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"No TC? By the time of the first GP you won't notice a difference"


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#1 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:50

Remember all that talk during the winter test? It's so great that it turned out to be BS. Small slides were visible all the time, as well as with breaking twitches. Race was 10 times better than last year - here's hoping this trend will continue! Next season (with slicsk and new aero - it is coming for 2009, right?) might be a blast.

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#2 StefanV

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:58

Exactly. At last the F1 cars looked fast again and the drivers did not look like bus drivers on autobahn.
:up:

#3 gio66

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:04

Sorry but I do not agree with this.

I hoped to see smoking tyres and black stripes at the start.
The TC (or LC) is still present, IMHO.

#4 former champ

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:05

I found it great to see the cars sliding around, to see the drivers fighting their cars. You could definetly tell the difference compared to last year.

#5 Spunout

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:39

I sure as hell noticed the difference. This was far better than 2007 :up:

#6 FredF1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:02

Proper engine sounds as well - no more popping and farting through the corners.

#7 kar

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:04

Watching Raikkonen in the dirty air car squirming around like crazy was the one highlight I could take from the disaster that was that first race.

#8 Risil

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:10

With next year's reduced aerodynamics the races might be worth watching for their own sake again. :stoned:

#9 Dalton007

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:53

:up: Thumbs up from me. Lots of mistakes. :D

#10 gio66

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:21

Originally posted by Dalton007
:up: Thumbs up from me. Lots of mistakes. :D


Yes, a lot of mistakes as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Oh, by the way, this is the 2007 GP...

#11 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:30

Felipe Massa noticed a difference. Quite quickly, too.

#12 wingwalker

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 13:59

Originally posted by gio66


Yes, a lot of mistakes as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Oh, by the way, this is the 2007 GP...


Most of them happened during the FP on a damp track. Way to compare it with a perfectly dry race.

#13 Zmeej

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:20

ensign :up: :cool:

Felipe Massa noticed a difference. Quite quickly, too.

The Brasilian didn't seem to have the car under him at all, did he?

Once again got a sense that it was possible (as it was eons ago) to close down a gap because driving is once again propelling a car past various twitches and entropic urges to go off rather than simply not making a mistake while driving on a rail.

Hamilton has clearly not been affected by the change while leading and qualifying. It will be interesting to see what happens when he comes under pressure.

#14 rolf123

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:30

I noticed that in the first stint there was no sliding at all (except for Massa and maybe other isolated incidents).

It was only in the latter stints and the safety car induced mixup with cars closely behind each other that we saw the sliding. I would attribute this to the soft tires plus great lack of grip combined with lack of TC. I'm not sure how squirming in the wake of another car is seen as a major improvement.

I agree with the original concensus, for the most part the lack of TC has made no difference. Let's not kid ourselves here.

#15 Spunout

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:13

Originally posted by rolf123
I noticed that in the first stint there was no sliding at all (except for Massa and maybe other isolated incidents).

It was only in the latter stints and the safety car induced mixup with cars closely behind each other that we saw the sliding. I would attribute this to the soft tires plus great lack of grip combined with lack of TC. I'm not sure how squirming in the wake of another car is seen as a major improvement.

I agree with the original concensus, for the most part the lack of TC has made no difference. Let's not kid ourselves here.


Everything depends on how closely you watch.

Did you notice how the drivers played with the throttle in corner exits? Big difference from last year. To me those little twitches were exciting, because we know how difficult it is to recover after getting sideways. There were also lots of small mistakes. In some cases, those led to overtaking maneuvres. Massa was sliding. So was Räikkönen. Not to mention both spun in situation where 2007 electronics would have saved the day. In the end, Bourdais and Alonso had their "moments".

This all may not sound much, but I suppose people have forgotten how utterly boring the first races of 2007 really were. 4-way battle for the WDC and rain saved the season, but really...considering the way F1 is nowadays, I´d say ban of TC and braking aids was fantastic call by the FIA. We need all the action we can get!!!

