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Is this a Brabahm BT36?


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#1 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 14:55

And if not what sort of Brabham is it? The photos are from 1979 (I think).

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#2 Pedro 917

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 15:10

I'd go for a Brabham BT44, the front wheels on the trailer also make me think in that direction.

#3 Twin Window

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 15:18

I agree with Luc that it's a BT44.

Great pics Gregor - a really unusual setting for an F1 chassis! Is there a story behind them?

#4 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 15:31

I wasn't sure but it now means there is a BT36 missing somewhere in my chain!!

I don't know all the details of (either) the Brabham, hence why the question to try and clarify but it belonged to my late Dad at some stage and that's either the loading or unloading of it at Marshall Wingfield in Temple Fortune, Finchely Road, I thought in 1979 but I'm now not sure of the date because of it not being what I thought. :

#5 alansart

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 15:42

It looked like this.

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#6 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by alansart
It looked like this.

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Lovely looking car. I vaguely remember "a Brabham" that Dad had and the nose was different to the picture; it had slats in the front wings. Was there more than one type of BT44?

#7 David M. Kane

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 16:01

That would be a BT-42 I believe.

#8 alansart

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 16:02

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


Lovely looking car. I vaguely remember "a Brabham" that Dad had and the nose was different to the picture; it had slats in the front wings. Was there more than one type of BT44?


That will be the BT42

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#9 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 16:45

Yes, that's how I remember it.

So, from my original pictures can we tell if it is a BT42 or a BT44?

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 17:09

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
Yes, that's how I remember it.

So, from my original pictures can we tell if it is a BT42 or a BT44?


Not easily, the tubs were (AFAIK) virtually identical and some 42s were upgraded to very near BT44 spec - I think there's even been some confusion over some of the privateer 'BT44s'! The slatted nose would suggest BT42 though.

#11 jorism

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 17:11

BT42 Monaco GP Historique 2006:
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BT44:
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So if you look to the area around the suspension I would conclude it's a BT42.

#12 Cirrus

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 17:45

The BT42 had outboard front suspension, whereas the BT44 had a much more complex rising-rate arrangement. The holes on the front sides of the tub, and the number of rivets in that area would suggest that there is a fair amount of structure (necessary for the rising rate setup) behind the panel. The BT42 in the Monaco pics does not apear to have those holes. Simon Hadfield rebuilt that BT42, so could probably confirm.

Just so you know, Gregor, the BT35 was a spaceframe car with a much narrower chassis. It was produced as a F3 and Atlantic/FB car, with a couple of hillclimb versions as well.

#13 alansart

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 17:53

Originally posted by Cirrus
Just so you know, Gregor, the BT35 was a spaceframe car with a much narrower chassis. It was produced as a F3 and Atlantic/FB car, with a couple of hillclimb versions as well.


Gregor was asking about a BT36, but the BT35 is very similar.

A piccy from Allen Brown's site

http://www.oldracing...-CP71-1000x.jpg

I was at that race (Crystal Palace) as possibly was Gregors dad :)

I can't remember what the support races were.

#14 alansart

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 18:06

Originally posted by Cirrus
The BT42 had outboard front suspension, whereas the BT44 had a much more complex rising-rate arrangement. The holes on the front sides of the tub, and the number of rivets in that area would suggest that there is a fair amount of structure (necessary for the rising rate setup) behind the panel. The BT42 in the Monaco pics does not apear to have those holes. Simon Hadfield rebuilt that BT42, so could probably confirm.


The front suspension on all jorism's pics looks identical. The BT44 in my photo (taken at Silverstone 75) shows holes in the top of the chassis for the shock absorber mounts and holes in the side for the shock to pass through. Gregor's car looks the same.

Mind you, my photo was of a spare car left for us punters to take photos of. Was it a 42 pretending to be a 44?

#15 LOLE

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 22:49

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#16 Michael Clark

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 22:59

The BT43?

#17 Twin Window

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 00:39

Here's the BT43 for those who can spot such differenciea! (ie not me!)

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#18 alansart

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:02

Originally posted by Michael Clark
The BT43?


Isn't the BT43 supposed to have been dumped in the Thames?

http://forums.autosp...ht=Brabham BT43

#19 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:11

Originally posted by alansart


Gregor was asking about a BT36, but the BT35 is very similar.

