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Penny pinching on the second driver


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#1 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 13:32

Nakajima, Glock and Piquet need to get a jiggle on (some would say DC too but not quite IMHO). Not sure what the commercial arrangements are for these three drivers but they are being badly out driven by not only their team mate but the number 1 driver from the opposing mid field teams.

Points are like gold in the mid field with only maybe 3 points (7th and 8th) available most weekends, really, the money involved in finishing 4th versus 8th in the WCC is worth how many milions?

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#2 BlackCat

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 13:42

i'd say Glock is quite good and if he can keep Alonso behind him some more times there is not much you can want from him. Williams obviously has to have some japanese link and Nakajima is not the worst possible candidate. Renault again has another kind of problems, #2 driver has to back away to keep Alonso happy. so for me even bigger question is why Honda is keeping two #2 drivers.

#3 metz

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 14:53

Today was Glock's best race of the year... :up:

#4 gerry nassar

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:01

I think Glock will get better as time goes by. He was solid today and the midfield is so competitive that good drives wont always be rewarded with points.

Nakajima has speed but cant put it all together. He'll be around as long as Williams have Toyota engines.

Piquet Jr on the other hand is a bit of a dud. I'd put him in the Pizzonia/Burti camp. He wont last that long in F1. Still 3 races is probably a little early to make such a harsh judgement - but its not looking too good.

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:01

They're all rookies with very good teammates. Interesting, that.

#6 acey

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:06

I guess that Sutil isn’t very happy either. Fisi, as expected in a crap car without any expectations, is shining compared to Sutil. Imagine that people wanted Sutil in the second McLaren not to long ago.

#7 Imperial

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:09

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They're all rookies with very good teammates. Interesting, that.


As was Lewis Hamilton with Fernando Alonso last season... :rolleyes:

Fact is that neither Piquet or Nakajima are staying anywhere near in touch with their teammates as they should be, Glock slightly less so but as he isn't actually a rookie that should be the case.

DC has gone immensely off the boil this season and to cause the same accident twice within three races is just an embarrasment really.

#8 Atreiu

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:10

With gearbox problems even before the race began, I'm not sure what you guys wanted Piquet to do.

#9 Josta

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:11

Originally posted by acey
I guess that Sutil isn’t very happy either. Fisi, as expected in a crap car without any expectations, is shining compared to Sutil. Imagine that people wanted Sutil in the second McLaren not to long ago.


It just goes to show how really bad Albers was.

#10 Orin

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:12

Originally posted by Alfisti
Nakajima, Glock and Piquet need to get a jiggle on (some would say DC too but not quite IMHO). Not sure what the commercial arrangements are for these three drivers but they are being badly out driven by not only their team mate but the number 1 driver from the opposing mid field teams.

Points are like gold in the mid field with only maybe 3 points (7th and 8th) available most weekends, really, the money involved in finishing 4th versus 8th in the WCC is worth how many milions?


Glock doesn't look great, but what could Piquet do with a car with no 2nd gear on the installation lap and which conks out shortly afterwards?

#11 selespeed

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:13

Originally posted by gerry nassar

Piquet Jr on the other hand is a bit of a dud. I'd put him in the Pizzonia/Burti camp. He wont last that long in F1. Still 3 races is probably a little early to make such a harsh judgement - but its not looking too good.


i think you are a little too harsh...he had a great start..overtook around 4 people in the first corner without going wide...i don't know what happened when he spun though...was it him or somebody touched him...overtook bourdais in a nice manuover.
lewis hamilton was behind him when he had car problems...it would be fun to see them battle on track.
...just remembered that he reported problems with selecting 2nd gear on the warm up lap.

#12 Imperial

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:16

Originally posted by Atreiu
With gearbox problems even before the race began, I'm not sure what you guys wanted Piquet to do.


For a start he could have got off the race track when it was blatantly obvious his car was in trouble. Instead he was yet another pillock who insists on crawling around 3/4 of a lap away from the pits while all around are closing down on him at a 150mph closing speed.