You folks expected too much. 60s-style powersliding, tyre smoke everywhere, several spins on every lap. None of that was going to happen. Look at 2000 season for reference. Bring on Malaysia...

#16 Cenotaph

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:15

To be honest, i wasn't expecting that it would be noticed at all. So, i think it's definitely a surprise to see how some drivers are clearing having a hard time controlling the car. Of course that in the end, the best drivers will be the same that were before. But this race was way more eventful than what we have been experiencing in the last seasons, and the lack of TC definitely played a part in it. It seems to me that it was a great move for F1.

#17 VoidNT

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:39

I think that what we have seen in Melbourne is not a correct pattern for the whole season to come. So many spins, slides, handling problems and so on, all of those issues were worsened by the following temporary effects:

1. It was a first race with a new regulations, with all complications it could bring: everything is new, people is still not adopted well to the new circumstances; with time goes on, mechanics, engineers, drivers will adopt to the new conditions better and will make less mistakes.
2. Nobody knew exactly where are they in terms of performance, so everybody were trying to find the limit and position relative to others;
3. Melbourne is quite tricky track originally, it is dirty and quickly changing. It is not a regular, 'normal' track. It is a hard track for drivers even with TC onboard. In past years, crazy races happened there more often than a boring ones.

Basically as the season goes by, we will see driving becoming less spectacular, with all those temporary effects removed. It won't be as smooth as with TC switched on, but at the same time not so crazy as it was in Australia.

But I hope I'm wrong here! :D

#18 Risil

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 15:45

Originally posted by Zmeej
Once again got a sense that it was possible (as it was eons ago) to close down a gap because driving is once again propelling a car past various twitches and entropic urges to go off rather than simply not making a mistake while driving on a rail.


:up: I got that exact impression watching the race this morning, although for some reason those words never presented themselves! Any entropic urges had fully subsided by the time I got home last night. :)

#19 parabolicaer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:26

I wasn't too thrilled with the idea of standard ECUs, but Oz has really changed my mind. Besides seeing the drivers fighting the cars midcorner, it's great to see drivers making mistakes again. I was surprised with Kimi's multiple mistakes, however. What a mess :drunk:

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#20 jimm

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:45

You guys need to watch Kimi, Lewis, Kubica, Rosberg, Bourdais and a couple of others as they exited corners....Especially Lewis on the restarts who was drifting the rear out coming off the last corner to get a good launch. It was great stuff and will be very interesting in the rain...especially if you think about Japan last year.

#21 rhm

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:54

The bigger impact seems to be the removal of active engine braking, rather than the removal of traction control. Lots of drivings screwing up braking in the race. Not many did it in qualifying, but did you notice some drivers who you'd expect to be faster were quite conservative in qualifying?

Besides, anyone who thinks the cars were going to be sliding about under acceleration like the '70s isn't looking at the whole picture. We still have engines with very little torque and very sticky, fast wearing tyres. In the good old days there was an advantage to sliding round a corner like a rally car, but that would destroy the tyres of a modern f1 car very fast. So without TC the drivers just have to be more conservative under acceleration and put up with it.

#22 Aubwi

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:10

Why was there no tire smoke at the start? That was the only thing I noticed that was clearly different from the 1994-2001 period.

#23 F1Champion

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:16

It surprised me that even with the weeks of winter testing that so many drivers were just dropping the cars and couldn't handle not having TC.

I must admit, it is better and the loss of the field reminded me of the 1997-2000 seasons.

#24 glorius&victorius

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by ensign14
Felipe Massa noticed a difference. Quite quickly, too.


that was unbelievable.. after all the testing miles... he spins after 300 meters... on his own... I saw him later during a RAI interview and he looked very embarrased

#25 SeanValen

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:22

Originally posted by F1Champion
It surprised me that even with the weeks of winter testing that so many drivers were just dropping the cars and couldn't handle not having TC.

I must admit, it is better and the loss of the field reminded me of the 1997-2000 seasons.


