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'Almost-moves' in CART/USAC/IRL


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#101 HistoryFan

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:32

Keke Rosberg said that Paul Newman wanted him to drive for the injured Mario Andretti in 1992.

 

And Thierry Boutsen was very near to change to IndyCar. But I don't know for what team.



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#102 HistoryFan

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 09:51

Berger said he was close to move to IndyCar in 1985 if the deal with Arrows couldn't get together. He said it was with Derek Daly's team, so it must had been Tom Hess Racing.



#103 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 13:01

Newman Haas wanted Hill to replace Mansell for 1995 and offered 6 mio dollars.



#104 B Squared

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 13:36

With all due respect HF, I've followed IndyCar for 55 of my 60 years on this earth. This is another one that I've never heard of. Not saying it's untrue, possibly I missed it. However; during this time I took Autosport, IndyCar, On Track, Autoweek, National Speed Sport News and the daily Indy Star. I'd sure like to see the links or copies of the press clippings you've gotten it from. Thanks, I look forward to it, never too old to learn.

#105 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 13:40

it's from Grand Prix Story 1995, Heinz Prüller.



#106 opplock

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 17:28

it's from Grand Prix Story 1995, Heinz Prüller.


Motor racing's equivalent to Baron Munchausen? My favourite Prüller anecdote (courtesy of HF) remains Jochen Rindt's turning down a McLaren drive for 1970 because he wanted to race in CanAm. A story I am familiar with but usually with Chris Amon being the driver in question.

#107 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 19:35

Prüller was very close to Rindt.



#108 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 15:44

Prüller was very close to Rindt.

 

and EVERY Austrian who was close or making it into F1 for that matter......



#109 opplock

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 19:23

Damon Hill doesn't mention a Newman Haas offer in his autobiography despite writing about difficult contractual negotiations with Williams during 1994.    



#110 HistoryFan

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 01:34

Bruni said to me he already signed a contract with Newman Haas in 2004 but then he jumped to Formula One.



#111 HistoryFan

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:28

Roland Ratzenberger signed a contract with Dick Simon für 1992 - don't know why he didn't drive.

Alain Prost confirmed an entry for the Indy 500 in 1992 with either Haas or Penske - not just as driver, also as a team owner

Keke Rosberg was in talks for street courses in 1992

Manuel Reuter also had an option to drive IndyCar in 1992 for a new team by Vern Schuppan.



#112 HistoryFan

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 20:48

Frentzen was testing with Truesport in 1991

And he was close of signing for Bobby Rahal for 1999.



#113 ensign14

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 21:12

 

Alain Prost confirmed an entry for the Indy 500 in 1992 with either Haas or Penske - not just as driver, also as a team owner

Keke Rosberg was in talks for street courses in 1992

Manuel Reuter also had an option to drive IndyCar in 1992 for a new team by Vern Schuppan.

 

Are these more that Heinz Pruller pulled out of his arse?  They all sound utter, utter bollocks.



#114 E1pix

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 06:30

Frentzen was testing with Truesport in 1991.

Considering that Scott Pruett nearly lost his legs for Truesport in 1990, yet remained a supportive team player during his recovery, I find it extremely hard to imagine that Steve Horne would have even considered replacing Pruett in 1991 enough to even test *anyone*.

#115 HistoryFan

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 13:00

Are these more that Heinz Pruller pulled out of his arse?  They all sound utter, utter bollocks.

 

no that all comes from Motorsport aktuell, 1991.
 



#116 HistoryFan

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 14:29

Dale Earnhardt had an offer from John Menard for the Indy 500 in the mid-90s:

 



#117 GMiranda

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Posted 16 November 2021 - 18:51

Roland Ratzenberger signed a contract with Dick Simon für 1992 - don't know why he didn't drive.

Alain Prost confirmed an entry for the Indy 500 in 1992 with either Haas or Penske - not just as driver, also as a team owner

Keke Rosberg was in talks for street courses in 1992

Manuel Reuter also had an option to drive IndyCar in 1992 for a new team by Vern Schuppan.

Roland Ratzenberger had signed, or it was pending on sponsorship?

As far as I know, Ratzenberger never progressed much in single-seaters because he lacked money, so he went to Japan. In 1992, he drove in Japan in Group C for Toyota Team SARD, Touring cars for a BMW team (he was BMW driver on the ETCC before) and the Japanese F3000. Perhaps he was paid in Japan and, as I believe, he always dreamed of F1, so he decided to focus on that.



