't think is what racing is all about. Change the cars, to allow for overtaking.

The other option might be to give them tires that have to last for the race. And give each driver a credit card that he can use to refuel his car for himself. :lol:

#63 pingu666

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 03:13

theyve always, or nearly always been redicously slow to issue black flags in the past too :/

#64 rearwheelskid00

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:12

I agree. If the FIA disqualify a car for running a red light, then surely releasing a car into the path of another in the pit-lane is also disqualification. Effectively, the driver is dangerously releasing himself into the path of on-coming cars when he runs the pit-lane red light.
It is a silly rule set by the FIA to add drama in a race, which they do not need to do. :down:

#65 blackgerby

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 23:55

Originally posted by britishtrident
Ferrari are playing the same old game. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:


Nowt to do with Ferrari.

#66 blackgerby

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 23:58

I've seen somewhere (can't find it again) that the pit lane light should have been green because the end of the car chain had passed the pit exit. (Not excusing Barrichello, a red light is a red light, the stewards had no choice in DQing him)

#67 512 TR

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 00:05

Originally posted by blackgerby
I've seen somewhere (can't find it again) that the pit lane light should have been green because the end of the car chain had passed the pit exit. (Not excusing Barrichello, a red light is a red light, the stewards had no choice in DQing him)


You have no chance in this forum! That's what I said last year during the Canadian GP last year. I was ridiculed...

Most people have forgetten what F1 used ro be.

#68 blackgerby

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 00:15

Originally posted by 512 TR


You have no chance in this forum! That's what I said last year during the Canadian GP last year. I was ridiculed...

Most people have forgetten what F1 used ro be.



I was raising it as a discussion point, not an argument.

#69 TT6

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:09

I have tried to use the same excuse ("I didn't see it") with local traffic police. Didn't work...

#70 Sakae

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:25

When pitlane is closed, RED light is ON, it will be ON, it is always ON in those situations, and RB should know that by now. He had two bad choices before him, and choose to take (he had hoped limited) timing penalty, rather than to potentially run out of fuel, and end up DNF, as team thought he would.

His argument that he couldn't see the light-posting is non-sensical. WTH they are discussing in those drivers get-together then? Shouldn't someone had put it on the agenda long time ago (if it was such a big problem)?

#71 jokuvaan

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:28

I see no harm if light would be bigger, I have hard time seeing lights sometime even when I'm pedestrian if sun shines from certain direction.

#72 Clatter

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:15

Originally posted by jokuvaan
I see no harm if light would be bigger, I have hard time seeing lights sometime even when I'm pedestrian if sun shines from certain direction.


No harm if the light is bigger, but how can any driver use that as an excuse? The same lights were in use the whole weekend, and probably for years. The driver has a duty to check the lights before leaving the pit lane, they should never assume they are green, and really how hard is it to throw a quick glance at them.

#73 Perigee

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:18

Rubens - Red light = Stop.

That's really all there is to it....

#74 Josta

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:27

Rubens is used to driving in Brazil where if you stop at red lights, the chances are you will be carjacked.

:D

#75 jk

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:51

Does anyone know where the SC was at the time Rubens exited the pits?

Since he pitted under a red light, he would not have pitted from behind the SC queu. Therefor the SC probably would not have been on the start/finish straight by the time he exited the pits.


No reason to ignore the red light, but whereas the incidents in Canada was very clear, this time i am not so sure the SC queu was on the straight. I did not see the SC wait for Hamilton round the first corner, instead it seemed to race around the track waiting for Hamilton to catch up. A bad way of doing it in my oppinion. Get the SC to the first corner, and wait until the leader has caught it. The race director had a wierd usage of the SC, so the red light being on could be another wierdo from them.

#76 Lioncasa

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:09

Originally posted by HP
The part that led to the pit lane lock down rules, was because before almost everybody headed into the pits for refueling, when the SC car came out. When teammates would run very close to each other, the one behind would slow down, so that both cars could be serviced without delay for the second driver.


That was one of the things which motivated the change to lock down the pit lane during the first lap(s) of a SC period.
Another one was that cars were actually racing to the pit lane to get there with as much a gap as possible.
And racing during a SC period is not allowed!

Rubens only mistake is driving through the red light at the end of the pi lane.
Running out of fuel behind the SC is definitely worse then receiving a 10 second stop-and-go for refueling when it was not allowed.
But he should have stopped before the red light!

BTW doing a stop-and-go during an SC period is not allowed, you have to take it while racing under green.