Do you think Kimi liked TC? When he arrived in f1, he had a few races with it, then TC came back at Spain 2001.

I've never heard him comment on it.

Massa probabley wouldn't admit it

#26 Orin

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 19:03

Originally posted by wingwalker
Remember all that talk during the winter test? It's so great that it turned out to be BS. Small slides were visible all the time, as well as with breaking twitches. Race was 10 times better than last year - here's hoping this trend will continue! Next season (with slicsk and new aero - it is coming for 2009, right?) might be a blast.


:clap:

Excellent point - I've loved every minute of this weekend, god knows how I managed to sit through the traction control era, I guess you just become inured to the boredom. 2009, slicks and slashed aero, it's probably only going to get better. :D

#27 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 00:22

Great thread. For years, really... years, the 'experts' have been saying that getting rid of TC will not make F1 more spectacular, that we won't get to see the cars moving around alot more. Anybody who has dissented from this opinion has been castigated as almost moronic.

Well, the morons were right. Absolutely great to see the drivers at work. Loved the Aussie GP weekend, and am looking forward immensely to Sepang. :love:

#28 AyePirate

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 02:49

It was awesome.... like a wet race


Thank You FIA :up:

#29 Domination

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 02:50

Originally posted by AyePirate
It was awesome.... like a wet race


Thank You FIA :up:


Now imagine what a wet race would be like. I wouldn't be surprised if only 3 drivers finished the race.

#30 kodandaram

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 03:25

When was the last time we saw no TC racing ? 2000 ? That was the last full season without TC .

I know that the first four races in 2001 also had no TC but 2000 season was the last full year without TC and it was great to watch .

I am very happy with the new regs . You can see the drivers struggling to get a heavy car to hit the apex and get it turned in smoothly because without TC you have to be very careful to induce the attitude to the car so that you get the nose pointed properly - too much throttle and you will just spin off like massa . With TC you can afford to plant the foot and forget it - that was ridiculous . Everybody was squirming around and it was exactly how it should be . IT showed the amount of work involved in getting 800 horses down on the road in a light weight car ... with TC it was so stupid - it looked like the tyres were glued or that the cars were on rails ...

Very happy .. :)

#31 AyePirate

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 03:44

Originally posted by kodandaram
When was the last time we saw no TC racing ? 2000 ? That was the last full season without TC .


at least in theory ;)

#32 hajolyn

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 08:53

Originally posted by gio66


Yes, a lot of mistakes as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Oh, by the way, this is the 2007 GP...


A few mistakes, less than this year, and I watched all FP sessions so know that. What's more important though is this:

6:26, Kova gets his rear wheels on the grass exactly as Kimi did yesterday, and various other people did in the FP sessions. Difference is, unlike the others this year, he didn't spin, thanks to TC kicking in and saving him. This means now drivers' mistakes are punished more.

Also in that clip, during FP & Qualifying the cars looked like they're on rails accelerating out of corners compared to this year; during race for the most part, we didn't see that, I guess it was a combination of heavy fuel loads & drivers not pushing 100% like (some of them) were at the end of Q2, but up until then, it had been brilliant to watch. Anyway, Melbourne is different to most tracks so let's see what it's like at Malaysia, but I think it's great to see the cars looking how they do now, and roll-on 2009 aero rules I say. Maybe Bridgestone can supply the cars with really durable tyres to encourage them to slide even more :p.

#33 FredF1

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 09:39

Originally posted by AyePirate


at least in theory ;)




I'm sure they had some form of engine braking at the very least. I was at Spa in 2000 and the cars seemed to be rather 'squirrely' under braking as if they really didn't want to stop putting the power down but were being forced to.


I know this is about TC and that but a :up: to whoever designed that onscreen graphic showing the specific part of the track affected by yellow flags. Now if they could only get rid of the utterly useless "2 Stops" information and bring back the timing gaps.