#118 GMiranda

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Posted 16 November 2021 - 19:04

Derek Daly and Geoff Brabham were both in line to drive the Galles team spare March in a few late 1983 season races - didn't happen, though, as Galles sold the car to Bill Alsup.

Daly was also considered a likely candidate for John Fitzpatrick's new team in 1984, running the Ligier Indy Car, but the financing could not be secured. Maybe "Fitz" can elaborate here? :cat:

Stefan Johansson and Jonathan Palmer had talks with Mo Nunn, team manager of Bignotti-Cotter Racing in late 1983, but the team signed Roberto Guerrero in the end.

Johnny Rutherford hoped to sign for Mayer Motor Racing, and Jacques Villeneuve was being courted by Shierson Racing in 1984, but the latter prefered to run Shierson's 1983 cars in his own team, and JR only landed the part-time second seat at Shierson, driving Danny Sullivan's spare car at Indy.

I read that Fitzpatrick planned to expand into CART in 1984, with a customer March chassis and J.David sponsorship and Stefan Johansson as a driver. However, J.David's support collapsed due to fraud in 1983 (?), so I presume it was the main reason the plan didn't advance.



#119 WonderWoman61

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 20:48


Nigel Mansell was originally contracted to Newman-Haas Racing until the end of 1995.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 05 March 2023 - 16:29.


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#120 d j fox

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 22:52

1986 Ferrari 637 Intended for CART Tested briefly but never raced

#121 WonderWoman61

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 23:07

1986 Ferrari 637 Intended for CART Tested briefly but never raced


Much like the Lotus 96T.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 22 December 2021 - 23:08.


#122 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 09:38

we already had a thread like that:

 

https://forums.autos... almost moves



#123 WonderWoman61

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 10:08

The infamous Eagle Aircraft Flyer Special that Ken Hamilton tried and failed to qualify for the 1982 Indy 500.

#124 WonderWoman61

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 10:30

A few from the 2003 Champ Car Season:

There was the stillborn BC Motorsports team that intended to run Giorgio Pantano.

NASCAR driver Kurt Busch tested for Team Rahal but Bobby Rahal had already signed Michel Jourdain Jr.

F3000 teams Arden and the short-lived Brand Motorsport were linked with entries, the latter would have brought back Nicolas Minassian, the former could have had something to do with the fact that one of their drivers that year was Townsend Bell who had recently driven for Patrick Racing.

The late Justin Wilson was linked to Newman-Haas Racing before signing for Minardi in F1.

André Lotterer was linked to a full-time switch to Champ Car after his one-off outing with Dale Coyne Racing in 2002.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 23 December 2021 - 10:32.


#125 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 21:51

Perhaps this thread should be merged with that thread?


Done.

#126 WonderWoman61

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 21:57

Cor Euser was offered the seat at Tony Bettenhausen's team for 1992 that ended up going to Stefan Johansson.

#127 WonderWoman61

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 16:30

we already had a thread like that:

https://forums.autos... almost moves

I don't think this comment is really necessary anymore.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 05 March 2023 - 18:45.


#128 WonderWoman61

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 18:44

Done.


Or this one.

#129 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 06 March 2023 - 14:09

Here’s one I don't think I have posted before (forgive me if I have). If Ryan Briscoe had not been able to take up the Luczo Dragon drive at Indy in 2007 (a Team Penske ride in all but name) then Buddy Rice was going to be put in the car.

#130 WonderWoman61

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Posted 06 March 2023 - 16:19

Here’s one I don't think I have posted before (forgive me if I have). If Ryan Briscoe had not been able to take up the Luczo Dragon drive at Indy in 2007 (a Team Penske ride in all but name) then Buddy Rice was going to be put in the car.


Not here you haven't, until now, just done the research.

#131 E1pix

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 00:46

Bob Lazier was to drive for Rattlesnake Racing in '83, but decided to help his son (who he? ;)) in his downhill skiing career instead.

There may have been an offer, but I’m not sure if Bob really considered it...

He promised Buddy he’d quit Indy cars when a friend and former, fellow and somewhat local up-and-comer in F-Ford and F-Atlantic Gordon Smiley was killed.

#132 WonderWoman61

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 10:44

Derek Warwick tested for the Hall/VDS team in 1992 and was a contender for a race seat with them for 1994.

#133 WonderWoman61

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 16:00

Norberto Fontana could have been in the 1996 Chip Ganassi seat that went to Alex Zanardi. Mo Nunn actually suggested the Argentine.