A piccy from Allen Brown's site

http://www.oldracing...-CP71-1000x.jpg

I was at that race (Crystal Palace) as possibly was Gregors dad :)

I can't remember what the support races were.


In 1971 Dad raced at CP three times, so depends when it was but twice in the Escort Mexico and once in the Viva GT. Slightly OT but I notice in the latest Motor Sport Mr Scheckter isn't too forthcoming on his year in Mexicos in 1971!!

So it seems like it's a BT42?? I remembered last night that Dad had a model of the Brabham made; I've got it in a box somewhere, I'll dig it out and see if there is anything on that but from memory it's just a plain white model. I also seem to remember there being a John Surtees link; is that possible?

I did wonder if it had belonged to John Wingfield as he mostly raced Brabhams but I think Dad got it after his accident. Unfortunately I don't think there's any of his family still around to ask.

Also, I read that Thames story a while ago, wow if true - You would have thought Mr E would have dredged it up seeing as he seems to own most Brabhams in existance.

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#20 Mallory Dan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 12:35

Interesting issue this. Why would a BT42/44, be around the Marshall Wingfield premises. I'm sure neither John nor Gerry ever raced anything like this, and of course by 79, John had been dead for 3 years. Is the car the ex-Hexagon BT42, that in 1976 raced in G8 with Guy Edwards. I can't recall any other such Brabhams being 'loose' in Britain in the late 70s.

#21 Twin Window

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 13:00

Originally posted by Mallory Dan

I can't recall any other such Brabhams being 'loose' in Britain in the late 70s.

There was this one in '76, but I guess that was more of a visitor...

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Although, unlike (IIRC) Guy Edwards' example, this one does have a white monocoque...

#22 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 13:16

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Interesting issue this. Why would a BT42/44, be around the Marshall Wingfield premises.


Because (I think I'm right in saying Gregor!) Gerry was a motor trader and would buy or sell anything motor related. He often had ads in Autosport offering all sorts of cars.

#23 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 13:28

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Interesting issue this. Why would a BT42/44, be around the Marshall Wingfield premises. I'm sure neither John nor Gerry ever raced anything like this, and of course by 79, John had been dead for 3 years. Is the car the ex-Hexagon BT42, that in 1976 raced in G8 with Guy Edwards. I can't recall any other such Brabhams being 'loose' in Britain in the late 70s.


I can sort of answer that and is also why I am confused as to what car it is.

Dad wrote (in Old Motor I think) in 1979 about classics and investments for the future (quite interesting some of the cars he picked!!) and he said that he had an ex-F1 Brabham (I don't think it says what type) minus engine as he reckoned the cars would increase in value over the years and once the DFV had stopped being used competitively they would be cheap to pick up.

Now this is where I am confused, as I have an invoice/receipt for the sale of a Brabham BT36 (BT38, again will check when I get home), so is this the same car and a typo or was it two cars and if so what happened to the BT42.

The car in the photos was definitely Dad's and was for keeping (It was in the garage at home for a bit, next to Dad's Costin-bodied Lister Jag).

Also, Marshall Wingfield did buy and sell a lot of racecars (I wrote about the BRM story in the Transporters thread)

EDITED: To say I've just seen Andrew K's post and definitely agreed.

#24 alansart

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


Now this is where I am confused, as I have an invoice/receipt for the sale of a Brabham BT36 (BT38, again will check when I get home), so is this the same car and a typo or was it two cars and if so what happened to the BT42.


The BT36 and BT38 were both F2 cars and not the one shown on the trailer.

#25 jph

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 14:53

Didn't John Wingfield race a Brabham BT36? Possible explanation for a sale invoice for such a car?

#26 Mallory Dan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 16:42

Yes John W did race a BT36, also a BT40 later. From his purchase of one of the first RT1s, is it fair to assume he was a friend/fan of Ron T? He may well have had earlier Brabhams too, this is before my time tho'!

#27 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:08

:clap: :clap:

With the info above, going back over what I have "filed" away, checking Alen Brown's great website, the article by Dad in Old Motor and correspondance between Dad and Charles/Chuck Nicholson I think the pictures must be the Brabham BT42, chassis number 2, that Dad sold in 1982.