#13 Orin

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:24

Originally posted by Imperial


For a start he could have got off the race track when it was blatantly obvious his car was in trouble. Instead he was yet another pillock who insists on crawling around 3/4 of a lap away from the pits while all around are closing down on him at a 150mph closing speed.


I'm surprised Renault didn't start him in the pitlane, no second gear was always likely to create havoc off the start.

#14 DarthWillie

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 15:27

Originally posted by Josta


It just goes to show how really bad Albers was.


Or how poorly Sutil is adjusting to life without TC?

#15 Jason

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 16:17

Originally posted by Alfisti
Nakajima, Glock and Piquet need to get a jiggle on (some would say DC too but not quite IMHO). Not sure what the commercial arrangements are for these three drivers but they are being badly out driven by not only their team mate but the number 1 driver from the opposing mid field teams.

Points are like gold in the mid field with only maybe 3 points (7th and 8th) available most weekends, really, the money involved in finishing 4th versus 8th in the WCC is worth how many milions?

I heard Williams are actually saving millions on their engines by having Nakajima on their team. Regarding Glock, over the past few years Toyota over-paid for Ralf's services and where did it get them? At least give the guy a chance.

#16 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:10

Originally posted by metz
Today was Glock's best race of the year... :up:


and he finished what, 35 seconds behind Trulli. That's kinda my point i am afraid.

#17 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:11

Originally posted by Orin


Glock doesn't look great, but what could Piquet do with a car with no 2nd gear on the installation lap and which conks out shortly afterwards?


We've had three races this year.

#18 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:12

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They're all rookies with very good teammates. Interesting, that.


I don't understand the relevance. So put your hand in your wallet and acquire a quicker, experienced driver.

#19 metz

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:25

Originally posted by Alfisti


and he finished what, 35 seconds behind Trulli. That's kinda my point i am afraid.

We've had three races this year.

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#20 giacomo

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:28

Originally posted by Alfisti


I don't understand the relevance. So put your hand in your wallet and acquire a quicker, experienced driver.

Right. No mercy for rookies.

BTW, if teambosses would share your attitude, Kovalainen already would be an ex F1 driver.

#21 blackhand2010

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:31

Originally posted by Alfisti


I don't understand the relevance. So put your hand in your wallet and acquire a quicker, experienced driver.


Who though? Who is out there in the GP2 field, America, or ex F1, with the relevant experience, that's going to any better?

#22 Zarathustra

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:37

I thought Glock looked pretty good at times today and in Melbourne. Piquet was doing well to go as fast as he was today, and with Alonso as his benchmark it's going to be hard to look good. Sutil hasn't looked great, and Nakajima doesn't have the consistency he needs. It'd be nice if Williams could afford to ditch him, and they could have raised that money by selling Rosberg to McLaren, but I don't know who they'd have had then. Kovi and Liuzzi maybe? It must be difficult in the midfield to pick the right driver pairing really.

#23 giacomo

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:40

Pat Symonds on Piquet:

"Before the start of the season a lot of people were wondering how it would go and when he had a very difficult Australian Grand Prix it probably just served to focus on 'Was it all going to go wrong?'
"But he bounced back in Malaysia very strongly and he has been extremely strong here. I know ultimately that (team mate) Fernando (Alonso) outqualified him but that is nothing to be ashamed of," added the Briton.
"Through practice Nelson was doing a damn good job in developing the car and really getting on with it, so I am very pleased with the start to his year other than the fact that I feel we as a team have let him down a bit."


But hey, who's Symonds? Piquet should be kicked out of F1 immediately.

#24 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 21:56

I'm not talking about replacing anyone now, put them in and you need to give them a season at least. What I mean is, some teams went cheap instead of paying up for a point scoring number 2 and they may pay the price for it. What's it worth $$$ and cents wise from 4th to 8th in the CC?

As for HK, he's another that needs to show some spark, looks flat as a tack.

#25 runggald

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:14

Originally posted by Josta


It just goes to show how really bad Albers was.


Or maybe it shows how good Fisi really is and always was.

The gap between Sutil and Fisi has been huge. Fisi has been on average 0.5 to 0.8 seconds faster in all nine practice sessions so far, all 3 qualifyings, and again yesterday in Bahrain his fastest lap was 0.4 seconds faster than Sutil's.