#134 HistoryFan

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 12:08

there were a lot of F1 drivers rumoured or interested in IndyCar and I would like to see there more nowadays.



#135 WonderWoman61

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 19:33

there were a lot of F1 drivers rumoured or interested in IndyCar and I would like to see there more nowadays.


Who wouldn't?

#136 HistoryFan

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:03

Nicholas Latifi was rumoured to Ganassi for 2023 as well as Kimi Räikkönen.



#137 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 08:52

Can't believe no one has mentioned Ayrton Senna testing for Penske in 1993 and Roger Penske wanting Senna to drive for him in that year's Indy 500 until now.

#138 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 15:14

I don't think this comment is really necessary anymore.

 

I don't think this comment is really necessary.



#139 Beri

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 21:36

Can't believe no one has mentioned Ayrton Senna testing for Penske in 1993 and Roger Penske wanting Senna to drive for him in that year's Indy 500 until now.

 

With all due respect, that was just a marketing stunt. Nothing more, nothing less. Provided by Marlboro and put in place by Fittipaldi and Senna themselves. For one to grab headlines all over the world once more and for the other to pressure his team in F1 to hand him a better contract.



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#140 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 21:52

Sure didn’t feel like a “Marketing stunt” but then what would I know.

I’m intrigued to know why Emerson Fittipaldi would feel the need to “grab headlines all over the world once more”? What’s the reasoning there, given that he was coming off a race winning season where he was earning a lot of money driving for the most prestigious team in America and would go on to win three more, including the Indy 500, in 1993?

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 15 March 2023 - 22:48.


#141 WonderWoman61

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 22:17

I don't think this comment is really necessary.

Look who's talking.

In the meantime

The NeoGen Indycar that Eddie Cheever was lined up to drive in 1994.
Neogen-Aerial.jpg?resize=592%2C570&ssl=1

Edited by WonderWoman61, 16 March 2023 - 13:55.


#142 Beri

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 10:32


Sure didn’t feel like a “Marketing stunt” but then what would I know.
 
I’m intrigued to know why Emerson Fittipaldi would feel the need to “grab headlines all over the world once more”? What’s the reasoning there, given that he was coming off a race winning season where he was earning a lot of money driving for the most prestigious team in America and would go on to win three more, including the Indy 500, in 1993?
 
Well Im happy to be proven wrong by someone like you Nigel. I humbly would eat a lot of pie for this alone  ;)
 
But on Fittipaldi, he indeed did very well for himself and grabbed the headlines by his great performances alone. Yet it is widely known he surely didnt dislike being in the center of attention. And despite my quoted part not being founded upon anything, I can very much imagine Fittipaldi seeing it as a positive thing to help out Senna with a test for the aforementioned reason. But perhaps my wording should have been different on this.


#143 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 11:19

The thing about the Senna test, and I’ve talked about it ad nauseam, is that it was very ad hoc. The main reason for us being at Firebird West was to run the PC 22 for the first time so the Senna thing was something of a distraction. The PC 22 was a completely new car so there was plenty to be excited about already. There was no detail planning or anything with regard to Senna. It just happened in terms of the message came from Team Management that we were going to give him a run in the car. He didn’t come to Reading for a cockpit fitting. We didn’t make a seat for him. We just handled it all on the day when he showed up for the first time that morning. It’s certainly wasn’t a big thing cooked up by Marlboro to somehow get column inches. Emerson and Senna were close friends to the extent that when Senna was killed it just so happened that Emerson was testing at Michigan at the time, and he was so distraught and upset of the news, naturally, that the team abandoned the test. I have seen other famous drivers shrug off fatalities, but not in this case.

So, at the time of all of the Mansell hubbub about coming to CART, one can easily see why Senna’s curiosity would’ve been piqued and why it was a useful negotiating tool for him and an intriguing Plan B for him to consider. Don’t forget that, although Penske and McLaren were both sponsored by Marlboro, our deal was through Philip Morris in the United States and the McLaren deal was through a completely separate arrangement funded in Europe. It was not a carefully planned or coordinated thing from the Marlboro empire. Senna showed up just with John Hogan in tow, but no entourage or no big press pack. No evidence of it being a Marketing stunt. We were a serious team doing serious work, not a circus act playing games.for Ayrton Senna. The stuff about him potentially running at Indy seems to me to be complete fantasy or taking two and two and stretching it a long way to make five. There was no enthusiasm within the immediate team for taking him to PIR to run on the Oval just after Firebird so that he could at least see what that was like. You have to really respect those places, and it took Mansell not much time at all to find that out. We didn’t need to take the risk.

