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Why did Kimi not pit


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#1 Alfisti

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:01

Looked for this in other threads but it seems to be over looked to a degree.

I just re-watched the race and if his engine held together Kimi could have wonm the race if he's pitted under the SC. He'd have come out towards the end of the queue but not right at the back, he'd have been fuelled for the rest of the race. Second at the vey least.

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#2 Domination

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:02

Ferrari suffering from lack of Ross Brawn.

#3 Matt Hughes

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:04

I guess the theory was that they all had one more stop to do anyway, and so if Kimi stayed out and used his lower fuel level to carve past the McLarens he could have come in from the lead and got out of the pits in a bit more space.

That's presuming that he had more fuel onboard and that Ferrari just pitted him after the safety car because he'd gone off, not because he was just running on fumes...

#4 brett_sequeira

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:04

actually when the safety car came out and he was near the pits he had commited to go in and was on the pit lane entry but it was not open as yet so he pulled off and continued. now if he had gone in he would have been penalized so he had to wait out. anyway i just think he was caught out on the SC it was bad timing for him and kova

#5 Alfisti

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:18

Originally posted by brett_sequeira
actually when the safety car came out and he was near the pits he had commited to go in and was on the pit lane entry but it was not open as yet so he pulled off and continued. now if he had gone in he would have been penalized so he had to wait out. anyway i just think he was caught out on the SC it was bad timing for him and kova


Yeah but he had another lap after that, it just doesn't make any sense.

#6 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:21

Have any of you actually read the comments by Ferrari Team Boss Stefano Domenicali? they didn't pit Kimi under the safety car because it wouldn't have given him track position. Presumably the idea was to leave him out to see if he could gain some time and position on track.

#7 brett_sequeira

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:30

maybe they decided not to pit him and put him at the back of the pack because at the restart in the process of overtaking one of the other cars might have clipped his wing so the team decided to play cautious.

#8 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:36

Originally posted by Oho


How do you presume pitting just couple laps after the safety car would have been any better considering the bunched up field would have gone through the front straight at racing speed instead behind the safety car. Had he stopped during the SC he would have stood the best chance to stay ahead of all other single stoppers.


Well since I'm not on the pitwall and don't have access to information such as gaps to other cars etc, I'd like to believe that the people that do this season in season out with access to all the relevant information are in a better position to judge than an armchair expert. ;)

Strategies are not chosen like a game of pin the tail on the donkey!

The guys on the pitwall make calculations based on how the weight of fuel will influence the speed of the car and the performance of the tyres, as well as the relative positions of rivals on track to calculate when it is best to bring a driver in or leave him out. They obviously came to a conclusion leaving Kimi light would give him a chance to make some passes on track to gain position and the possibility to build up a lead, as opposed to fuelling him heavy and leaving him at the back of the pack having to overtake slower cars once again. Honda is a slower car and he didn't easily get past that did he?

It's all very well in hindsight thinking you know better, but your not the one on the pitwall with the information having to make a split second decision, are you?

#9 Alfisti

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:41

IMHO the screwed up in an enormous way. Lucky the engine died.

#10 Nobody

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by Chiara
Have any of you actually read the comments by Ferrari Team Boss Stefano Domenicali? they didn't pit Kimi under the safety car because it wouldn't have given him track position. Presumably the idea was to leave him out to see if he could gain some time and position on track.


Exactly, if he pitted under safety, he would have had the heaviest tank in the field and nine or ten cars infront of him, by the time he passed them, and/or got light enough to pull leading laptimes, the McLarens would have made up the time to stop again. Also in F1 top teams don't gamble on possible future safety car periods.

He had a stop to go, as did the McLarens, and was right behind in third, the idea was to win in a straight fight from there.

#11 yvonne.kk

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by Chiara
Have any of you actually read the comments by Ferrari Team Boss Stefano Domenicali? they didn't pit Kimi under the safety car because it wouldn't have given him track position. Presumably the idea was to leave him out to see if he could gain some time and position on track.