Amazingly, Fisi's fastest lap (a 1:35.0) was a tenth quicker than either Alonso's or Piquet's in the Renault and 11th best overall.

#26 Jason

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:32

Originally posted by Alfisti


I don't understand the relevance. So put your hand in your wallet and acquire a quicker, experienced driver.

Why don't you list these drivers? Toyota was stupid enough to overpay Ralf Schumacher for many years and what did it get them?

#27 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:51

ralf has beaten jarno every year except the last one

#28 Jason

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 17:36

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
ralf has beaten jarno every year except the last one

Ralf was only on the team for three years and earning 4x as much as Trulli. He shouldn't have gotten beaten at all. Moreover, Toyota's performance dropped every year he was there. I don't see any logical way they could justify paying that high of a salary for what they got in return.

#29 Imperial

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 22:06

Originally posted by Alfisti
As for HK, he's another that needs to show some spark, looks flat as a tack.


Yep, he's every inch a classic cruise-and-collect driver.

Unless he changes fast he'll end up being the new Coulthard at Mclaren - reliable points finisher, zero chance of ever being in serious title contention.

#30 Alfisti

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 22:34

I hate to do this but again it was Alonso, Webber, Trulli, Rosberg after a few laps .... all the number II's behind the opposing lead driver.

It's at the point where whichever second driver adapts the quickest then that team may just grab 4th (unless Renault find another half second).

#31 noikeee

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 22:36

Well Nakajima had his best weekend so far, although Rosberg jumped him at the start. Funny how Nakajima seemed a bit of a stereotypical japanese kamikaze driver in GP2, but in F1 he has somehow collected points in the attrition races (today and in Melbourne - and yes I know in Melbourne he did his best to avoid collecting points by hitting Kubica).

#32 cathal

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 23:03

He wont last that long in F1. Still 3 races is probably a little early to make such a harsh judgement - but its not looking too good. [/B]


Alot of people said the same about Heikki this time last year. Now look where he is driving.

#33 Haddock

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 23:07

Originally posted by Josta


It just goes to show how really bad Albers was.


Hmm, except Albers was quicker than Monteiro, who was quicker than Karthikeyan....

I think Fisi is one of those guys who performs really well until he's in a really quick car and the pressure is on...

#34 cathal

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 23:07

Originally posted by Jason

I heard Williams are actually saving millions on their engines by having Nakajima on their team.


And he ain't too bad either, certainly worth those millions then.

#35 Alfisti

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 14:25

Again this weekend. Not one of them was abnle to out qualify their team mate or get in front during the race.

Maybe Davidson or Sato are worth a call?

#36 noikeee

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 14:50

Nakajima didn't have a chance after being taken out by Fisi.

Glock was easily beaten by Trulli, yes. Same with Coulthard. But both were on different strategies, and Glock suffered from a problem in the 2nd qualifying session that put him in a crap position in the grid, after he had done very well in Q1. He's been a bit disappointing, certainly doing worse than what Ralf used to do compared to Trulli (which is surprising to me), but I sense there's some potential there.

Piquet was just plain bad this weekend, miles away from Alonso. He can't afford many more of this weekends, otherwise his F1 career is going to be very short.

#37 Group B

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They're all rookies with very good teammates. Interesting, that.

What he said.

#38 Knot

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:04

Originally posted by cathal


And he ain't too bad either, certainly worth those millions then.


Yep, I figured he'd be rubbish, and am happy that he isn't.

Piquet on the other hand...

#39 molive

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:23

Originally posted by paranoik0
Nakajima didn't have a chance after being taken out by Fisi.

Glock was easily beaten by Trulli, yes. Same with Coulthard. But both were on different strategies, and Glock suffered from a problem in the 2nd qualifying session that put him in a crap position in the grid, after he had done very well in Q1. He's been a bit disappointing, certainly doing worse than what Ralf used to do compared to Trulli (which is surprising to me), but I sense there's some potential there.

Piquet was just plain bad this weekend, miles away from Alonso. He can't afford many more of this weekends, otherwise his F1 career is going to be very short.