My impression from speaking to Senna and working with him and doing the things we did was that he was just genuinely interested in what a contemporary IndyCar was like and was very pleasantly surprised. He seemed to really enjoy the more traditional connection between driver and machine and that’s no surprise because those cars were in some areas and in some ways a mixture of contemporary Formula One technology and the specialist technology necessitated by racing in America to the CART rule set. it’s certainly would be an ignorant opinion to think that somehow CART cars were hugely technologically inferior to Formula One cars of the time. There were definitely some things that we had or did that were far in advance of Formula One or at least paralleling top F1 teams. We even indirectly made our own engines.

Regarding Emerson… he was a tremendous team player in 1993. Paul Tracy replaced Rick in mid 92 and the relationship between PT and Emmo was always warm, helpful and just what you wanted. Nothing hidden. Paul and I shared everything with Emerson and Grant Newbury. There was no need, and no instance, of Emerson needing to assert or promote or remind us of his legendary status. He was just all class all the time. That’s why I kind of bristled at the assertion that, somehow, Emerson needed to indulge in some self promotion. He’s Emerson Fittipaldi for goodness’ sake!

#144 Beri

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 12:31

Fantastic stuff that you are sharing here Nigel. Thank you so much. Your insights disprove every article I have ever read regarding "the test". The mainstream media that I did follow on this subject, did make it come across as a well coordinated effort into aiding Senna for the best option for his career. The involvement of Marlboro on that matter was also used as underlinement on that. So I have formed my opinion on nothing more than just false articles. Hence I did call it a marketing stunt. And like I've said, Im very happy to be proven wrong on this and I thourougly enjoy reading your first hand experiences regarding this. So thank you again.

 

On Fittipaldi, there is the matter that I had a relationship once with a Brazilian woman who lived over here in The Netherlands together with her family. I remember her father, who was an avid Senna fan and simply couldnt shut up about it, being really negative on Fittipaldi. That he always sought the media in Brazil and always tried to be on the top of everyones mind when one would think about racing. Even when I did point out the mammoth career that Fittipaldi has had, he would disregard this and always played it down. It was at that time that I had the relationship that the whole Castroneves-Fittipaldi mismanagement saga was played out in front of court and this was used to prove the point of Fittipaldi being a bad man. And I guess I never took the moment to reflect on that and so that opinion on his personality has stuck with me ever since.

 

Regarding the professionalism and technique involved in CART at that day and age, I sincerely think that your team did show to the world how it was done in the best way. Simply that one can dominate by interpreting the rules quite well. And the foundations for that must have been laid not very long after Senna had tested at Firebird, or perhaps were laid already back then, because that famous dominating Mercedes engine first ran in (if I recall it correctly) January 1994. I think the level of professionalism, secrecy and utter determination on that project from Penske as well as Mercedes was a complete new benchmark that even no F1 team had met before. So I really am not of the opinion that F1 was far superior around that era. And going by aesthetics alone, I think the CART chassis were in a league of their own in how good they looked. Still to this day I think CART provided the world with the best looking racing cars.



#145 E1pix

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 15:26

Thank You both for the last three posts, fabulous stuff!

#146 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 19:49

Hi Beri

 

I wasn't saying that you had implied that CART cars were very basic in comparison to F1 - rather, that anyone holding such an opinion would be wrong. These days the gap is enormous, but many fundamentals have changed in the past 30 years or so.

 

Regarding Emerson again, he was no saint, as the former Mrs. Fittipaldis would surely attest, and some of the stories we heard of their domestic "bliss" were hilarious. But in the English speaking world at that time he was all charm, class and vulpine grin. I wouldn't know if he was mischievous with the Brazilian press. 

 

For me, working with Emerson was real "pinch yourself" stuff. I first met him when I was 15 at the 1974 Race of Champions. My dad took me into the front of the McLaren truck to introduce me to him. It was the first and only time in my life I was ever dumbstruck. To find myself working with him as a team mate 18 years later was literally unbelievable for me. 


Edited by Nigel Beresford, 16 March 2023 - 21:18.


#147 Andretti Fan

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Posted 17 March 2023 - 00:46

Nigel Sir! If you haven't already written a book about your career, please do so!

#148 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 March 2023 - 09:50

Ha ha, that would require a lot of spare time and a good memory, neither of which i have!



#149 Beri

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Posted 17 March 2023 - 12:06

I find that hard to believe on the memory bit, considering what you have inked down above   ;)

Should you ever consider doing a book, then you got me as a buyer!