I think what confused me was the BT41 that Dad bought (which for some reason I don't seem to be able to find any information on), as I have no idea why he bought it and why he had it invoiced to home and who A.W.Brown is. Did John Wingfield race a BT41 in 1973? If so, I wonder why it wasn't invoiced to John or Marshall Wingfield as a business.

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Thank you everyone for your help, as I am comfortable to file the photos as this car now. Only another few thousand photos to go and to find out more about this BT41 Formula 3 car.

#28 Cirrus

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:57

I have no idea why he bought it and why he had it invoiced to home and who A.W.Brown is



Wasn't AW Brown known as "Monkey" Brown? I think he was a car dealer of some sort. Was this car raced by Damien Magee? Something in my mind links "Monkey" Brown, Damien Magee and a BT41...

#29 Chris Townsend

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:52

Spot on Cirrus
Damien Magee raced a Brabham BT41 in F3, entered by Marshall Wingfield, in 1973. The car debuted at Silverstone 9 April, which ties in nicely with the date on the MRD invoice. 'Monkey' Brown was involved a lot of support for Magee from this season onward, so I guess he put some real money to help buy it.

Gregor, if you ever find paperwork that identifies who that car was sold to, probably in 1974/75, maybe to Andy McGregor, it would be good to know about it.

#30 Mallory Dan

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:54

Yeah I think you're dead right Alan, AW Brown was 'Monkey' and he was connected at this time with both Mad Dog Magee and Bernie E, the latter seemed to be trying to get Magee drives in this era. I don't think John W ever used a BT41.

Thats fascinating re the BT42, Gregor. If I read it right, your Dad bought it (from RAM/MacDonald?) in I guess around 1977-78, then sold it onto Chuck Nicholson in '82, the latter being a mate of TWR's IIRC. I wonder what Chuck ever did with it, don't think he ever raced it.

#31 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:35

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Spot on Cirrus
Damien Magee raced a Brabham BT41 in F3, entered by Marshall Wingfield, in 1973. The car debuted at Silverstone 9 April, which ties in nicely with the date on the MRD invoice. 'Monkey' Brown was involved a lot of support for Magee from this season onward, so I guess he put some real money to help buy it.

Gregor, if you ever find paperwork that identifies who that car was sold to, probably in 1974/75, maybe to Andy McGregor, it would be good to know about it.


I do recall a Monkey Brown but didn't know real name was A.W.Brown. Who was/is Damien Magee? I don't recognise his name.

I do have all the Marshall Wingfield sales ledgers from 1973 up to 1986 so I'll have a look in there to see if there is anything but this looks like it didn't go "through the books" for some reason.

#32 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:39

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Thats fascinating re the BT42, Gregor. If I read it right, your Dad bought it (from RAM/MacDonald?) in I guess around 1977-78, then sold it onto Chuck Nicholson in '82, the latter being a mate of TWR's IIRC. I wonder what Chuck ever did with it, don't think he ever raced it.


That's what it looks like but I suppose only Dad knows for sure!! Chuck was a friend of Dad's; Dad prepared his Zephyr (and I think Mk2 Jag that Dad raced) in Classic Saloons in the mid/late '70s. It was also Chuck that drove Dad's Dolomite in 1979 after Dad's accident at the GP. I think Chuck then did go off with Mr W and raced Rovers and Jaguars; not sure what he did after that or if he is still around.

Who was John MacDonald?

#33 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:43

But is "Charles J Nickerson" (as on Gregor's letter, above) the same person as Chuck Nicholson?

#34 RTH

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:46

Yes it is. He used to race under that pseudenym for family . business. tax etc reasons or something like that.

#35 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:49

OK - thanks, Richard!

#36 Mallory Dan

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:49

I'm fairly sure Charles Nickerson and Chuck Nicholson were one and the same. He was later involved with the Phoenix/Prost/Arrows F1 effort thats being discussed on here now. John MacDonald was a North London dealer/racer, and later team owner of RAM, that being he and Mick Ralph.

He ran cars in the British F5000, then G8, the F1 series through the 70s, with some success, then went GP racing, again with RAM, with less. A book on/by John Mac would be very interesting.

#37 rateus

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 13:05

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall

Who was/is Damien Magee? I don't recognise his name.