Naka has been quite good, imho. He's making Rosberg look like average, and Williams seem to rate NR very highly.

Glock, otoh, has been on and off, and Trully is no slouch. So, I'd give him more time.

Piquet, oh well, we all know he aint at Renault to really be a match to Alonso. Regardless, he has shown that, once he knows well the track (which was the case in Barcelona) he run close to FA. Still, I admit he aint impressing and should improve in the next couple races.



Sadly for these guys, its not getting any easier, as the next race is Monaco, where all their teamates have done well in the past seasons.

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#40 noikeee

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:05

Originally posted by molive
Piquet, oh well, we all know he aint at Renault to really be a match to Alonso. Regardless, he has shown that, once he knows well the track (which was the case in Barcelona) he run close to FA. Still, I admit he aint impressing and should improve in the next couple races.


I definitely think having done so much winter testing in Barcelona helped him. It did show that under some circumstances he can be close to Alonso. But it's not like it's the first time he goes to Istanbul, he's done GP2 there for two seasons. He should've been quicker.

It seems like he needs to do a ton of laps in an F1 car in a track to be quick there. Unfortunately that's not an option most of the time.

#41 Dudley

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:54

Originally posted by acey
I guess that Sutil isn’t very happy either. Fisi, as expected in a crap car without any expectations, is shining
compared to Sutil. Imagine that people wanted Sutil in the second McLaren not to long ago.


Although it's worth noting that Sutil finished in Turkey whereas Fisi wiped himself out on lap 1 by being a **** in exactly the same manner that he wiped himself out on lap 1 last year being a ****.

#42 Jackman

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:06

Originally posted by Alfisti
Again this weekend. Not one of them was abnle to out qualify their team mate or get in front during the race.

Maybe Davidson or Sato are worth a call?

I'm not sure why you think it would be otherwise: Glock was screwed in qualy, Nakajima has never been a great qualifier but is sharpening up, and Piquet is at Renault. And equally, it has always taken time for guys to get used to F1, and that period is now out to about a year: the problem is BBs have short attention span-itis and seem to demand someone be sacked for running slightly wide at the last corner they saw.

Glock is up against a massive challenge at Toyota: Trulli is probably the most consistently under-rated driver in F1. Nakajima came up too soon and should have done another year in GP2 (although to be fair, he's much less wayward than I expected him to be). Piquet is at Renault and is not ... going to be too quick. I spoke to them all this weekend, and without fail they all said that the challenge from their teammates are huge because the level in F1 is so much higher, that they're still learning, that they would love to get more time in the car: all the things that rookies have always said from year one.

They'll all be fine: look at Kovalainen, who would have won yesterday but for the cut tyre. I know that almost no one looks past the point scores, but they're all working hard and doing good jobs already, and they're all improving every race. Better to have some fresh talent coming in than to keep Barrichello, Fisichella and Coulthard until they get their free bus passes.

#43 CWeil

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:34

Amen as usual, Jackman.

#44 Alfisti

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:24

I understand all that which is why I said "penny pinching" not "underperforming". Mind you, they are 1/20 in qualy and 0/20 at the first corner which is pretty miserable.

Even Kovalainen, he needs to show some spark.

#45 Jackman

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:36

He outqualified his teammate on a heavier fuel load: what more can he do?

#46 Alfisti

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:42

Originally posted by Jackman
He outqualified his teammate on a heavier fuel load: what more can he do?


OK once. Up until this weekend though he's been roundly and soundly beaten by a guy with the same number of GP's.

#47 Jackman

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:50

Off the top of my head it's at least twice, which is not bad after so few races at a team he only joined at the start of the year versus Hamilton being with them in one form or another for a decade or so.

#48 Alfisti

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:57

Random prediction, HK is the new Rubens.

#49 giacomo

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 21:08

Originally posted by Alfisti
Random prediction, HK is the new Rubens.

Making Hamilton the new Schumacher?

#50 Jackman

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 21:52

Originally posted by Alfisti
Random prediction, HK is the new Rubens.

I seriously doubt that: Heikki is probably the most complete driver I've seen coming through GP2 since it began, although Timo would push him pretty hard.