#34 SuperDaan

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 09:52

Originally posted by FredF1



I know this is about TC and that but a :up: to whoever designed that onscreen graphic showing the specific part of the track affected by yellow flags. Now if they could only get rid of the utterly useless "2 Stops" information and bring back the timing gaps


Thats a great graphic indeed, I also would like to add the last lap times for each top10 driver, now you see their positions on the left side from top to bottom, they should add the last lap time behind that so we can easily see the laptimes instead of watching from left to right now trying to follow livetiming and TV :smoking:

Ontopic:
Can't wait for the first wet race

#35 roadie

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:29

It really was a great sight to see cars hanging their tails out and drivers using much more opposite lock than we're used to. I hope this is something that we continue to see and wasn't just a result of a very hot day and a non permanent race track.

#36 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:06

Originally posted by SuperDaan


Thats a great graphic indeed, I also would like to add the last lap times for each top10 driver, now you see their positions on the left side from top to bottom, they should add the last lap time behind that so we can easily see the laptimes instead of watching from left to right now trying to follow livetiming and TV :smoking:

Ontopic:
Can't wait for the first wet race


Things is, if the first race is any indication, we don't have to wait for wet races... :D

#37 brett_sequeira

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:22

I wonder if the drivers wee just caught out for the first race. I have a sneaking suspicion that what we saw in Australia will not happen too often this season. Yes the drivers will have to make corrections right through the corners, but the carnage at the start i think is a one off.

I must say that rain races are going to be awesome.

#38 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by brett_sequeira
I wonder if the drivers wee just caught out for the first race. I have a sneaking suspicion that what we saw in Australia will not happen too often this season. Yes the drivers will have to make corrections right through the corners, but the carnage at the start i think is a one off.

I must say that rain races are going to be awesome.


Oh, I see. I must have misunderstood. I thought that we were talking about seeing the drivers working in the cars, of seeing the cars with their 'tails' out. I thought we were talking about drivers becoming a greater factor in the equation - but it seems we were talking about "carnage".... :rolleyes:

Is that really what you want to see?

#39 Josta

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:33

Originally posted by angst


Oh, I see. I must have misunderstood. I thought that we were talking about seeing the drivers working in the cars, of seeing the cars with their 'tails' out. I thought we were talking about drivers becoming a greater factor in the equation - but it seems we were talking about "carnage".... :rolleyes:

Is that really what you want to see?


Nothing wrong with a bit of carnage every now and then. :smoking:

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#40 brett_sequeira

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:42

I think you misunderstood me. No i don't want to see carnage and as i said before what happened at Australia was a one off.

#41 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 13:46

Originally posted by brett_sequeira
I think you misunderstood me. No i don't want to see carnage and as i said before what happened at Australia was a one off.


My unreserved apologies then, I did misunderstand your post.

#42 gio66

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:26

Originally posted by hajolyn


A few mistakes, less than this year, and I watched all FP sessions so know that. What's more important though is this:

6:26, Kova gets his rear wheels on the grass exactly as Kimi did yesterday, and various other people did in the FP sessions. Difference is, unlike the others this year, he didn't spin, thanks to TC kicking in and saving him. This means now drivers' mistakes are punished more.

Also in that clip, during FP & Qualifying the cars looked like they're on rails accelerating out of corners compared to this year; during race for the most part, we didn't see that, I guess it was a combination of heavy fuel loads & drivers not pushing 100% like (some of them) were at the end of Q2, but up until then, it had been brilliant to watch. Anyway, Melbourne is different to most tracks so let's see what it's like at Malaysia, but I think it's great to see the cars looking how they do now, and roll-on 2009 aero rules I say. Maybe Bridgestone can supply the cars with really durable tyres to encourage them to slide even more :p.


OK, but...

These are the clips of 2007 and 2008 start.





I ask you to do an experiment.

Take the time since the red lights turns off until the first car reaches the inner kerb.

If I'm not wrong, the time is 9"8 for the 2007 start and 9"6 for 2008.

How is possible this without TC?