Yeah,KR wouldn't gain any position if he made the pitstop under SC,but when he came out, he was at most 5-6s behind LH due to SC leading,and all of cars before him needed to pit one more time than him.

And what about leaving him out? Even though he could overtake HK and LH,then lead the race for 3-4 laps, but how big gap could he increase? I think at most 5 second. And after KR's pitstop,he would be 20s behind the leader,and no doubt also at the back of field.

Unless KR could run more than 10 laps before pitstop,that was another story.

#12 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:51

I think it was a total brain meltdown in the Ferrari strategy centre. They expected him to pull like a 40-50 second gap on two-three laps so that he would not have to re-pass those who DID go in?

#13 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by yvonne.kk
Unless KR could run more than 10 laps before pitstop,that was another story.

If he could, it was another proof of a miss in the strategy. Why would they fuel him for 3/4 of the race AND start him on soft tyres?

#14 Durant

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:54

Originally posted by Chiara
Have any of you actually read the comments by Ferrari Team Boss Stefano Domenicali? they didn't pit Kimi under the safety car because it wouldn't have given him track position. Presumably the idea was to leave him out to see if he could gain some time and position on track.


Lunacy to expect Kimi to overtake a Mclaren on that track. He couldnt even overtake a honda for ages. The smart option would have been to pit and just overtake everyone when they pitted. They didnt play the odds and Kimi isnt the type of driver to think strategically.

#15 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:55

Originally posted by StefanV
I think it was a total brain meltdown in the Ferrari strategy centre. They expected him to pull like a 40-50 second gap on two-three laps so that he would not have to re-pass those who DID go in?


You know for certain that was what they were expecting to happen do you?

Perhaps they pulled him early after his spin when attempting to overtake Heikki and ending up in the gravel trap. Perhaps even going a few more laps would have meant he could not end up having to go right to the back of the pack and have to get stuck behind some slower cars and have to be forced to follow them around lap after lap struggling to overtake.

The team does what it has to do to maximise the situation as it currently stands based on the information they have a the time.

It realy does astonish me how many people are experts in the field of strategy, when they haven't got any access to the same information the team has :rolleyes:

#16 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:57

Originally posted by Durant
Kimi isnt the type of driver to think strategically.

Maybe not, but that is nothing you should even pretend to know anything about. In any case, they have strategy experts with plenty more data and overview than Kimi so there is absolutely no reason why Kimi should sit in the car thinking about pit strategy. He is told when to pit.

#17 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:59

Originally posted by Durant


Lunacy to expect Kimi to overtake a Mclaren on that track. He couldnt even overtake a honda for ages. The smart option would have been to pit and just overtake everyone when they pitted. They didnt play the odds and Kimi isnt the type of driver to think strategically.


Lunacy to think anyone could overtake a McLaren? oh I must have totally imagined Alonso overtaking Heikki then :rolleyes: no doubt he is the only person in the whole grid who can overtake a McLaren. Everyone else just pales into insignificance.

#18 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 14:59

Originally posted by Chiara

It realy does astonish me how many people are experts in the field of strategy, when they haven't got any access to the same information the team has :rolleyes:

You do not have to be an expert in the field of strategy to recognize a brain fade.

#19 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:02

Actually, I can even imagine that Kimi's kamikaze driving thereafter was a result of pure anger over the decisions from the strategists.

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#20 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:02

Originally posted by StefanV

You do not have to be an expert in the field of strategy to recognize a brain fade.


Well I suggest you get your CV into Ferrari then and we'll see in such circumstances if you can't do any better :p because given the fact you don't know what is going to happen next in such a race you have to make the best decision you can at the time based on the facts. As I said it's all very well in hindsight to think you'd do alot better.

#21 D A

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:03

You have to wonder how big the fuel tank in the Ferrari actually is. You'd lose less time if you pit during a SC phase than shorty after it (due to fuel tanks beeing empty) when the field is bunched up and you can't back to it directly after the pitstop. I presume Ferrari was taking a gamble to get Kimi into the pits before the pits was closed (and thus not losing the track position), but he was 10-15 seconds too late.