For more on Magee, see http://www.forix.com/8w/magee.html - even the F3 Brabham gets a mention near the bottom.

#38 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 13:14

There's lots of inter-winding stories here, brilliant, learn something new every day!!

According to Allen Brown's website BT42/2 is in America now; I'm not sure how often Allen posts on here but maybe he could let us know a bit more on it's current situation, if indeed the photos definitely are BT42/2 but I think it's safe to say they are.

I wonder what relationship Dad had with John MacDonald other than maybe motor traders in the same area so did business together.

Slightly off topic but it seems like Dad did a lot of stuff with Brabham, firstly racing the BT8 at Spa in 1970, then the cars John Wingfield raced, then the BT41 and the BT42 and then his relationship with Middlebridge in the early 1990s (see my nosecone thread).

#39 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 13:23

Originally posted by rateus


For more on Magee, see http://www.forix.com/8w/magee.html - even the F3 Brabham gets a mention near the bottom.


That's great, thanks, "Mad Dog" rings a bell somewhere in my mind (will check my magazines when I get home) and the bit at the end of the article with the F5000 could be the one Dad was supposed to test/race, not sure though. I'm still unsure as to why Dad was invloved though; he was friendly with FW (both being North London/Harrow/Wembley people) and having many mutual friends and dealer contacts.

Are Monkey Brown, Damien Magee or John MacDonald still around?

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#40 Red Socks

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 13:54

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
A book on/by John Mac would be very interesting.



You bet !!

#41 alansart

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
There's lots of inter-winding stories here, brilliant, learn something new every day!!


So do we.

Most of us know quite a bit of your Dads exploits on the track but not so much of his business life.

It's fascinating seeing some of the cars he was involved in :)

#42 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 17:15

Gregor , very much fun to see the old invoices and letters as well as rest of course ! :smoking:

#43 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 19:20

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#44 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 09:13

Originally posted by alansart
So do we.

Most of us know quite a bit of your Dads exploits on the track but not so much of his business life.

It's fascinating seeing some of the cars he was involved in :)


Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
Gregor , very much fun to see the old invoices and letters as well as rest of course ! :smoking:


Its great for me as I have all this information and it's not always easy to link it together; Rich Harman has recently helped me do that with the Briggs Cunnigham Dad tested and now you guys have helped with the Brabham, excellent.

Luckily Dad kept all his sales ledgers and the majority of letters (There's some great fanmail!!). The ledgers are really good as not only do they include registration, chassis and engine numbers but also previous owner and address, current owner and address and buyer's name and address as well as price bought and sold for. The other day I was able to help the Droop Snoot Group track 12 cars that they didn't know previously existed and upset someone when I told him how much Dad had bought his Sportshatch for before he sold it to him!! :stoned:

#45 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 09:14

Originally posted by Alan Cox
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Great pictures Alan. I wonder why/when the nosecone changed and what nosecone the car had on it when Dad bought and sold it; anyone got any pictures from the Donington collection 1981/82?

#46 alansart

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 09:40

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


Great pictures Alan. I wonder why/when the nosecone changed and what nosecone the car had on it when Dad bought and sold it; anyone got any pictures from the Donington collection 1981/82?


It's a BT44 nose.

#47 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 12:53

Blimey, I go on holiday for a week or so and miss all this!

Yes, this is BT42/2. It was owned by Gerry Marshall in early 1980 when it first appeared in the Donington Museum but I had no note of it between AW 'Monkey' Brown buying it from RAM in the autumn of 1976 and it appearing in Donington.

Nicholson sold it to Ken Moore in September 1982 and it was used in historic racing in 1983 and 1984. It then went to Bobby Howlings and he sold it to Phil Reilly in California in 1986. Phil had been under the impression he was buying a BT44 and spent many years rebuilding it to BT44 spec. He still had it in October 1996 but that's the last I have on it. Leftover BT42 bits had parted company with it since the rebuild and these parts went into "another" BT42 in the US.

Allen

#48 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 13:03

Gregor - have you established who Gerry bought the BT42 from?

#49 David M. Kane

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 13:50

Phil Reilly still has the car, check www.historicgrandprix.com.

#50 Alan Cox

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 16:54

Apologies for the poor shot, but for the sake of completeness, here is Damien Magee in BT42-2 at the 1976 International Trophy

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