#22 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:03

Originally posted by Chiara


Well I suggest you get your CV into Ferrari then and we'll see in such circumstances if you can't do any better :p because given the fact you don't know what is going to happen next in such a race you have to make the best decision you can at the time based on the facts. As I said it's all very well in hindsight to think you'd do alot better.

I never said I could do better, I said they made the wrong decision. Actually, I could do better, but my humbleness forbids me to say so.

#23 Kooper

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:07

Originally posted by StefanV
If he could, it was another proof of a miss in the strategy. Why would they fuel him for 3/4 of the race AND start him on soft tyres?



Stefan, thats a good point you bring out on exactly why Ferrari should have pitted Kimi during SC. He simply wasn't going to make up enough ground in such few laps to justify staying out imo. Gap was more important than position at this point in the race. Kimi would have been at the back pitting under SC but much closer in time behind Hamilton & the rest. It didn't make any sense to me then and still doesn't, Domenicali's explanation doesn't ring true to me. It reminded me of strategy gaffes Honda regularly make.

#24 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:10

Originally posted by StefanV

I never said I could do better, I said they made the wrong decision. Actually, I could do better, but my humbleness forbids me to say so.


Right :rolleyes:

Well you know unless you work in an occupation where you have to make split second time critical decisions that are the difference between success and failure, its all too easy to stand in judgment and be a know-it-all armchair expert with the benefit of hindsight isn't it?

I don't think people fully understand how difficult that is. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong...you have to go with what information you have at that time.

#25 Kooper

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:18

Originally posted by Chiara

Well you know unless you work in an occupation where you have to make split second time critical decisions that are the difference between success and failure, its all too easy to stand in judgment and be a know-it-all armchair expert with the benefit of hindsight isn't it?

I don't think people fully understand how difficult that is. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong...you have to go with what information you have at that time.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the advantages of pitting during SC yellow as opposed to green flag... after all, Kimi had already show his & the teams intentions to pit under SC when he/team realized pits were closed. Ferrari screwed the pooch.

#26 Alfisti

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:30

Originally posted by Kooper



Stefan, thats a good point you bring out on exactly why Ferrari should have pitted Kimi during SC. He simply wasn't going to make up enough ground in such few laps to justify staying out imo. Gap was more important than position at this point in the race. Kimi would have been at the back pitting under SC but much closer in time behind Hamilton & the rest. It didn't make any sense to me then and still doesn't, Domenicali's explanation doesn't ring true to me. It reminded me of strategy gaffes Honda regularly make.


Exactly, there is no logic to it at all, at the bvery least the McLarens were gonna be hard to pass. Byt he time he gets by them he has to pit anyway.

Madness.

#27 hello86

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:35

Consider that if kimi had come to the box with the others (I think it was Kubica and Fernando) he would have got more fuel into his car than the others (and they still had some fuel into their tanks) which means that he would have lost some positions.

Maybe that was the reason why they did not call him into the pits.

#28 race

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:37

Originally posted by Chiara


Right :rolleyes:

Well you know unless you work in an occupation where you have to make split second time critical decisions that are the difference between success and failure, its all too easy to stand in judgment and be a know-it-all armchair expert with the benefit of hindsight isn't it?

I don't think people fully understand how difficult that is. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong...you have to go with what information you have at that time.


No one is saying it's easy and it's true everyone here has the benefit of hindsight, but it doesn't mean they are wrong. Someone suggested Ferrari made a mistake and more people seem to agree than disagree. I for one think they made a mistake and that it probably wouldn't have happened if Brawn was there to make the final decision. He seemed to be a cut above the rest in making these split-second decisions.

#29 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:41

Originally posted by Chiara



It realy does astonish me how many people are experts in the field of strategy, when they haven't got any access to the same information the team has :rolleyes:


Come on, if you have live timing up at home and follow it closely, there is not much more info you need.

So then, if KR had pitted on lap 29 (half race distance) he would have lost 6 positions and stayed ahead of his main competitiors - FA, NR, etc. as he was 3rd and Alonso came in very slowly because he was very low on fuel.

Pitting a couple of laps after - during the race- would have and did put him on the back of the field.


Sooo, you do not to be an expert, especially not if you are doing it for a long, long time and learned from the "best", like Baldisseri has (or hasn`t).

#30 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:42

Originally posted by race


No one is saying it's easy and it's true everyone here has the benefit of hindsight, but it doesn't mean they are wrong. Someone suggested Ferrari made a mistake and more people seem to agree than disagree. I for one think they made a mistake and that it probably wouldn't have happened if Brawn was there to make the final decision. He seemed to be a cut above the rest in making these split-second decisions.


Well, I`m not so sure about the Brawn that made decisions in 2005/2006 seasons...

#31 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:42

Originally posted by race


No one is saying it's easy and it's true everyone here has the benefit of hindsight, but it doesn't mean they are wrong. Someone suggested Ferrari made a mistake and more people seem to agree than disagree. I for one think they made a mistake and that it probably wouldn't have happened if Brawn was there to make the final decision. He seemed to be a cut above the rest in making these split-second decisions.


I think the reasoning behind the decision made at the time was that if they kept Kimi out on track he could gain some time advantage that might play into their hands later and maybe get him past even a handful of people he would otherwise have had to overtake on track if he had refuelled there and then, but apparently that is a completely insensible strategy some.

With hindsight it probably wasn't the best decision to go with, but my point is that at the time with the information the team had they probably felt that was the wisest thing to do. What annoys me is that without even knowing how much fuel Kimi still had, or even if his pitstop a few laps later was scheduled or not and not possibly in response to his spin and demotion to twelfth spot - some people seem to think they know better and could do better.

#32 undersquare

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:45

I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has the exact lap/SC details, but my memory is that he was called in shortly after the end of the SC period. When he came out that left him 16 seconds, I think, behind the last car, because during his stop the field was both bunched up and travelling at racing speed. If that is correct then that was the worst time to bring him in, if he'd come in earlier he could at least have caught up the back of the field before the SC came in.

#33 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:45

Originally posted by peroa


Come on, if you have live timing up at home and follow it closely, there is not much more info you need.


No? I wonder why the teams spends hours and hours studying hundreds of data parameters then, and have a whole horde of analysts behind the scenes studying the live information and how the car is performing...when all they really need is someone at home with live timing. :p

#34 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:45

Well, it`s not like he tows the ExxonValdez behind him.

#35 Chiara

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:47

Originally posted by undersquare
I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has the exact lap/SC details, but my memory is that he was called in shortly after the end of the SC period. When he came out that left him 16 seconds, I think, behind the last car, because during his stop the field was both bunched up and travelling at racing speed. If that is correct then that was the worst time to bring him in, if he'd come in earlier he could at least have caught up the back of the field before the SC came in.


Yes but you have to take into consideration shortly after the SC period Kimi spun the car and stuck it into the gravel trap which was probably not according to strategy.

Anyway I could be here all afternoon arguing until I'm blue in the face and really I can't be bothered with it :p so please carry on by all means without me ;)

#36 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:47

Originally posted by Chiara


No? I wonder why the teams spends hours and hours studying hundreds of data parameters then, and have a whole horde of analysts behind the scenes studying the live information and how the car is performing...when all they really need is someone at home with live timing. :p


Apparently to fu** it up ...

#37 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:50

Originally posted by undersquare
I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has the exact lap/SC details, but my memory is that he was called in shortly after the end of the SC period. When he came out that left him 16 seconds, I think, behind the last car, because during his stop the field was both bunched up and travelling at racing speed. If that is correct then that was the worst time to bring him in, if he'd come in earlier he could at least have caught up the back of the field before the SC came in.


Even if we count that spin as 10 seconds, he still would have been last, which highly probably wouldn`t happen if he pitted under SC.

#38 Alfisti

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by Chiara

What annoys me is that without even knowing how much fuel Kimi still had, or even if his pitstop a few laps later was scheduled or not and not possibly in response to his spin and demotion to twelfth spot - some people seem to think they know better and could do better.


All the commentators (Speed and ITV) were puzzled, I was puzzled, basically everyone other than Ferrari and yourself were boggled as to why they did not pit right away.

It makes zero sense now and made zero sense at the time, an absolute clusterfuck.

#39 undersquare

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:09

Originally posted by Chiara


Yes but you have to take into consideration shortly after the SC period Kimi spun the car and stuck it into the gravel trap which was probably not according to strategy.

Anyway I could be here all afternoon arguing until I'm blue in the face and really I can't be bothered with it :p so please carry on by all means without me ;)


OK well I had a look at the lap chart. (http://www.fia.com/s...ralia/2008.html

The SC came out on lap 25, kimi went off when it came in on lap 30. But in a 58-lap race he was already over half way when he went off, how much further could he have gone? Even gaining 3 seconds a lap on the tail-enders he was only going to make 6 or 9 seconds on them at the most, if he was due in on lap 32 or 33. Since he ended up 16 seconds adrift the numbers seem to say leaving him out was a strategy mistake, irrespective of the off.

If it made him a bit more desperate to get past Heikki then that also went badly.

Not to gloat or say it was easy, but the whole idea of F1 is that we're watching the best of the best. Some errors are obvious, and some have to be worked out.

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#40 inaki

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:18

I do not know if everybody knows it, but you cannot refuel under Safety Car or you get a penalty.

#41 Durant

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:22

Originally posted by inaki
I do not know if everybody knows it, but you cannot refuel under Safety Car or you get a penalty.


The pitlane opens under the SC after a certain time period and you can refuel. Alonso did during the first SC.

#42 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:22

Originally posted by inaki
I do not know if everybody knows it, but you cannot refuel under Safety Car or you get a penalty.


:confused:

Sure you can when the pitlane opens. :rolleyes:

#43 undersquare

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:22

Originally posted by inaki
I do not know if everybody knows it, but you cannot refuel under Safety Car or you get a penalty.


Everybody else pitted on lap 29, when the pits reopened.

#44 Atic Atac

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:24

Pedro de la Rosa works as a comentator for the Spanish TV. When he saw that kimi wasnt pitting he just couldn´t beleive it, as it was such an obvious mistake.

Curiously, a little bit sooner, he was telling that LH should enter the pits before scheduled to protect his position just at the same moment that the team decided to get him in for the 1st pit stop.... and that decision helped LH to win the race, as many rivals got stuck when that SC was deployed.

#45 inaki

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:24

Originally posted by peroa


:confused:

Sure you can when the pitlane opens. :rolleyes:


How is the mechanical of it ? Between both terms of car position remapping ?

#46 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:25

Originally posted by inaki


How is the mechanical of it ? Between both terms of car position remapping ?


Dude, what are you on?

#47 Atic Atac

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:26

Originally posted by inaki


How is the mechanical of it ? Between both terms of car position remapping ?


Pit get´s close when the SC is deployed, and keeps closed till all the cars make a queue after him. Then (even if the SC keeps running) you can enter the pit.

#48 inaki

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:38

Originally posted by peroa


Dude, what are you on?


Sorry Peroa, i did not read new rules of SC, that I know have changed

#49 noikeee

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:44

Originally posted by Alfisti


All the commentators (Speed and ITV) were puzzled, I was puzzled, basically everyone other than Ferrari and yourself were boggled as to why they did not pit right away.

It makes zero sense now and made zero sense at the time, an absolute clusterfuck.


Yep. This was at least on par with the mess they made out of the strategies at Fuji. I can't think of any other reasons for this to happen other than having someone incompetent making the calls.

Had Kimi came in as soon as he could (in the second lap of safety car), the safety car would've played perfectly into his hands. Instead they chose to risk a pass on a McLaren then put him several seconds behind the back of the field (would've happened anyway even if he had pulled off that pass). "Track position" would've never made up for the advantage of being there in the safety car queue, even if near the back, with enough fuel to reach the finish.

It isn't a matter of hindsight since at the time there was no logic for it.

#50 StefanV

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 16:51

Thing is, it was not a split second decision either. They had an ocean of time while the pit was closed to come to the correct decision. They didn't. Maybe they had too much time?